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Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #26
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    can you ask the bam files anlaysis experts in anthrogenica
    to have a look on this dude

    R10667- 171 AD wels austria
    (he is an outlier autosomally he cluster with canry islanders he could be e-m81 or the first e-m81 from roman period europe)
    Of course broski. On it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamm View Post
    R10667 (North African Austrian sample): yDNA: I2a mtDNA: L6b
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  2. #27
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Rare e-fgc7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Of course broski. On it.





    thanks man
    interesting for sure very european y haplogroup
    and an african mtdna or north african mtdna

    he could have been a roman soldier wels was in roman frontier
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

  3. #28
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks man
    interesting for sure very european y haplogroup
    and an african mtdna or north african mtdna

    he could have been a roman soldier wels was in roman frontier
    Yep quite surprising haplogroup indeed.

    Also, really hope they find the Naissus bam file, cause if it is E-V13 it might vindicate some people on the forum, if not it will add to the mystery of E-V13.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    R3745 (Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia, 1878.25bp): https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30977/, there we have for the first time an ancient V13 from Croatia! He belongs to the old PH1246 group which is prominent in the Western-Balkans.


    Edit, I checked it deeper, and it belongs to FTDNA clade E-BY66293, this also has a Syrian, a Brit and a German.
    Exiting. Now I hope the members more read on cultures give context on the sample.

  5. #30
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Samples from Algeria

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R10760 36 74,46% 36,1898 5,4108 Necropole_Orientale Algeria
    R10766 134 87,77% 36,1898 5,4108 Necropole_Orientale Algeria
    R10770 146 50,17% 36,1898 5,4108 Necropole_Orientale Algeria


    Samples from Armenia

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R11675 -1407 66,28% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11545 -1328 63,14% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11668 -1132 14,73% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11536 -985 59,87% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11535 -786 62,54% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11540 -391 57,34% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11546 -77 64,10% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11541 9 59,75% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11651 71 60,36% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11653 71 87,27% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11655 71 77,67% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11678 71 66,13% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11713 71 84,58% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11714 71 70,75% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11544 479 58,66% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11543 480 74,31% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11538 488 54,38% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia
    R11542 488 57,39% 40,6885 43,8493 Beniamin Armenia


    Samples from Austria



    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R10657 76 64,70% 48,3099 16,3238 Klosterneuburg Austria
    R10659 76 73,48% 48,3099 16,3238 Klosterneuburg Austria
    R10667 171 85,35% 48,1654 14,0366 Wels Austria
    R10668 188 86,66% 48,1654 14,0366 Wels Austria
    R10656 217 52,02% 48,3099 16,3238 Klosterneuburg Austria
    R10658 217 54,55% 48,3099 16,3238 Klosterneuburg Austria
    R10660 217 87,66% 48,3099 16,3238 Klosterneuburg Austria
    R10670 271 89,46% 48,1654 14,0366 Wels Austria
    R10654 333 87,27% 48,3099 16,3238 Klosterneuburg Austria
    R10666 716 87,10% 48,1654 14,0366 Wels Austria
    R10665 717 86,68% 48,1654 14,0366 Wels Austria


    Samples from France

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R11563 187 63,59% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11552 272 59,63% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11553 272 64,02% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11554 272 63,24% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11555 272 48,51% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11559 272 73,75% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11561 272 64,87% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11556 280 35,14% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R1874 329 61,05% 49,611502 22,97416 Vendeuil_Caply_LesMarmousets France
    R11550 331 74,46% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11558 331 59,44% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11560 334 56,25% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R11557 337 71,66% 48,7327 7,0526 Sarrebourg France
    R2057 470 44,37% 49,100115 6,179059 Metz_Sablon France
    R2058 470 44,61% 49,100115 6,179059 Metz_Sablon France
    R2055 492 57,41% 49,119677 6,174949 Metz_Lunette France
    R2065 1346 60,84% 49,115262 6,169192 Metz_SaintPierre France
    R2066 1346 51,16% 49,115262 6,169192 Metz_SaintPierre France


    Samples from Germany

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R11866 450 23,89% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany
    R11867 450 34,81% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany
    R11868 450 58,35% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany
    R11872 450 47,74% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany
    R11873 450 46,48% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany
    R11875 450 54,83% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany
    R11877 450 14,51% 51,109 10,9956 Hassleben Germany


    Samples from Italy

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R1555 146 51,40% 43,7237164 12,6346536 Urbino_Bivio Italy
    R1556 151 52,34% 43,7237164 12,6346536 Urbino_Bivio Italy
    R1557 151 50,06% 43,7237164 12,6346536 Urbino_Bivio Italy
    R1554 173 52,96% 43,7237164 12,6346536 Urbino_Bivio Italy
    R11109 201 52,86% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11111 201 68,46% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11112 201 65,23% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11113 201 67,63% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11115 201 66,34% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11116 201 62,16% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11117 201 58,51% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11118 201 80,11% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11119 201 60,80% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11120 201 66,28% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R11121 201 60,83% 41,7621 12,2491 Isola_Sacra Italy
    R1291 950 53,55% 41,8965 12,4719 Palazzo_della_Cancelleria Italy
    R1292 950 44,79% 41,8965 12,4719 Palazzo_della_Cancelleria Italy
    R1294 950 46,33% 41,8965 12,4719 Palazzo_della_Cancelleria Italy
    R1223 1485 48,30% 41,8965 12,4719 Palazzo_della_Cancelleria Italy
    R1225 1485 53,97% 41,8965 12,4719 Palazzo_della_Cancelleria Italy


    Samples from Lebanon

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R12229 488 78,40% 33,8522 35,8292 EjJaouze Lebanon
    R12233 490 33,44% 33,8522 35,8292 EjJaouze Lebanon
    R3477 500 49,27% 33,622519 35,499985 Chhim Lebanon
    R3476 505 62,17% 33,622519 35,499985 Chhim Lebanon
    R12246 599 33,96% 33,8522 35,8292 EjJaouze Lebanon
    R9818 610 55,33% 33,622519 35,499985 Chhim Lebanon
    R12245 620 34,39% 33,8522 35,8292 EjJaouze Lebanon
    R9823 624 67,59% 33,622519 35,499985 Chhim Lebanon
    R3473 705 54,46% 33,622519 35,499985 Chhim Lebanon


    Samples from Lithuania

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R10840 339 52,47% 54,687157 25,279652 Bailuliai Lithuania
    R10830 468 55,19% 54,8985 23,9036 Marvele Lithuania
    R10832 468 47,05% 54,8985 23,9036 Marvele Lithuania
    R10836 468 49,21% 54,8985 23,9036 Marvele Lithuania
    R10838 468 56,32% 54,8985 23,9036 Marvele Lithuania


    Samples from Montenegro

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R3481 266 56,57% 42,466869 19,266164 Doclea_Bjelovine Montenegro
    R3478 795 62,04% 42,466869 19,266164 Doclea_Bjelovine Montenegro
    R9919 963 65,82% 42,466869 19,266164 Doclea_Bjelovine Montenegro
    R9918 1074 56,83% 42,466869 19,266164 Doclea_Bjelovine Montenegro
    R3482 1089 68,12% 42,466869 19,266164 Doclea_Bjelovine Montenegro
    R9920 1102 53,04% 42,466869 19,266164 Doclea_Bjelovine Montenegro


    Samples from Poland

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R10620 12 43,14% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10625 85 59,08% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10626 85 53,76% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10631 85 47,22% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10633 85 64,28% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10634 85 62,64% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10636 85 59,83% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R11391 85 39,80% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland
    R10618 150 57,86% 54,1176 19,5742 Weklice Poland


    Samples from Portugal

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R10499 331 81,68% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10508 337 66,89% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10487 337 66,13% 40,099444 -8,490556 Conimbriga Portugal
    R10488 337 57,83% 40,099444 -8,490556 Conimbriga Portugal
    R10500 426 53,65% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10501 426 64,40% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10502 426 71,97% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10506 426 77,69% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10507 426 50,92% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10503 518 88,61% 38,7261 -9,3653 Miroico Portugal
    R10494 781 86,54% 38,8803 -7,1637 MontedaNora Portugal
    R10496 829 85,03% 38,8803 -7,1637 MontedaNora Portugal
    R10491 832 82,74% 38,8803 -7,1637 MontedaNora Portugal


    Samples from Sardinia

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R11828 -1050 60,75% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia
    R11829 -957 62,15% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia
    R11835 -788 65,46% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia
    R11836 124 62,44% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia
    R11834 182 67,23% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia
    R11832 294 63,05% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia
    R11833 313 64,11% 40,5938 8,2045 Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia Sardinia


    Samples from Slovakia

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R2200 4 68,45% 49,2056 18,5662 Bytca_Hrabove Slovakia
    R2201 4 51,52% 49,2056 18,5662 Bytca_Hrabove Slovakia
    R2202 25 52,26% 49,065963 18,205994 Mikusovce Slovakia
    R2204 150 65,74% 48,3175 16,9829 Zohor Slovakia
    R2208 300 55,39% 48,337073 18,356218 Tes_Mlynany Slovakia
    R2209 400 70,03% 48,337073 18,356218 Tes_Mlynany Slovakia
    R2210 400 57,25% 48,337073 18,356218 Tes_Mlynany Slovakia
    R2211 400 69,12% 48,337073 18,356218 Tes_Mlynany Slovakia
    R2206 450 58,34% 48,337073 18,356218 Tes_Mlynany Slovakia
    R2207 450 50,90% 48,337073 18,356218 Tes_Mlynany Slovakia


    Samples from Slovenia

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R10477 286 56,42% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia
    R10471 291 40,49% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia
    R10469 296 43,59% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia
    R10473 313 42,19% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia
    R10467 327 67,58% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia
    R10478 329 53,76% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia
    R10474 331 47,92% 46,0569 14,5058 Emona Slovenia


    Samples from Syria

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R3359 754 55,78% 34,973503 40,555681 Tell_Masaikh Syria
    R3361 1220 65,62% 34,973503 40,555681 Tell_Masaikh Syria


    Samples from Croatia

    SAMPLE DATE COVERAGE LATITUDE LONGITUDE LOCALITY COUNTRY
    R3745 72 58,46% 44,114352 15,227943 Zadar_Hypo_banka Croatia
    R3743 146 54,12% 44,101034 15,279107 Zadar_Ulica Croatia
    R3744 146 47,78% 44,101034 15,279107 Zadar_Ulica Croatia
    R3670 168 35,99% 43,51859 16,13651 Trogir_Policija Croatia
    R3665 171 38,20% 43,524984 16,252825 Trogir_Dragulin Croatia
    R3746 177 63,56% 44,1141 15,233055 Zadar_Poliklinika Croatia
    R3747 177 65,64% 44,1141 15,233055 Zadar_Poliklinika Croatia
    R3742 177 46,74% 44,101034 15,279107 Zadar_Relja Croatia
    R3655 220 45,18% 45,550532 18,678046 Osijek Croatia
    R3656 280 49,81% 45,550532 18,678046 Osijek Croatia
    R3657 280 44,67% 45,550532 18,678046 Osijek Croatia
    R2041 303 50,40% 45,464666 16,377654 Sisak_Pogorelec Croatia
    R3659 313 44,68% 45,767834 16,123606 Scitarjevo Croatia
    R2040 324 46,78% 45,464666 16,377654 Sisak_Pogorelec Croatia
    R2042 327 45,74% 45,464666 16,377654 Sisak_Pogorelec Croatia
    R3542 330 57,06% 45,7729 18,6108 Beli_Manastir Croatia
    R2050 468 59,29% 45,2039 14,5437 Omišalj-Mirine Croatia
    R2051 468 48,92% 45,2039 14,5437 Omišalj-Mirine Croatia
    R2053 468 65,65% 45,2039 14,5437 Omišalj-Mirine Croatia
    R3545 487 56,41% 43,6076 16,7143 Gardun Croatia
    R3660 497 49,88% 45,767834 16,123606 Scitarjevo Croatia
    R3685 500 56,14% 43,616374 16,801661 Velic Croatia
    R3543 516 60,75% 43,6076 16,7143 Gardun Croatia
    R3547 571 57,30% 45,41 13,66194 Novo_selo_Bunje Croatia
    R3544 575 61,45% 43,6076 16,7143 Gardun Croatia
    R2045 577 42,75% 45,454732 13,518361 Umag_Sipar Croatia
    R3662 599 48,79% 45,467293 13,506565 Sipar Croatia
    R3664 751 56,39% 45,467293 13,506565 Sipar Croatia
    R3663 781 41,88% 45,467293 13,506565 Sipar Croatia




  6. #31
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    That looks like Liburnian territory. During Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age Liburni got affected by the Urnfield migration attested in their bi-ritualism.

    Sineva KukočUniversity of Zadar, Department of Archaeology, Zadar


    Abstract


    In the northern Dalmatia region where there were only two cultural systems throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages, four moments are crucial in the use of cremation ritual during the 2nd/1st centuries BC: in the Early Bronze Age (Cetina culture: Ervenik, Podvršje − Matakov brig, Nadin, Krneza − Duševića glavica), in the Early Iron Age (Nadin, mound 13, Krneza − Jokina glavica), in Hellenism (Dragišić, gr. 4 A-C), and finally, for the first time very intensively during the Romanization of Liburnians. Newly discovered cremations in ceramic urns (gr. 3, 13) in burial mound 13 (9th – 6th cent. BC) from Nadin near Benkovac are the first example (after Dragišić) of Liburnian cremation; more precisely, burial mound 13 with 19 graves represents a form of biritualism in the Liburnians. It is also an example of the greatest number of Liburnian burials under a mound, with crouched, extended and cremated skeletons and many ritual remains (traces of fire on the ground and on animal bones: funerary feast?; numerous remains of ceramic vessels (libation?). Although typical Liburnian burial "inherits" many formal and symbolic elements (stone cist, enclosing wall, libation, etc.) from the (Early) Bronze Age (and probably Eneolithic as well), cremation in the Liburnian burial mound 13 from Nadin cannot be explained in terms of continuity from the Early Bronze Age; links are missing, particularly those from the Middle Bronze Age in the study of the cultural dynamics of the 2nd millennium BC in the northern Dalmatia region. Squat form of the Nadin urns with a distinct neck has analogies in the Liburnian (Nin) and Daunian funerary pots for burying newborns (ad encytrismos), and also in the typology of pottery (undecorated or decorated) in a wider region (Ruše, V.Gorica, Dalj/Vukovar, Terni II, Este, Bologna I-II, Roma II, Cumae I, Pontecagnano IA, Histrians, etc.), i.e. in the forms widespread from the Danubian region, Alps, and Balkans to the Apennine Peninsula between the Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages (10th/9th – 8th cent. BC). Although appearance of cremation in the Picenian culture has not been completely clear (Fermo necropolis, burials from Ancona, Numana, Novilara: graves Servici, 29, 39 from Piceno II-III, from the 8th/7th.cent. BC), Liburnian culture is most similar to the Picenian culture in the Adriatic world by the intensity and period of cremation, and form of urns. Specifically, decorated urn in a male grave 52 from Numana from the 9th century BC is analogous to the Nadin urns. This grave from Numana is usually mentioned as an example of trans-Adriatic, Picenian-Liburnian (Balkanic) i.e. Picenian-Histrian relations. Liburnian urns are similar to the urn from the grave in Numana, 495, Davanzali, from the late 9th century by their profilation. "Genesis" of both Liburnian and Picenian cremation is unknown. They are two convergent phenomena, reflecting the "unity" of the late Urnenfelder world of the 10th/9th centuries BC and resulting from cultural-ethnical contacts in a "closed circle" from the Danubian region – southeastern Alpine region – Apennine Peninsula, supported by smaller migrations in the first centuries of the Iron Age, from the trans-Adriatic direction in Picenum (with definite Villanova influence), and in Liburnia probably from the hinterland. In this Adriatic circle in the first centuries of the Iron Age multiple cultural contacts between Liburnians, Histrians and Picenians are for now a good (initial) context for a more detailed interpretation of Liburnian cremation. Despite the aforementioned, it is not necessary to relate directly the structure (ritual, goods) of gr. 52, Numana – Qualiotti to Histrian patterns nor the grave 495, Numana-Davanzali to the Iapodian ones. Cremated Liburnian burial from the Early Iron Age represents a certain continuity and a "reflection" of the late Urnenfelder circle, which was manifested in different ways in the beginnings of the Liburnian, Picenian, and Histrian cultures and elsewhere. The latest excavations on a planned Liburnian-Roman necropolis in Nadin (Nedinum) provided us with new information about the spatial, chronological and symbolical relation (religious, social) between the autochtonous Liburnian and Roman component in the period of Romanization of northern Dalmatia.

    https://morepress.unizd.hr/journals/index.php/adriatica/article/view/1071
    But, a single sample so far, we need to wait for more in order to make conclusion, so far E-V13 in a pack we see in Viminacium and the most in Psenicevo Culture (which is descendand of the true originators of Urnfield Culture, Gava).

  7. #32
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    We have several explanations for that E-V13 (non Z5017/Z5018) in Zadar:

    1. Cetina Culture
    2. Vatin Culture contribution on Proto-Illyrians, as attested archeologically, though Vatin people were common people and not part of the elite. Their northern kinsmen culture vanished, they either ran away or were replaced by the incoming Channeled-Ware who were battling in and around Danube with the Tumulus people.
    3. Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age Urnfield Culture.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    3745.bam looks Italian:


    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Europe_ITA_Liguria
    1.028720
    Europe_ITA_Lombardy
    1.046060
    Europe_ITA_Veneto
    1.060488
    Europe_ITA_Tuscany
    1.094382
    (...)


    This must be R3745.


    =====


    R9918 from Montenegro looks like modern South Slavs already:


    Sample 9918.txt
    Amerindian 0
    Arabian 0
    Armenian 5.9
    Basque 0.14
    Central African 0
    Central Euro 8.96
    East African 0
    East Asian 0
    East Balkan 5.38
    East Central Asian 0
    East Central Euro 17.14
    East Med 1.42
    Eastern Euro 11.48
    Fennoscandian 4.69
    French 1.97
    Iberian 8.92
    Indo-Chinese 0.5
    Italian 15.29
    Malayan 0
    Near Eastern 2.17
    North African 0
    North Atlantic 7.58
    North Caucasian 0
    North Sea 5.42
    Northeast African 0
    Oceanian 0
    Omotic 0
    Pygmy 0
    Siberian 0
    South Asian 0
    South Central Asian 0
    South Chinese 0
    Volga-Ural 0
    West African 0
    West Caucasian 1.34
    West Med 1.71
    It seems the autosomal matches the historical context quite well. Pre migration Balkans looking North Italian, with post migration matching the admixture event. Asked Tomenable to run the AC-BC calculation, to see if it can tell us what the migration population would have resembled.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    R3745 is the first published E-V13 in the coastal western Balkans in antiquity, one of the oldest E-V13 in the Balkans and the oldest sample from Roman Iader. A brief summary of the historical context of the area.





    The inhabitants of Iader known as Iadestini, Iadastini (Latin), Iadasinoi (Greek). Iader is located in southern Liburnia and is one of the areas of Liburnia where Illyrian tribes had moved since the Early Iron Age. Thus, the Iadestini are referred to as one of the Illyrian people in southern Liburnia in ancient sources.


    ‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
    Danijel Dzino
    Dans Dialogues d'histoire ancienne 2014/2 (40/2), pages 45 à 65


    The Iadastini are mentioned for the first time in the 4th century BCE.






    In the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax:







    (Map from Sasel-Kos (2013), The 'great lake' and the Autariatai in Pseudo-Skylax)

    Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.

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    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.
    He does not plot autosomally with the Iron Age Illyrian samples. This is not a BCE sample or am I missing something here. Also funny how all of these J2b-L283 core Illyrian Iron Age samples were not seen as Illyrian by Bruzmi but he is literally over the moon for a much younger AD E1b-V13 sample in the region.

    The Iron Age Illyrian sample plot further north. This sample seems to plot closer to Central Italians as it seems. His clade is also very isolated?

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    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Aparently not. There was a mixup in the bam file names.



    lol
    Doclea sample.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
    I like Doclea as it shows a nice variety of subclades in one place and surprising paternal Illyrian continuity in AD times. One sample is under Z38240 AD continuity Doclea, mod. d. Montenegro R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190 the other under Z638 AD continuity Doclea, mod.d. Montenegro R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

    The J-Z1043 sample is so important for all under Z631, Dajt e mi who are Korbi, I wanted to use a Raven emoji but cannot May not be the Gramps moment you had with that Early Iapygian sample but this is nonetheless really exciting news for me It also proves an East Adriatic and not as some were postulating Celtic? origin am thinking of Ghurier here lol





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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I like Doclea as it shows a nice variety of subclades in one place and surprising paternal Illyrian continuity in AD times. One sample is under Z38240 AD continuity Doclea, mod. d. Montenegro R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190 the other under Z638 AD continuity Doclea, mod.d. Montenegro R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

    The J-Z1043 sample is so important for all under Z631, Dajt e mi who are Korbi, I wanted to use a Raven emoji but cannot May not be the Gramps moment you had with that Early Iapygian sample but this is nonetheless really exciting news for me It also proves an East Adriatic and not as some were postulating Celtic? origin am thinking of Ghurier here lol




    Yep. Feels like discovering an old relative doesn't it? Quite an amazing feeling. Makes this hobby even more rewarding.

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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    As for the E-V13 that is core Illyrian territory. A sample that so far was elusive from the region, being found in the first century CE NW Balkans. That is also the oldest V13 sample from the Balkans or am I missing something?
    Think in that subclade we have Dushmani, some Arberesh as well as some Montenegro or is it Serbian nobility? Not to versed in Balkan clans.
    As for the autosomal. That is exactly what you would expect. The difference from Marche/Tuscany/Lombary can be seen autosomally even among cousins given the current methods/calculators, they really cluster together. Seems a foregone conclusion that pre migration Balkans, at least from the samples we have, was N. Italian like.

    Edit: As for fora politics as you might have noticed, except for my larp hunting I try not to get bothered to much by the politics of it. Each one of the members me included gets things right and wrong depending on the ocassion, I try not to hold grudges. So just because Brumzi said it does not make the sources irrelevant. Shooting down the message because of the messenger is like missing the moon for the finger.

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    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    He does not plot autosomally with the Iron Age Illyrian samples. This is not a BCE sample or am I missing something here. Also funny how all of these J2b-L283 core Illyrian Iron Age samples were not seen as Illyrian by Bruzmi but he is literally over the moon for a much younger AD E1b-V13 sample in the region.

    The Iron Age Illyrian sample plot further north. This sample seems to plot closer to Central Italians as it seems. His clade is also very isolated?
    From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

    But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

    I can see rafc saying that the two other Dalmatian samples were exotic J2a and E-M34, i thought along with E-V13 were just some Roman soldiers, but the E-V13 autosomal plots with Central Italians.

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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

    But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.
    Fully agree. The good news is that not all samples have been analyzed from Croatia and Serbia yet. Including one from Naissus, and I have a feeling, or maybe hope that we do find an E-V13 in Naissus. That would be quite something as far as vindicating some of your theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Fully agree. The good news is that not all samples have been analyzed from Croatia and Serbia yet. Including one from Naissus, and I have a feeling, or maybe hope that we do find an E-V13 in Naissus. That would be quite something as far as vindicating some of your theories.
    Illyrians from Albania logically should plot with Central Italians and those far in South with South Italians and Greeks. But, let's see, perhaps more context gets revealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

    But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

    I can see rafc saying that the two other Dalmatian samples were exotic J2a and E-M34, i thought along with E-V13 were just some Roman soldiers, but the E-V13 autosomal plots with Central Italians.
    There you go and also thanks to Trojet for this nice collection it comes in quite handy at times:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    There you go and also thanks to Trojet for this nice collection it comes in quite handy at times:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5
    Would be really cool if we could do this for V13, and z2103 as well. Such a resource comes in really handy. I am sure Hawk or Riverman knows or can get most of the sample data. Adding G25 coordinates to each point for all three branches would be neat for future reference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The difference from Marche/Tuscany/Lombary can be seen autosomally even among cousins given the current methods/calculators, they really cluster together. Seems a foregone conclusion that pre migration Balkans, at least from the samples we have, was N. Italian like.

    Edit: As for fora politics as you might have noticed, except for my larp hunting I try not to get bothered to much by the politics of it. Each one of the members me included gets things right and wrong depending on the ocassion, I try not to hold grudges. So just because Brumzi said it does not make the sources irrelevant. Shooting down the message because of the messenger is like missing the moon for the finger.
    Neither do I care, keep in mind there was a lot of false accusations made by multiple users against me and I could not care less I am just pointing out the obnoxious double standards some people use in making "conclusions" about facts that are right in their face.

    The Iron Age Illyrian samples from Jazinka etc are more Southern located yet they still plot more Northern just as the MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture for which at this time it is quite clear that our Illyrians show a continuity from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Neither do I care, keep in mind there was a lot of false accusations made by multiple users against me and I could not care less I am just pointing out the obnoxious double standards some people use in making "conclusions" about facts that are right in their face.

    The Iron Age Illyrian samples from Jazinka etc are more Southern located yet they still plot more Northern just as the MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture for which at this time it is quite clear that our Illyrians show a continuity from.
    Trust me I got some white hair dealing with people I disagreed with and even trlls in this hobby over the years. It's always the same, you just get better at separating the wheat from the chaff.

    Ps: It does not help that Albanian conversational style is like a Fus Roh Dah contest / very confrontational.

    As for the more southern shift I think there might be something to it, but I would not make too much of it cause as I said cousin to cousin you can see a difference given how these calculators work.
    One way to "test" it would be to compare all these samples once we have the coordinates in a PCA with contemporary samples from the same burial grounds, and maybe the later samples from nearby, not sure if the E-V13s from Pannonia would help or how much they would fit given the context.

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    I am bit wondering, why would rafc suffer delay on getting the data via FTP? Is it that the BAM files are too big? He is probably using some tool from github repository to deduce the Y-DNA from the BAM files.

    Would be good if they split the sample checks, someone else like Trojet maybe cane check the rest, perhaps there is some kind of download restriction rate on the server. Who knows.

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    Knowing Trojet he is already on it.

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    The E-V13 sample distances doesn't look Central Italian to me mount. He looks North-Italian-like. And i really doubt this sample is from Greek colonizers or from somewhere else, based on this so far, and modern diversity of this particular subclade.

    Distance to: Croatia_Zadar:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_58.46%
    5.25602511 Swiss_Italian
    5.31083798 Italian_Lombardy
    5.80956108 French_Provence_outlier
    6.24121783 Italian_North_Alpine
    6.33566098 Italian_Piedmont
    6.80671727 Italian_Liguria
    6.81546770 Italian_Veneto
    7.38897828 FRA_Var(n=1)
    7.62059709 Italian_North
    7.73773869 Italian_Trentino
    7.90971554 Italian_Emilia
    8.21373240 Italian_Friuli 9.76762510 Portuguese
    What i wonder is the Bronze Age context from which he derives, or whether he was a minority or they were within a reasonable percentage among the Liburni/Veneti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.
    was he a Daorson Illyrian........the most southern to have a permanent fortified town

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson

    https://www.academia.edu/2490281/Cul...nd_Herzegovina
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The E-V13 sample distances doesn't look Central Italian to me mount. He looks North-Italian-like. And i really doubt this sample is from Greek colonizers or from somewhere else, based on this so far, and modern diversity of this particular subclade.



    What i wonder is the Bronze Age context from which he derives, or whether he was a minority or they were within a reasonable percentage among the Liburni/Veneti.
    My bad Hawk I confused him with another sample ID. Yes, he is North Italian like. We would obviously need Iron Age and AD samples from Zadar and the surroundings to determine that. From IA to AD many things can change obviously.

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