Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

[Archetype0ne]

can you ask the bam files anlaysis experts in anthrogenica
to have a look on this dude

R10667- 171 AD wels austria
(he is an outlier autosomally he cluster with canry islanders he could be e-m81 or the first e-m81 from roman period europe)

Of course broski. On it.

R10667 (North African Austrian sample): yDNA: I2a mtDNA: L6b

[kingjohn]

Of course broski. On it.

thanks man
interesting for sure very european y haplogroup
and an african mtdna or north african mtdna
he could have been a roman soldier wels was in roman frontier

[Archetype0ne]

thanks man
interesting for sure very european y haplogroup
and an african mtdna or north african mtdna
he could have been a roman soldier wels was in roman frontier

Yep quite surprising haplogroup indeed.

Also, really hope they find the Naissus bam file, cause if it is E-V13 it might vindicate some people on the forum, if not it will add to the mystery of E-V13.

[Archetype0ne]

R3745 (Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia, 1878.25bp): https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30977/, there we have for the first time an ancient V13 from Croatia! He belongs to the old PH1246 group which is prominent in the Western-Balkans.


Edit, I checked it deeper, and it belongs to FTDNA clade E-BY66293, this also has a Syrian, a Brit and a German.

Exiting. Now I hope the members more read on cultures give context on the sample.

[kingjohn]

Samples from Algeria

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R10760	36	74,46%	36,1898	5,4108	Necropole_Orientale	Algeria
R10766	134	87,77%	36,1898	5,4108	Necropole_Orientale	Algeria
R10770	146	50,17%	36,1898	5,4108	Necropole_Orientale	Algeria

Samples from Armenia

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R11675	-1407	66,28%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11545	-1328	63,14%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11668	-1132	14,73%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11536	-985	59,87%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11535	-786	62,54%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11540	-391	57,34%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11546	-77	64,10%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11541	9	59,75%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11651	71	60,36%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11653	71	87,27%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11655	71	77,67%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11678	71	66,13%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11713	71	84,58%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11714	71	70,75%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11544	479	58,66%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11543	480	74,31%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11538	488	54,38%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia
R11542	488	57,39%	40,6885	43,8493	Beniamin	Armenia

Samples from Austria

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R10657	76	64,70%	48,3099	16,3238	Klosterneuburg	Austria
R10659	76	73,48%	48,3099	16,3238	Klosterneuburg	Austria
R10667	171	85,35%	48,1654	14,0366	Wels	Austria
R10668	188	86,66%	48,1654	14,0366	Wels	Austria
R10656	217	52,02%	48,3099	16,3238	Klosterneuburg	Austria
R10658	217	54,55%	48,3099	16,3238	Klosterneuburg	Austria
R10660	217	87,66%	48,3099	16,3238	Klosterneuburg	Austria
R10670	271	89,46%	48,1654	14,0366	Wels	Austria
R10654	333	87,27%	48,3099	16,3238	Klosterneuburg	Austria
R10666	716	87,10%	48,1654	14,0366	Wels	Austria
R10665	717	86,68%	48,1654	14,0366	Wels	Austria

Samples from France

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R11563	187	63,59%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11552	272	59,63%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11553	272	64,02%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11554	272	63,24%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11555	272	48,51%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11559	272	73,75%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11561	272	64,87%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11556	280	35,14%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R1874	329	61,05%	49,611502	22,97416	Vendeuil_Caply_LesMarmousets	France
R11550	331	74,46%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11558	331	59,44%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11560	334	56,25%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R11557	337	71,66%	48,7327	7,0526	Sarrebourg	France
R2057	470	44,37%	49,100115	6,179059	Metz_Sablon	France
R2058	470	44,61%	49,100115	6,179059	Metz_Sablon	France
R2055	492	57,41%	49,119677	6,174949	Metz_Lunette	France
R2065	1346	60,84%	49,115262	6,169192	Metz_SaintPierre	France
R2066	1346	51,16%	49,115262	6,169192	Metz_SaintPierre	France

Samples from Germany

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R11866	450	23,89%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany
R11867	450	34,81%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany
R11868	450	58,35%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany
R11872	450	47,74%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany
R11873	450	46,48%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany
R11875	450	54,83%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany
R11877	450	14,51%	51,109	10,9956	Hassleben	Germany

Samples from Italy

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R1555	146	51,40%	43,7237164	12,6346536	Urbino_Bivio	Italy
R1556	151	52,34%	43,7237164	12,6346536	Urbino_Bivio	Italy
R1557	151	50,06%	43,7237164	12,6346536	Urbino_Bivio	Italy
R1554	173	52,96%	43,7237164	12,6346536	Urbino_Bivio	Italy
R11109	201	52,86%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11111	201	68,46%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11112	201	65,23%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11113	201	67,63%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11115	201	66,34%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11116	201	62,16%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11117	201	58,51%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11118	201	80,11%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11119	201	60,80%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11120	201	66,28%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R11121	201	60,83%	41,7621	12,2491	Isola_Sacra	Italy
R1291	950	53,55%	41,8965	12,4719	Palazzo_della_Cancelleria	Italy
R1292	950	44,79%	41,8965	12,4719	Palazzo_della_Cancelleria	Italy
R1294	950	46,33%	41,8965	12,4719	Palazzo_della_Cancelleria	Italy
R1223	1485	48,30%	41,8965	12,4719	Palazzo_della_Cancelleria	Italy
R1225	1485	53,97%	41,8965	12,4719	Palazzo_della_Cancelleria	Italy

Samples from Lebanon

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R12229	488	78,40%	33,8522	35,8292	EjJaouze	Lebanon
R12233	490	33,44%	33,8522	35,8292	EjJaouze	Lebanon
R3477	500	49,27%	33,622519	35,499985	Chhim	Lebanon
R3476	505	62,17%	33,622519	35,499985	Chhim	Lebanon
R12246	599	33,96%	33,8522	35,8292	EjJaouze	Lebanon
R9818	610	55,33%	33,622519	35,499985	Chhim	Lebanon
R12245	620	34,39%	33,8522	35,8292	EjJaouze	Lebanon
R9823	624	67,59%	33,622519	35,499985	Chhim	Lebanon
R3473	705	54,46%	33,622519	35,499985	Chhim	Lebanon

Samples from Lithuania

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R10840	339	52,47%	54,687157	25,279652	Bailuliai	Lithuania
R10830	468	55,19%	54,8985	23,9036	Marvele	Lithuania
R10832	468	47,05%	54,8985	23,9036	Marvele	Lithuania
R10836	468	49,21%	54,8985	23,9036	Marvele	Lithuania
R10838	468	56,32%	54,8985	23,9036	Marvele	Lithuania

Samples from Montenegro

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R3481	266	56,57%	42,466869	19,266164	Doclea_Bjelovine	Montenegro
R3478	795	62,04%	42,466869	19,266164	Doclea_Bjelovine	Montenegro
R9919	963	65,82%	42,466869	19,266164	Doclea_Bjelovine	Montenegro
R9918	1074	56,83%	42,466869	19,266164	Doclea_Bjelovine	Montenegro
R3482	1089	68,12%	42,466869	19,266164	Doclea_Bjelovine	Montenegro
R9920	1102	53,04%	42,466869	19,266164	Doclea_Bjelovine	Montenegro

Samples from Poland

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R10620	12	43,14%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10625	85	59,08%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10626	85	53,76%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10631	85	47,22%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10633	85	64,28%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10634	85	62,64%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10636	85	59,83%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R11391	85	39,80%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland
R10618	150	57,86%	54,1176	19,5742	Weklice	Poland

Samples from Portugal

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R10499	331	81,68%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10508	337	66,89%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10487	337	66,13%	40,099444	-8,490556	Conimbriga	Portugal
R10488	337	57,83%	40,099444	-8,490556	Conimbriga	Portugal
R10500	426	53,65%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10501	426	64,40%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10502	426	71,97%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10506	426	77,69%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10507	426	50,92%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10503	518	88,61%	38,7261	-9,3653	Miroico	Portugal
R10494	781	86,54%	38,8803	-7,1637	MontedaNora	Portugal
R10496	829	85,03%	38,8803	-7,1637	MontedaNora	Portugal
R10491	832	82,74%	38,8803	-7,1637	MontedaNora	Portugal

Samples from Sardinia

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R11828	-1050	60,75%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia
R11829	-957	62,15%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia
R11835	-788	65,46%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia
R11836	124	62,44%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia
R11834	182	67,23%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia
R11832	294	63,05%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia
R11833	313	64,11%	40,5938	8,2045	Sant_Imbenia; Sardinia	Sardinia

Samples from Slovakia

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R2200	4	68,45%	49,2056	18,5662	Bytca_Hrabove	Slovakia
R2201	4	51,52%	49,2056	18,5662	Bytca_Hrabove	Slovakia
R2202	25	52,26%	49,065963	18,205994	Mikusovce	Slovakia
R2204	150	65,74%	48,3175	16,9829	Zohor	Slovakia
R2208	300	55,39%	48,337073	18,356218	Tes_Mlynany	Slovakia
R2209	400	70,03%	48,337073	18,356218	Tes_Mlynany	Slovakia
R2210	400	57,25%	48,337073	18,356218	Tes_Mlynany	Slovakia
R2211	400	69,12%	48,337073	18,356218	Tes_Mlynany	Slovakia
R2206	450	58,34%	48,337073	18,356218	Tes_Mlynany	Slovakia
R2207	450	50,90%	48,337073	18,356218	Tes_Mlynany	Slovakia

Samples from Slovenia

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R10477	286	56,42%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia
R10471	291	40,49%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia
R10469	296	43,59%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia
R10473	313	42,19%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia
R10467	327	67,58%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia
R10478	329	53,76%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia
R10474	331	47,92%	46,0569	14,5058	Emona	Slovenia

Samples from Syria

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R3359	754	55,78%	34,973503	40,555681	Tell_Masaikh	Syria
R3361	1220	65,62%	34,973503	40,555681	Tell_Masaikh	Syria

Samples from Croatia

SAMPLE	DATE	COVERAGE	LATITUDE	LONGITUDE	LOCALITY	COUNTRY
R3745	72	58,46%	44,114352	15,227943	Zadar_Hypo_banka	Croatia
R3743	146	54,12%	44,101034	15,279107	Zadar_Ulica	Croatia
R3744	146	47,78%	44,101034	15,279107	Zadar_Ulica	Croatia
R3670	168	35,99%	43,51859	16,13651	Trogir_Policija	Croatia
R3665	171	38,20%	43,524984	16,252825	Trogir_Dragulin	Croatia
R3746	177	63,56%	44,1141	15,233055	Zadar_Poliklinika	Croatia
R3747	177	65,64%	44,1141	15,233055	Zadar_Poliklinika	Croatia
R3742	177	46,74%	44,101034	15,279107	Zadar_Relja	Croatia
R3655	220	45,18%	45,550532	18,678046	Osijek	Croatia
R3656	280	49,81%	45,550532	18,678046	Osijek	Croatia
R3657	280	44,67%	45,550532	18,678046	Osijek	Croatia
R2041	303	50,40%	45,464666	16,377654	Sisak_Pogorelec	Croatia
R3659	313	44,68%	45,767834	16,123606	Scitarjevo	Croatia
R2040	324	46,78%	45,464666	16,377654	Sisak_Pogorelec	Croatia
R2042	327	45,74%	45,464666	16,377654	Sisak_Pogorelec	Croatia
R3542	330	57,06%	45,7729	18,6108	Beli_Manastir	Croatia
R2050	468	59,29%	45,2039	14,5437	Omišalj-Mirine	Croatia
R2051	468	48,92%	45,2039	14,5437	Omišalj-Mirine	Croatia
R2053	468	65,65%	45,2039	14,5437	Omišalj-Mirine	Croatia
R3545	487	56,41%	43,6076	16,7143	Gardun	Croatia
R3660	497	49,88%	45,767834	16,123606	Scitarjevo	Croatia
R3685	500	56,14%	43,616374	16,801661	Velic	Croatia
R3543	516	60,75%	43,6076	16,7143	Gardun	Croatia
R3547	571	57,30%	45,41	13,66194	Novo_selo_Bunje	Croatia
R3544	575	61,45%	43,6076	16,7143	Gardun	Croatia
R2045	577	42,75%	45,454732	13,518361	Umag_Sipar	Croatia
R3662	599	48,79%	45,467293	13,506565	Sipar	Croatia
R3664	751	56,39%	45,467293	13,506565	Sipar	Croatia
R3663	781	41,88%	45,467293	13,506565	Sipar	Croatia

[Hawk]

That looks like Liburnian territory. During Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age Liburni got affected by the Urnfield migration attested in their bi-ritualism.

Sineva KukočUniversity of Zadar, Department of Archaeology, Zadar


Abstract


In the northern Dalmatia region where there were only two cultural systems throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages, four moments are crucial in the use of cremation ritual during the 2nd/1st centuries BC: in the Early Bronze Age (Cetina culture: Ervenik, Podvršje − Matakov brig, Nadin, Krneza − Duševića glavica), in the Early Iron Age (Nadin, mound 13, Krneza − Jokina glavica), in Hellenism (Dragišić, gr. 4 A-C), and finally, for the first time very intensively during the Romanization of Liburnians. Newly discovered cremations in ceramic urns (gr. 3, 13) in burial mound 13 (9th – 6th cent. BC) from Nadin near Benkovac are the first example (after Dragišić) of Liburnian cremation; more precisely, burial mound 13 with 19 graves represents a form of biritualism in the Liburnians. It is also an example of the greatest number of Liburnian burials under a mound, with crouched, extended and cremated skeletons and many ritual remains (traces of fire on the ground and on animal bones: funerary feast?; numerous remains of ceramic vessels (libation?). Although typical Liburnian burial "inherits" many formal and symbolic elements (stone cist, enclosing wall, libation, etc.) from the (Early) Bronze Age (and probably Eneolithic as well), cremation in the Liburnian burial mound 13 from Nadin cannot be explained in terms of continuity from the Early Bronze Age; links are missing, particularly those from the Middle Bronze Age in the study of the cultural dynamics of the 2nd millennium BC in the northern Dalmatia region. Squat form of the Nadin urns with a distinct neck has analogies in the Liburnian (Nin) and Daunian funerary pots for burying newborns (ad encytrismos), and also in the typology of pottery (undecorated or decorated) in a wider region (Ruše, V.Gorica, Dalj/Vukovar, Terni II, Este, Bologna I-II, Roma II, Cumae I, Pontecagnano IA, Histrians, etc.), i.e. in the forms widespread from the Danubian region, Alps, and Balkans to the Apennine Peninsula between the Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages (10th/9th – 8th cent. BC). Although appearance of cremation in the Picenian culture has not been completely clear (Fermo necropolis, burials from Ancona, Numana, Novilara: graves Servici, 29, 39 from Piceno II-III, from the 8th/7th.cent. BC), Liburnian culture is most similar to the Picenian culture in the Adriatic world by the intensity and period of cremation, and form of urns. Specifically, decorated urn in a male grave 52 from Numana from the 9th century BC is analogous to the Nadin urns. This grave from Numana is usually mentioned as an example of trans-Adriatic, Picenian-Liburnian (Balkanic) i.e. Picenian-Histrian relations. Liburnian urns are similar to the urn from the grave in Numana, 495, Davanzali, from the late 9th century by their profilation. "Genesis" of both Liburnian and Picenian cremation is unknown. They are two convergent phenomena, reflecting the "unity" of the late Urnenfelder world of the 10th/9th centuries BC and resulting from cultural-ethnical contacts in a "closed circle" from the Danubian region – southeastern Alpine region – Apennine Peninsula, supported by smaller migrations in the first centuries of the Iron Age, from the trans-Adriatic direction in Picenum (with definite Villanova influence), and in Liburnia probably from the hinterland. In this Adriatic circle in the first centuries of the Iron Age multiple cultural contacts between Liburnians, Histrians and Picenians are for now a good (initial) context for a more detailed interpretation of Liburnian cremation. Despite the aforementioned, it is not necessary to relate directly the structure (ritual, goods) of gr. 52, Numana – Qualiotti to Histrian patterns nor the grave 495, Numana-Davanzali to the Iapodian ones. Cremated Liburnian burial from the Early Iron Age represents a certain continuity and a "reflection" of the late Urnenfelder circle, which was manifested in different ways in the beginnings of the Liburnian, Picenian, and Histrian cultures and elsewhere. The latest excavations on a planned Liburnian-Roman necropolis in Nadin (Nedinum) provided us with new information about the spatial, chronological and symbolical relation (religious, social) between the autochtonous Liburnian and Roman component in the period of Romanization of northern Dalmatia.

https://morepress.unizd.hr/journals/index.php/adriatica/article/view/1071

But, a single sample so far, we need to wait for more in order to make conclusion, so far E-V13 in a pack we see in Viminacium and the most in Psenicevo Culture (which is descendand of the true originators of Urnfield Culture, Gava).

[Hawk]

We have several explanations for that E-V13 (non Z5017/Z5018) in Zadar:

1. Cetina Culture
2. Vatin Culture contribution on Proto-Illyrians, as attested archeologically, though Vatin people were common people and not part of the elite. Their northern kinsmen culture vanished, they either ran away or were replaced by the incoming Channeled-Ware who were battling in and around Danube with the Tumulus people.
3. Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age Urnfield Culture.

[Archetype0ne]

3745.bam looks Italian:


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_ITA_Liguria
1.028720
Europe_ITA_Lombardy
1.046060
Europe_ITA_Veneto
1.060488
Europe_ITA_Tuscany
1.094382
(...)


This must be R3745.


=====


R9918 from Montenegro looks like modern South Slavs already:


Sample 9918.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 5.9
Basque 0.14
Central African 0
Central Euro 8.96
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 5.38
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 17.14
East Med 1.42
Eastern Euro 11.48
Fennoscandian 4.69
French 1.97
Iberian 8.92
Indo-Chinese 0.5
Italian 15.29
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 2.17
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.58
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 5.42
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 1.34
West Med 1.71

It seems the autosomal matches the historical context quite well. Pre migration Balkans looking North Italian, with post migration matching the admixture event. Asked Tomenable to run the AC-BC calculation, to see if it can tell us what the migration population would have resembled.

[Archetype0ne]

R3745 is the first published E-V13 in the coastal western Balkans in antiquity, one of the oldest E-V13 in the Balkans and the oldest sample from Roman Iader. A brief summary of the historical context of the area.





The inhabitants of Iader known as Iadestini, Iadastini (Latin), Iadasinoi (Greek). Iader is located in southern Liburnia and is one of the areas of Liburnia where Illyrian tribes had moved since the Early Iron Age. Thus, the Iadestini are referred to as one of the Illyrian people in southern Liburnia in ancient sources.


‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
Danijel Dzino
Dans Dialogues d'histoire ancienne 2014/2 (40/2), pages 45 à 65


The Iadastini are mentioned for the first time in the 4th century BCE.






In the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax:







(Map from Sasel-Kos (2013), The 'great lake' and the Autariatai in Pseudo-Skylax)

Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.

[mount123]

Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.

He does not plot autosomally with the Iron Age Illyrian samples. This is not a BCE sample or am I missing something here. Also funny how all of these J2b-L283 core Illyrian Iron Age samples were not seen as Illyrian by Bruzmi but he is literally over the moon for a much younger AD E1b-V13 sample in the region.

The Iron Age Illyrian sample plot further north. This sample seems to plot closer to Central Italians as it seems. His clade is also very isolated?

[mount123]

Aparently not. There was a mixup in the bam file names.



lol
Doclea sample.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

I like Doclea as it shows a nice variety of subclades in one place and surprising paternal Illyrian continuity in AD times. One sample is under Z38240 AD continuity Doclea, mod. d. Montenegro R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190 the other under Z638 AD continuity Doclea, mod.d. Montenegro R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

The J-Z1043 sample is so important for all under Z631, Dajt e mi who are Korbi, I wanted to use a Raven emoji but cannot May not be the Gramps moment you had with that Early Iapygian sample but this is nonetheless really exciting news for me It also proves an East Adriatic and not as some were postulating Celtic? origin am thinking of Ghurier here lol

[Archetype0ne]

I like Doclea as it shows a nice variety of subclades in one place and surprising paternal Illyrian continuity in AD times. One sample is under Z38240 AD continuity Doclea, mod. d. Montenegro R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190 the other under Z638 AD continuity Doclea, mod.d. Montenegro R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

The J-Z1043 sample is so important for all under Z631, Dajt e mi who are Korbi, I wanted to use a Raven emoji but cannot May not be the Gramps moment you had with that Early Iapygian sample but this is nonetheless really exciting news for me It also proves an East Adriatic and not as some were postulating Celtic? origin am thinking of Ghurier here lol

Yep. Feels like discovering an old relative doesn't it? Quite an amazing feeling. Makes this hobby even more rewarding.

[Archetype0ne]

As for the E-V13 that is core Illyrian territory. A sample that so far was elusive from the region, being found in the first century CE NW Balkans. That is also the oldest V13 sample from the Balkans or am I missing something?
Think in that subclade we have Dushmani, some Arberesh as well as some Montenegro or is it Serbian nobility? Not to versed in Balkan clans.
As for the autosomal. That is exactly what you would expect. The difference from Marche/Tuscany/Lombary can be seen autosomally even among cousins given the current methods/calculators, they really cluster together. Seems a foregone conclusion that pre migration Balkans, at least from the samples we have, was N. Italian like.

Edit: As for fora politics as you might have noticed, except for my larp hunting I try not to get bothered to much by the politics of it. Each one of the members me included gets things right and wrong depending on the ocassion, I try not to hold grudges. So just because Brumzi said it does not make the sources irrelevant. Shooting down the message because of the messenger is like missing the moon for the finger.

[Hawk]

He does not plot autosomally with the Iron Age Illyrian samples. This is not a BCE sample or am I missing something here. Also funny how all of these J2b-L283 core Illyrian Iron Age samples were not seen as Illyrian by Bruzmi but he is literally over the moon for a much younger AD E1b-V13 sample in the region.

The Iron Age Illyrian sample plot further north. This sample seems to plot closer to Central Italians as it seems. His clade is also very isolated?

From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

I can see rafc saying that the two other Dalmatian samples were exotic J2a and E-M34, i thought along with E-V13 were just some Roman soldiers, but the E-V13 autosomal plots with Central Italians.

[Archetype0ne]

From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

Fully agree. The good news is that not all samples have been analyzed from Croatia and Serbia yet. Including one from Naissus, and I have a feeling, or maybe hope that we do find an E-V13 in Naissus. That would be quite something as far as vindicating some of your theories.

[Hawk]

Fully agree. The good news is that not all samples have been analyzed from Croatia and Serbia yet. Including one from Naissus, and I have a feeling, or maybe hope that we do find an E-V13 in Naissus. That would be quite something as far as vindicating some of your theories.

Illyrians from Albania logically should plot with Central Italians and those far in South with South Italians and Greeks. But, let's see, perhaps more context gets revealed.

[mount123]

From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

I can see rafc saying that the two other Dalmatian samples were exotic J2a and E-M34, i thought along with E-V13 were just some Roman soldiers, but the E-V13 autosomal plots with Central Italians.

There you go and also thanks to Trojet for this nice collection it comes in quite handy at times:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5

[Archetype0ne]

There you go and also thanks to Trojet for this nice collection it comes in quite handy at times:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5

Would be really cool if we could do this for V13, and z2103 as well. Such a resource comes in really handy. I am sure Hawk or Riverman knows or can get most of the sample data. Adding G25 coordinates to each point for all three branches would be neat for future reference.

[mount123]

The difference from Marche/Tuscany/Lombary can be seen autosomally even among cousins given the current methods/calculators, they really cluster together. Seems a foregone conclusion that pre migration Balkans, at least from the samples we have, was N. Italian like.

Edit: As for fora politics as you might have noticed, except for my larp hunting I try not to get bothered to much by the politics of it. Each one of the members me included gets things right and wrong depending on the ocassion, I try not to hold grudges. So just because Brumzi said it does not make the sources irrelevant. Shooting down the message because of the messenger is like missing the moon for the finger.

Neither do I care, keep in mind there was a lot of false accusations made by multiple users against me and I could not care less I am just pointing out the obnoxious double standards some people use in making "conclusions" about facts that are right in their face.

The Iron Age Illyrian samples from Jazinka etc are more Southern located yet they still plot more Northern just as the MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture for which at this time it is quite clear that our Illyrians show a continuity from.

[Archetype0ne]

Neither do I care, keep in mind there was a lot of false accusations made by multiple users against me and I could not care less I am just pointing out the obnoxious double standards some people use in making "conclusions" about facts that are right in their face.

The Iron Age Illyrian samples from Jazinka etc are more Southern located yet they still plot more Northern just as the MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture for which at this time it is quite clear that our Illyrians show a continuity from.

Trust me I got some white hair dealing with people I disagreed with and even trlls in this hobby over the years. It's always the same, you just get better at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Ps: It does not help that Albanian conversational style is like a Fus Roh Dah contest / very confrontational.

As for the more southern shift I think there might be something to it, but I would not make too much of it cause as I said cousin to cousin you can see a difference given how these calculators work.
One way to "test" it would be to compare all these samples once we have the coordinates in a PCA with contemporary samples from the same burial grounds, and maybe the later samples from nearby, not sure if the E-V13s from Pannonia would help or how much they would fit given the context.

[Hawk]

I am bit wondering, why would rafc suffer delay on getting the data via FTP? Is it that the BAM files are too big? He is probably using some tool from github repository to deduce the Y-DNA from the BAM files.

Would be good if they split the sample checks, someone else like Trojet maybe cane check the rest, perhaps there is some kind of download restriction rate on the server. Who knows.

[Archetype0ne]

Knowing Trojet he is already on it.

[Hawk]

The E-V13 sample distances doesn't look Central Italian to me mount. He looks North-Italian-like. And i really doubt this sample is from Greek colonizers or from somewhere else, based on this so far, and modern diversity of this particular subclade.

Distance to: Croatia_Zadar:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_58.46%
5.25602511 Swiss_Italian
5.31083798 Italian_Lombardy
5.80956108 French_Provence_outlier
6.24121783 Italian_North_Alpine
6.33566098 Italian_Piedmont
6.80671727 Italian_Liguria
6.81546770 Italian_Veneto
7.38897828 FRA_Var(n=1)
7.62059709 Italian_North
7.73773869 Italian_Trentino
7.90971554 Italian_Emilia
8.21373240 Italian_Friuli 9.76762510 Portuguese

What i wonder is the Bronze Age context from which he derives, or whether he was a minority or they were within a reasonable percentage among the Liburni/Veneti.

[torzio]

Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.

was he a Daorson Illyrian........the most southern to have a permanent fortified town

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson

https://www.academia.edu/2490281/Cul...nd_Herzegovina

[mount123]

The E-V13 sample distances doesn't look Central Italian to me mount. He looks North-Italian-like. And i really doubt this sample is from Greek colonizers or from somewhere else, based on this so far, and modern diversity of this particular subclade.



What i wonder is the Bronze Age context from which he derives, or whether he was a minority or they were within a reasonable percentage among the Liburni/Veneti.

My bad Hawk I confused him with another sample ID. Yes, he is North Italian like. We would obviously need Iron Age and AD samples from Zadar and the surroundings to determine that. From IA to AD many things can change obviously.