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Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #51
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    Do we still have to listen to the "Neo-Illyrian"/"Dardanian" garbage from these people? Absolute clowns going on and on with their dumb theories when it was quite clear what the answer was.

    Imagine pushing for 1 Y-DNA = 1 ethnic group theories all the way into late antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Sirmium looks like it was a mixed Illyrian/Celtic settlement.



    After Avar conquest the inhabitants left for Dalmatia. Only one sample there is of particular interest, the one dated before the great migrations of Middle Ages.

    R3918 (Sirmium, 878.75bp): J-CTS6190
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Inb4 degenerate sock puppets screech "REeEeeE Muh Illyrian continuity just Communist propaganda."
    I truly for the life of me cannot understand these people. The Albanoi were a tribe in Illyria and we have no records of migrations since then. The Greeks still call us "Albanoi" and they've been doing it for 2000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Do we still have to listen to the "Neo-Illyrian"/"Dardanian" garbage from these people? Absolute clowns going on and on with their dumb theories when it was quite clear what the answer was.

    Imagine pushing for 1 Y-DNA = 1 ethnic group theories all the way into late antiquity.
    Kudos to you being so visionary and smart, i wanna shake your hand.


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    All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

    R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

    R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
    R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

    R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

    R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
    R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/

    Only 2 have Z638. Even Montenegro has 1 "northern Illyrian" upstream version.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

    R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

    R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
    R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
    Thanks for the update and the compressed list.

    Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

    Interesting to see CTS6190 down there in Montenegro, although this was a very young sample. The Z1043 is not surprising and I would expect more ancient samples from underneath Z638 as they sample more southern locations in the western Balkans. There has been a bias so far towards Z38240 lineages in the Balkans because researchers from the NW Balkans (where Z38240 may have been more numerous) are aggressively getting samples tested from a wide variety of sites. I wonder what the root causes are for the lack of sampling further south?

    Lastly, have all the BAMs from this study been analyzed? Seems like there might be some stragglers out there. I’m curious if any L283 will pop up outside the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I truly for the life of me cannot understand these people. The Albanoi were a tribe in Illyria and we have no records of migrations since then. The Greeks still call us "Albanoi" and they've been doing it for 2000 years.

    History states the Albanoi came from the island of Rab as per Roman historian Polybius .............they got involved in the Illyrian wars ..............they then settled on the mainland in southern montenegro ...circa 200BC

    I thought this was already discussed

    Pliny only noted these people in Albanopolis in 150AD ............he named them Albanoi after this town/village
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Only 2 have Z638. Even Montenegro has 1 "northern Illyrian" upstream version.

    of course ...............as I have been stating for many years...Illyrian migrated from north to south in the western balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    History states the Albanoi came from the island of Rab as per Roman historian Polybius
    No it doesn't. Stop making bullshit up.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Thanks for the update and the compressed list.

    Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

    Interesting to see CTS6190 down there in Montenegro, although this was a very young sample. The Z1043 is not surprising and I would expect more ancient samples from underneath Z638 as they sample more southern locations in the western Balkans. There has been a bias so far towards Z38240 lineages in the Balkans because researchers from the NW Balkans (where Z38240 may have been more numerous) are aggressively getting samples tested from a wide variety of sites. I wonder what the root causes are for the lack of sampling further south?

    Lastly, have all the BAMs from this study been analyzed? Seems like there might be some stragglers out there. I’m curious if any L283 will pop up outside the Balkans.
    Not confirmed as of yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    R10620 Poland Weklice_WEK_299
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-z2507/


    I'm downloading more of the Weklice samples right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    R10620 M 41.5 calBCE 64.5 calCE 14C Weklice_WEK_299


    If it is so, then this J-L283+ individual had reached the Baltic Sea in northern Poland by the 1st century AD. It should be the northernmost CE J-L283 sample so far.


    From the supplementary information:






    K36:




    mix: 97.2% Sweden + 2.8% Tatar Crimea Coast
    distance: 8.44


    mix: 91.6% Sweden + 8.4% German Volga
    distance: 8.45


    mix: 97.2% Sweden + 2.8% Tatar Lithuanian
    distance: 8.46


    mix: 97.4% Sweden + 2.6% Swiss Italian
    distance: 8.46


    mix: 97.2% Sweden + 2.8% Russian Bryansk
    distance: 8.46


    mix: 97.4% Sweden + 2.6% Poland Sudovia
    distance: 8.46


    mix: 95.2% Sweden + 4.8% Germany West
    distance: 8.47


    mix: 95.4% Sweden + 4.6% German South
    distance: 8.47


    mix: 97.4% Sweden + 2.6% Romania SW
    distance: 8.47


    mix: 99% Sweden + 1% Palestina
    distance: 8.48

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Are you sure? I just checked R10620. He seems to be low coverage, but he is actually negative for a couple of J2b-L283 SNPs (Z2383- 2G,
    Z616- 1A).
    Edit: Since Trojet did not arrive at same conclusion. Likely this is a mishap.
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    E-V13 found in ancient coastal Dalmatia. Can't wait to see people say that it's actually a Thracian or something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    E-V13 found in ancient coastal Dalmatia. Can't wait to see people say that it's actually a Thracian or something else.
    These guys will come up with any excuse. In the beginning it was "Illyrians are J2B2 but they don't have Z638 like Albanians do". Then that Z638 popped up in south Dalmatia. Then it became "Proto-Albanians were EV-13. Illyrians were only J2b2". Rrenjet posted on Anthrogenica saying it was the oldest EV-13 sample in the Balkans or something, and another poster showed that he had the same autosomal DNA.

    Can't wait to see what other garbage excuse they'll come up with. It'll never end because they don't want it to end. They're not interested in the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    These guys will come up with any excuse. In the beginning it was "Illyrians are J2B2 but they don't have Z638 like Albanians do". Then that Z638 popped up in south Dalmatia. Then it became "Proto-Albanians were EV-13. Illyrians were only J2b2". Rrenjet posted on Anthrogenica saying it was the oldest EV-13 sample in the Balkans or something, and another poster showed that he had the same autosomal DNA.

    Can't wait to see what other garbage excuse they'll come up with. It'll never end because they don't want it to end. They're not interested in the truth.
    It never bothered me that the truth was so hard to grasp for foreigners like rat Serbs. But seeing "Albanians" like Derite, Hawk, mount123 follow that path is just pure insanity. You would've never seen it in fora back in the golden age around 2015-2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    These guys will come up with any excuse. In the beginning it was "Illyrians are J2B2 but they don't have Z638 like Albanians do". Then that Z638 popped up in south Dalmatia. Then it became "Proto-Albanians were EV-13. Illyrians were only J2b2". Rrenjet posted on Anthrogenica saying it was the oldest EV-13 sample in the Balkans or something, and another poster showed that he had the same autosomal DNA.

    Can't wait to see what other garbage excuse they'll come up with. It'll never end because they don't want it to end. They're not interested in the truth.
    The amount of garbage you throw out of your mouth, deceptive lies when you generalize stuff is totally ridicilous.

    This E-V13 sample is not the oldest in Balkans, the Early Iron Age Psenicevo Culture are the oldest in the Balkans and you see E-V13 in big packs not lone rangers, this was Gava derived lineage (the Gava core territory is actually what the Italian and Hungarian archaeologists think where the origin of true Urnfielders is, and that they were descendants of Neolithic surviving population), and if you connect the dots then that E-V13 sample was likely a minority lineage among Illyrians coming with the Urnfielders, the Liburni apparently were affected by these waves.

    The problem with you people is that you go and spam threads all over the place not arguing whether E-V13 was present among Illyrians but that Thracians had no E-V13, because of bizarre reasons. I argued all over the place, E-V13 was a Pan-Balkanic phenomena during the Late Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The amount of garbage you throw out of your mouth, deceptive lies when you generalize stuff is totally ridicilous.

    This E-V13 sample is not the oldest in Balkans, the Early Iron Age Psenicevo Culture are the oldest in the Balkans and you see E-V13 in big packs not lone rangers, this was Gava derived lineage (the Gava core territory is actually what the Italian and Hungarian archaeologists think where the origin of true Urnfielders is, and that they were descendants of Neolithic surviving population), and if you connect the dots then that E-V13 sample was likely a minority lineage among Illyrians coming with the Urnfielders, the Liburni apparently were affected by these waves.

    The problem with you people is that you go and spam threads all over the place not arguing whether E-V13 was present among Illyrians but that Thracians had no E-V13, because of bizarre reasons. I argued all over the place, E-V13 was a Pan-Balkanic phenomena during the Late Bronze Age.
    What you do is pseudo-science b.s. You and Riverman discuss "cultures" that like 3 people know about based on random pots and pans and make up nonsense theories.

    "Oh look it's a rare cup from the Plastic Cup culture in the Central Balkans. I'm EV-13 and I'm here at the same time as this plastic cup. That means EV-13 spread came along with the plastic cup"


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    A second EV-13 in Croatia during antiquity has been confirmed. This was actually during when the period they were called "Illyrians" by the Romans.

    Like I always said, EV-13 has always been present in the Western Balkans, it was just a minority lineage. Even today, outside of Kosovo it maxes out at 20-30% amongst Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians. In Kosovo we can see a recent massive founder effect due to tribes like Berisha that migrated there a few hundred years back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    A second EV-13 in Croatia during antiquity has been confirmed. This was actually during when the period they were called "Illyrians" by the Romans.

    Like I always said, EV-13 has always been present in the Western Balkans, it was just a minority lineage. Even today, outside of Kosovo it maxes out at 20-30% amongst Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians. In Kosovo we can see a recent massive founder effect due to tribes like Berisha that migrated there a few hundred years back.
    Yeah yeah, that's your wishful thinking, and propaganda machine, E-V13 were a minority lineage in Western Balkans and they spread it from there everywhere, collect all E-V13 put it in a place where it suits your worldview, you can go and sell this cheap-thrills somewhere else.

    In Kosova actually i suspect there is far more E-V13 L241(Gashi, the real Gashi the Bardhis (Bardhi tribe seems to have been quite in a good position during Ottoman Empire) and the Shipshani who latter joined them, Kuqi, Thaqi) than FGC33621 whose presence can be equally attributed to the Sopi tribe who had far better early advantage with Ottoman Empire than the Berishas who actually were resisting the Ottoman Empire, such as when they went to war with the Beylerbeyler of Rumelia/Balkans, the Begoll of Peja who was a Gash-Bardh (E-V13 -> L241).

    The Daco-Thracians were far more in number than Illyrians in antiquity. The Eastern Urnfielders/Eastern Hallstatt left a legacy in a lot of Paleo-Balkan people of classical antiquity, some more (Daco-Thracians, Classical Greeks, Dardanians, Enchelei and perhaps Southern Illyrians) some less (Illyrians on general).

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What you do is pseudo-science b.s. You and Riverman discuss "cultures" that like 3 people know about based on random pots and pans and make up nonsense theories.

    "Oh look it's a rare cup from the Plastic Cup culture in the Central Balkans. I'm EV-13 and I'm here at the same time as this plastic cup. That means EV-13 spread came along with the plastic cup"

    Actually, kudos to Riverman for initiating a very concise clarification on archaeological situation of Bronze to Iron Age Balkans, we didn't progress our understandings before that. You are simply 100 levels below him on understandings and you should admit it and progress your understandings. What you do is, you just throw one-liners and out of context ramblings.

    Also despite having so much of trolling tendencies and narcissistic nature Huban/Oroku-Saki is quite knowledgeable as well.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

    R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

    R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
    R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
    R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

  21. #71
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    There is one G2a from Split-Dalmatia as well. Don't know if he was a local or some Italian/French Roman Soldier.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-FGC8346/

    This is what Pribislav posted:

    R3685; 435-565 AD; Velic; Croatia; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>Y3 098>Y3101>FGC8322>FGC8346* (xFGC8327)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yeah yeah, that's your wishful thinking, and propaganda machine, E-V13 were a minority lineage in Western Balkans and they spread it from there everywhere, collect all E-V13 put it in a place where it suits your worldview, you can go and sell this cheap-thrills somewhere else.

    In Kosova actually i suspect there is far more E-V13 L241(Gashi, the real Gashi the Bardhis (Bardhi tribe seems to have been quite in a good position during Ottoman Empire) and the Shipshani who latter joined them, Kuqi, Thaqi) than FGC33621 whose presence can be equally attributed to the Sopi tribe who had far better early advantage with Ottoman Empire than the Berishas who actually were resisting the Ottoman Empire, such as when they went to war with the Beylerbeyler of Rumelia/Balkans, the Begoll of Peja who was a Gash-Bardh (E-V13 -> L241).

    The Daco-Thracians were far more in number than Illyrians in antiquity. The Eastern Urnfielders/Eastern Hallstatt left a legacy in a lot of Paleo-Balkan people of classical antiquity, some more (Daco-Thracians, Classical Greeks, Dardanians, Enchelei and perhaps Southern Illyrians) some less (Illyrians on general).
    There is another E1b-V13 AD sample from Scitarvo which was under Roman Pannonia.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    There is another E1b-V13 AD sample from Scitarvo which was under Roman Pannonia.
    Yeah, saw it.

    It just fits this paper: https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0



    There was likely some admix going on from the Urnfielders, but the core Illyrian inhumating group (J2b2-L283) generally resisted them and probably absorbed them during classical antiquity, including into the Classical Illyrians we know. The core Eastern Urnfielder groups aimed for South, Central and Eastern Balkans on general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    There is one G2a from Split-Dalmatia as well. Don't know if he was a local or some Italian/French Roman Soldier.
    Could be a possibility. The broader clade he falls under has a very Western distribution. But would not be surprised if he actually had the same autosomal profile as the Zadar sample. The "oldest" sample under the broader clade is from Rome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yeah, saw it.

    It just fits this paper: https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0



    There was likely some admix going on from the Urnfielders, but the core Illyrian inhumating group (J2b2-L283) generally resisted them and probably absorbed them during classical antiquity, including into the Classical Illyrians we know. The core Eastern Urnfielder groups aimed for South, Central and Eastern Balkans on general.
    Yes, that was my first thought too. Also keeping in mind that these are AD samples not BCE. Population dynamics can change. Compare them to Latins that are R1b-U152 in the Iron Age, in the AD times there would definitely be also absorbed or other lineages.

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