Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 344

Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #76
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    368


    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    of course ...............as I have been stating for many years...Illyrian migrated from north to south in the western balkans
    That was fairly obvious since the Illyrian Iron Age samples and later samples with an East Adriatic migration pattern. It is also evident that J2b-L283 as a whole played an important role in the formation of the Illyrian ethnogenesis during Iron Age as a continuity from the Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture. There is a variety of clades under J2b-L283 in Illyrians.

  2. #77
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    368


    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Thanks for the update and the compressed list.

    Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

    Interesting to see CTS6190 down there in Montenegro, although this was a very young sample. The Z1043 is not surprising and I would expect more ancient samples from underneath Z638 as they sample more southern locations in the western Balkans. There has been a bias so far towards Z38240 lineages in the Balkans because researchers from the NW Balkans (where Z38240 may have been more numerous) are aggressively getting samples tested from a wide variety of sites. I wonder what the root causes are for the lack of sampling further south?

    Lastly, have all the BAMs from this study been analyzed? Seems like there might be some stragglers out there. I’m curious if any L283 will pop up outside the Balkans.
    ArchetypeOne has answered your question regarding the Svilos Z600 samples. There seems to be a J2b-L283 from R10620 Poland Weklice_WEK_299 https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-z2507/ I don't know about the certainty of his classification.

    I don't really know about the lack of sampling further South. I found nonetheless interesting that there was a AD continuity for some Illyrians even though undergoing displacement processes initiated by the Roman empire and lastly Balkan migrations and of course the Slavic incursion that has completely replaced them.

    As for the Southern regions: I would be thrilled to see Iron Age Illyrian samples from Montenegro, Northern Albania, South Dalmatia. Kosovo would also be interesting I am specifically thinking of tribes like the Autariatae etc. We have multiple Iron Age sites in Kosovo but archeaogenetics is not a inland pioneer discipline as I have said before and there are no funds; add to that the fact that international institutes do not really care about collaborating with local archeologists.

  3. #78
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Yes, that was my first thought too. Also keeping in mind that these are AD samples not BCE. Population dynamics can change. Compare them to Latins that are R1b-U152 in the Iron Age, in the AD times there would definitely be also absorbed or other lineages.
    That's right, let's wait for more context and we can deduce patterns.

  4. #79
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    368


    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
    Nice to see this Z638>Z631>Z1043 in the heart of Dalmatia.

    "Tilurium was an Illyrian fortified settlement of the Delmatae.

    Tilurium was the location a Roman cohort in the territory of the Delmatae. The site is now located on the hill of Gardun near Trilj.
    "

    Some might be more knowledgable about Gardun's history, so would appreciate if you could provide more info on it.

  5. #80
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have feeling that the E-V13 sample from Croatia was a native Liburni, his autosomal attestes to that, but let's wait for more samples in and around the area, if E-V13 shows more in numbers, especially during EIA, then the Liburni probably had E-V13 as well.

    Distance to: R3745_G25sim
    0.02135231 HRV_EIA:I26742
    0.02188054 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
    0.02188191 SVN_EIA:I5692
    0.02341567 ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
    0.02404052 HRV_EIA:I23995
    0.02590205 HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
    0.02637746 HUN_IA_La_Tene:I25510
    0.02661861 HRV_EIA:I23911
    0.02669018 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    0.02683462 HRV_EIA:I24882
    0.02693762 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10895
    0.02710305 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    0.02716342 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.02771237 HUN_La_Tene:I18491
    0.02780191 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.02835847 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105
    0.02840800 SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12099
    0.02849406 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.02899867 SVN_EIA:I5691
    0.02918528 HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18529
    0.02968548 DEU_Roman:FN_2
    0.02972332 HRV_EIA:I24639
    0.02973758 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10892
    0.03011753 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.03024920 ITA_Collegno_MA:CL94
    0.03030058 HUN_LBA:I25504
    0.03044316 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23206
    0.03048734 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
    0.03066944 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
    0.03077947 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    0.03084784 HRV_MBA:I26774
    0.03088598 ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole:CSN013
    0.03092146 HRV_MBA:I24342
    0.03095832 HRV_EIA:I23904
    0.03104102 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
    0.03104872 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09538
    0.03111460 HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
    0.03162944 HRV_EIA:I24638
    0.03182008 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
    0.03217586 ITA_Daunian:ORD009
    0.03219537 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
    0.03225426 ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole:CSN009
    0.03243744 HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18834
    0.03276637 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
    0.03277571 HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18528
    0.03291308 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3:I13794
    0.03293640 HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18239
    0.03308259 CHE_IA:SX18
    0.03317762 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3:I15961
    0.03340025 ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23

  6. #81
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Iron Age La Tene E-V13, was from a site which Hungarian Archaeologists indentify as Pannonian-Illyrian site. So, we should expect a pattern where Pannonian-Illyrians had E-V13 indeed.

  7. #82
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    Postedby rafc, R1b-L51:

    R3542 (Beli_Manastir, Croatia, 1619.75bp): https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC22516/
    Eastern Croatia this time, wonder what was his ancestry. Celtic, Tumulus derived Pannonian-Illyrian?

  8. #83
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,522


    Country: Austria



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Postedby rafc, R1b-L51:

    Eastern Croatia this time, wonder what was his ancestry. Celtic, Tumulus derived Pannonian-Illyrian?
    I guess its a real Celt.

    As for the E-V13 from Liburnian territory, this area had cremation and Channelled Ware influences, was an international hub, many Greek settlers too. He is autosomally Illyrian, but that could be achieved in a couple of generations of mixture too. Both the Veneti and Liburnians had closer ties to the Channelled Ware and Thraco-Cimmerian people, Urnfielders in general, than most regular Illyrians. You see it in their burial rites as well.

    Actually the second sample from Croatia is even more interesting, because that's in deep Illyrian territory with ćitarjevo. Not unaffected by UF, but that's imho the better case for an Illyrian E-V13, however he came up from earlier migrations.
    Last edited by Riverman; 19-05-22 at 13:51.

  9. #84
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    I see they are using these github repositories: https://github.com/genid/Clean_tree2

    https://github.com/genid/Yleaf

    They build this locally using a Linux distro and put the BAM files as arguments in order to deduce the Y-DNA and subclade.

    Anyone knows how reliable are them?

    They have few stars and to be honest the code and code organization is not ok-ish (but perhaps these guys are geneticists who occasionally write Python).

    I can see they do have tests, but keep it locally. Interesting why they did it so.

  10. #85
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,522


    Country: Austria



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I see they are using these github repositories: https://github.com/genid/Clean_tree2

    https://github.com/genid/Yleaf

    They build this locally using a Linux distro and put the BAM files as arguments in order to deduce the Y-DNA and subclade.

    Anyone knows how reliable are them?

    They have few stars and to be honest the code and code organization is not ok-ish (but perhaps these guys are geneticists who occasionally write Python).

    I can see they do have tests, but keep it locally. Interesting why they did it so.
    Many of the Austrian and Viminacium samples seem to be confused or missing. What a pity. First no yDNA assignment, not even a basic one, then this. Obivously its complaining on a high niveau, considering this landslide of interesting samples, but kind of unnecessary and annoying troubles.

  11. #86
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I guess its a real Celt.

    As for the E-V13 from Liburnian territory, this area had cremation and Channelled Ware influences, was an international hub, many Greek settlers too. He is autosomally Illyrian, but that could be achieved in a couple of generations of mixture too. Both the Veneti and Liburnians had closer ties to the Channelled Ware and Thraco-Cimmerian people, Urnfielders in general, than most regular Illyrians. You see it in their burial rites as well.

    Actually the second sample from Croatia is even more interesting, because that's in deep Illyrian territory with �ćitarjevo. Not unaffected by UF, but that's imho the better case for an Illyrian E-V13, however he came up from earlier migrations.
    Who knows, we already have R1b-L51 in Middle Bronze Age Croatia, depending on his terminal subclade i cannot deduce that he is Celtic derived, he seems to have a generic overlap.

  12. #87
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    368


    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Who knows, we already have R1b-L51 in Middle Bronze Age Croatia, depending on his terminal subclade i cannot deduce that he is Celtic derived, he seems to have a generic overlap.
    Wasn't R1b-L51 from MBA Central Bosnia? Vucedol?

  13. #88
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Wasn't R1b-L51 from MBA Central Bosnia? Vucedol?
    Not sure, i think it was Croatia somewhere. But need to verify. There was also weird enough one R1b-V88, very likely Mesolithic survivor, but we don't see it anymore in Iron Age and onwards.

    edit, he is indeed from MBA Croatia, but R1b-L2, a R1b-L51 variant:

    p.s Ignore the last result, everyone agreed it's just a wrongly timed sample.

    I4331 I4331 VV1, Grave 2A MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 3519 29 1618-1517 calBCE (3305±20 BP, PSUAMS-2257) Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik Croatia 43.194 17.344 1240K 1 3.141 711092 M n/a (no relatives detected) J-Z38240 J2b2a1a1a1b~ I1a1 ds.half S4331.E1.L2 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.814 0.012 0.005261 0.052 0.556 0.392 0.013 0.018 0.022 17.8 0.005261 Use Ignore_Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Ignore_Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Ignore_Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_o Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.000522
    I4332 I4332 VV3, Grave 2C MathiesonNature2018 Direct: IntCal20 3508 32 1613-1508 calBCE (3290±20 BP, PSUAMS-2258) Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik Croatia 43.194 17.344 1240K 1 3.228 729628 F n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (female) n/a (female) W3a1 ds.half S4332.E1.L2 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.838 0.012 0.292624 0.039 0.584 0.377 0.013 0.018 0.021 18.0 0.292624 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.465057
    I26726 I26726 G1; P9176_Z-C This study Direct: IntCal20 3411 28 1507-1415 calBCE (3190±30 BP, Beta-423457) Croatia_MBA Gudnja cave Croatia 42.833333 17.7 1240K 1 9.93 896713 M n/a (no relatives detected) .. .. J1c3 ds.half S26726.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia MBA 0 0.813 0.013 0.133441 0.021 0.554 0.425 0.014 0.017 0.022 19.3 0.133441 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.623172
    I24342 I24342 Tumulus 3, G1; P8545 This study Direct: IntCal20 3410 23 1501-1421 calBCE (3185±20 BP, UCIAMS-233623) Croatia_MBA Velim-Kosa Croatia 43.90391 15.702382 1240K 1 6.288 820306 M n/a (no relatives detected) R-L2 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 T2b23 ds.half S24342.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia MBA 0 0.776 0.014 0.105953 0.109 0.517 0.374 0.014 0.019 0.022 17.0 0.105953 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_highWHG Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP NA
    I26893 I26893 Tumulus MS 07; 111/2; P9223 This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3325 101 1550-1200 BCE Croatia_MBA Mušego/Mon Sego Croatia 45.068212 13.70839 1240K 1 7.25 861181 F n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (female) n/a (female) U8b1b1 ds.half S26893.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.779 0.012 0.254391 0.068 0.513 0.419 0.014 0.018 0.021 20.0 0.254391 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.009832
    I26774 I26774 Tumulus MS 07; lubanja 2, 11; P9211 This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3325 101 1550-1200 BCE Croatia_MBA Mušego/Mon Sego Croatia 45.068212 13.70839 1240K 1 3.469 827364 F n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (female) n/a (female) J1c2 ds.half S26774.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.78 0.013 0.676328 0.077 0.522 0.401 0.014 0.018 0.021 19.1 0.676328 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.238978
    I26773 I26773 Tumulus MS 07; Nebengrab 1, lubanja 1, 9; P9210 This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3325 101 1550-1200 BCE Croatia_MBA Mušego/Mon Sego Croatia 45.068212 13.70839 1240K 1 1.967 728296 F n/a (no relatives detected) n/a (female) n/a (female) J1c2 ds.half S26773.Y1.E1.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia C.EBA 0 0.808 0.013 0.122906 0.053 0.536 0.41 0.014 0.019 0.022 18.6 0.122906 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 0.886359
    I18719 I18719 P3779; BzV 10a This study Context: Archaeological - Period 3200 144 1500-1000 BCE Croatia_MBA_LBA Bezdanjača Cave Croatia 44.8520052 15.4199444 1240K 2 3.747999 825868 M n/a (no relatives detected) I-Y3120 I2a1a2b1a1 HV0a1a ds.half,ds.half S18719.Y1.E1.L1,S18719.Y1.E2.L1 PASS .. 1 1 1 1 1 Croatia.Serbia Croatia LBA 0 0.747 0.011 0.245044 0.117 0.496 0.386 0.012 0.016 0.019 20.3 0.245044 Use Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Serbia_3900.to.2700BP Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP_lowEEF Croatia.Serbia_3900.to.2700BP 7E-06

  14. #89
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    368


    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Not sure, i think it was Croatia somewhere. But need to verify. There was also weird enough one R1b-V88, very likely Mesolithic survivor, but we don't see it anymore in Iron Age and onwards.

    edit, he is indeed from MBA Croatia, but R1b-L2, a R1b-L51 variant:

    p.s Ignore the last result, everyone agreed it's just a wrongly timed sample.
    Interesting in Patterson/ Reich et. al. there is a J2b-L283 sample from Velim Kosa I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283

    Unfortunately he is low coverage.

  15. #90
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,619

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Rare e-fgc7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Rafc anlaysis anthrogenica:
    Last one I managed to get:
    R3742 (Zadar_Relja, Croatia, 1772.75bp):
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16161/
    It would seem likely this is one of those Near Eastern profiles.

    P.s
    Nice e-m123> z-841> e-L791
    Would be interesting were this individual
    Fall autosomally speaking
    Zadar was a roman colony from 48bc
    He could be :
    A)Roman auxilary soldier of near eastern background
    B)or he could be antolian trader or administrator
    Who fall on the near eastern cluster
    The same cluster of the 2 e-m123 individuals
    From viminicium serbia
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.30.458211v1
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

  16. #91
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The problem with Liburnian sample is that it was a site with people from all over Roman republic.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Roman_Liburnia

    But the E-V13 autosomal point to a local origin instead. There was no Dacian or Thracian soldiers positioned here. I am outside so i cannot check this paper fully. Someone can go through it in detail, i saw a graph with people with foreign origin.

  17. #92
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,923

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The problem with Liburnian sample is that it was a site with people from all over Roman republic.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Roman_Liburnia

    But the E-V13 autosomal point to a local origin instead. There was no Dacian or Thracian soldiers positioned here. I am outside so i cannot check this paper fully. Someone can go through it in detail, i saw a graph with people with foreign origin.

    Liburnians controlled much of Dalmatia in late bronze-age to early iron-age ...............we only see Dalmatia come up very strong, basically after the decline of the Liburnians ( around 733BC when they lost Corfu to the Corinthians ) .................Liburnians where left with only their homeland and the colony in Picene italy until circa 400BC
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

  18. #93
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,522


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The problem with Liburnian sample is that it was a site with people from all over Roman republic.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Roman_Liburnia

    But the E-V13 autosomal point to a local origin instead. There was no Dacian or Thracian soldiers positioned here. I am outside so i cannot check this paper fully. Someone can go through it in detail, i saw a graph with people with foreign origin.
    I went through the paper and they mention explicitly one soldier which might have been from the Balkans, people from Italy, many from Greece (majority of foreigners) and the Levante. There are so many options and any foreign admixture would be lost, largely, latest after 4-5 generations for most tools to detect, unless it was Subsaharan or East Asian etc. involved.
    Wouldn't wonder whether its a local from earlier times, but its impossible to tell unless we get more lineages of E-V13 from Liburnians.

  19. #94
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-11-20
    Posts
    152

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-FT19186
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1c

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The problem with Liburnian sample is that it was a site with people from all over Roman republic.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Roman_Liburnia

    But the E-V13 autosomal point to a local origin instead. There was no Dacian or Thracian soldiers positioned here. I am outside so i cannot check this paper fully. Someone can go through it in detail, i saw a graph with people with foreign origin.

    Iader wasn't Liburnian though and the Iadasenoi are called Illyrians not Liburnians in ancient sources. The E-V13 is most likely from the 1st century CE (22-121 CE)

    ‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
    Danijel Dzino

    Diodorus provides very valuable details of the Greek colonisation of the central Adriatic islands Vis (Issa) and Hvar (Pharos) in the early fourth century BC, corresponding with the expansion of Syracusan ambitions in the Adriatic under Dionysius I. He recorded the Greek conflict at Pharos with the indigenous population from the mainland in 385/4 BC, whom he calls ‘Illyrians’ . These Illyrians might well be the Iadasinoi from the Liburnian city of Iader (modern Zadar), mentioned on the inscription found on the island of Hvar, which celebrates the triumph of the Pharians over the ‘Iadasinoi and their allies’. There is also an inscription from the central Adriatic island of Vis dated to the fourth century BC, showing that the indigenous population from the mainland were seen as ‘Illyrians’ by the Greek colonists. The inscription celebrates one Kalias, who died fighting the indigenous population. The term ‘Illyrians’ is used twice, once as ‘Illyrian ship’ (or land) and the second time as ‘Illyrian land’ (Ἰλλυριον γῆς)

    In Müller’s edition of Pseudo-Scylax from GGM, the inhabitants of the coast between the Liburni and Chaonia are called ‘Illyrians’: the Hierastamnoi (Iadasinoi), Boullinoi, Hyllaei, Nestoi, Manioi, Autariatas Enkheleis, Taulantioi.

  20. #95
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    438

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Actually, kudos to Riverman for initiating a very concise clarification on archaeological situation of Bronze to Iron Age Balkans, we didn't progress our understandings before that. You are simply 100 levels below him on understandings and you should admit it and progress your understandings. What you do is, you just throw one-liners and out of context ramblings.

    Also despite having so much of trolling tendencies and narcissistic nature Huban/Oroku-Saki is quite knowledgeable as well.
    I'm 100 levels below you too, and who got proven right? Go back to collecting pots and pans.

    You guys are completely delusional thinking you're going to find some "urheimat" of EV-13 dominance. There is nothing scientifically saying that there should be an EV-13 dominant population anymore. Only the original E population tens of thousands of years back.

  21. #96
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    438

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Imagine being such an emotional child that you're hoping to glorify your Y-DNA haplogroup with random stories and fake populations/migrations.

  22. #97
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,923

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Iader wasn't Liburnian though and the Iadasenoi are called Illyrians not Liburnians in ancient sources. The E-V13 is most likely from the 1st century CE (22-121 CE)

    ‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
    Danijel Dzino

    Diodorus provides very valuable details of the Greek colonisation of the central Adriatic islands Vis (Issa) and Hvar (Pharos) in the early fourth century BC, corresponding with the expansion of Syracusan ambitions in the Adriatic under Dionysius I. He recorded the Greek conflict at Pharos with the indigenous population from the mainland in 385/4 BC, whom he calls ‘Illyrians’ . These Illyrians might well be the Iadasinoi from the Liburnian city of Iader (modern Zadar), mentioned on the inscription found on the island of Hvar, which celebrates the triumph of the Pharians over the ‘Iadasinoi and their allies’. There is also an inscription from the central Adriatic island of Vis dated to the fourth century BC, showing that the indigenous population from the mainland were seen as ‘Illyrians’ by the Greek colonists. The inscription celebrates one Kalias, who died fighting the indigenous population. The term ‘Illyrians’ is used twice, once as ‘Illyrian ship’ (or land) and the second time as ‘Illyrian land’ (Ἰλλυριον γῆς)

    In Müller’s edition of Pseudo-Scylax from GGM, the inhabitants of the coast between the Liburni and Chaonia are called ‘Illyrians’: the Hierastamnoi (Iadasinoi), Boullinoi, Hyllaei, Nestoi, Manioi, Autariatas Enkheleis, Taulantioi.
    Are you saying Liburnians are not Illyrians ?

  23. #98
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,923

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Liburni, an Illyrian people on the NE coast of the Adriatic, once dominated a large part of the coast of *Illyricum (Strabo 6. 2. 4) but by the Roman period they were confined to the sector between the river Arsia (mod. Raša) on the west side of Istria (2) and the Titius (Krka), where the Delmatae began. The Liburni were famous as seafarers

  24. #99
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-04-22
    Posts
    42


    Country: Denmark



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Iader wasn't Liburnian though and the Iadasenoi are called Illyrians not Liburnians in ancient sources. The E-V13 is most likely from the 1st century CE (22-121 CE)

    ‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
    Danijel Dzino

    Diodorus provides very valuable details of the Greek colonisation of the central Adriatic islands Vis (Issa) and Hvar (Pharos) in the early fourth century BC, corresponding with the expansion of Syracusan ambitions in the Adriatic under Dionysius I. He recorded the Greek conflict at Pharos with the indigenous population from the mainland in 385/4 BC, whom he calls ‘Illyrians’ . These Illyrians might well be the Iadasinoi from the Liburnian city of Iader (modern Zadar), mentioned on the inscription found on the island of Hvar, which celebrates the triumph of the Pharians over the ‘Iadasinoi and their allies’. There is also an inscription from the central Adriatic island of Vis dated to the fourth century BC, showing that the indigenous population from the mainland were seen as ‘Illyrians’ by the Greek colonists. The inscription celebrates one Kalias, who died fighting the indigenous population. The term ‘Illyrians’ is used twice, once as ‘Illyrian ship’ (or land) and the second time as ‘Illyrian land’ (Ἰλλυριον γῆς)

    In Müller’s edition of Pseudo-Scylax from GGM, the inhabitants of the coast between the Liburni and Chaonia are called ‘Illyrians’: the Hierastamnoi (Iadasinoi), Boullinoi, Hyllaei, Nestoi, Manioi, Autariatas Enkheleis, Taulantioi.
    You copied that text from your cousin Bruzmi. He has a brain, I'll grant him that.

    There doesn't seem to be archeological evidence that the population of Iader was anything other than Liburnian. Iader was a major Liburnian archeological site. It wasn't Delmatae or something else.

    The V13 find in question is Roman, nothing Liburnian/Illyrian about it. Iader was settled by Romans already in the time of Octavian (40-30 BC), so there were real Roman settlers there in significant numbers.

  25. #100
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,400

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I'm 100 levels below you too, and who got proven right? Go back to collecting pots and pans.

    You guys are completely delusional thinking you're going to find some "urheimat" of EV-13 dominance. There is nothing scientifically saying that there should be an EV-13 dominant population anymore. Only the original E population tens of thousands of years back.
    Lol, it's just you being pissed off the things not turning as you expected.

Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •