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Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    This one was a wrong call for L283. Trojet said its a R1b. To me it looks like a White Croat given the similarity map.
    I heard of that too and he obviously looks like an early Croat. The official coordinates of R3481 Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro 211 - 321 CE J2b-L283>Z1043 and R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia J2b-L283>Z1043 hopefully once out will be very interesting. Are they perhaps low coverage in terms of auDNA or is it really just that the official coordinates are not out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I heard of that too and he obviously looks like an early Croat. The official coordinates of R3481 Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro 211 - 321 CE J2b-L283>Z1043 and R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia J2b-L283>Z1043 hopefully once out will be very interesting. Are they perhaps low coverage in terms of auDNA or is it really just that the official coordinates are not out?
    Unless these are some migrants from the SE in Roman times, this is an indication that Z631 is deeply involved with the Glasinac-Mati culture as I predicted long time ago. Despite the fact that Z638 is generally more Southern, and most of the clades might have been born in modern day Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroku Saki View Post
    Unless these are some migrants from the SE in Roman times, this is an indication that Z631 is deeply involved with the Glasinac-Mati culture as I predicted long time ago. Despite the fact that Z638 is generally more Southern, and most of the clades might have been born in modern day Albania.
    Looking at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/
    I think its quite clear it was born fairly up in the North, but reached Albania in the transitional period, probably because some of the inhumation tumuli burying groups being pushed from the North West. You see that most of the South Eastern European and especially Albanians subclades start about 1.200-1.000 BC, right in the transitional period. Before that, there are more samples closer to the potential root area, closer to Slovenia, Italy and many being spread by Celts it seems. I doubt it reached Albania before 1.200 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Looking at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/
    I think its quite clear it was born fairly up in the North, but reached Albania in the transitional period, probably because some of the inhumation tumuli burying groups being pushed from the North West. You see that most of the South Eastern European and especially Albanians subclades start about 1.200-1.000 BC, right in the transitional period. Before that, there are more samples closer to the potential root area, closer to Slovenia, Italy and many being spread by Celts it seems. I doubt it reached Albania before 1.200 BC.
    Yes, of course, just as people like you claimed in the past J-Z631>Z1043 was clearly spread by the Celts by looking at the YFull tree. Wonder how that's looking after the latest aDNA result from Montenegro, combined with its complete absense in Celtic related regions/cultures.

    Not saying you're definitely wrong in this case, but we should be very careful before jumping into any premature conclusions, especially when we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample from the very south of Croatia dated to ~1461 BCE, Middle Bronze Age (https://goo.gl/maps/LcLGKkErdhe9EzA57)
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, of course, just as people like you claimed in the past J-Z631>Z1043 was clearly spread by the Celts by looking at the YFull tree. Wonder how that's looking after the latest aDNA result from Montenegro, combined with its complete absense in Celtic regions/cultures.
    Not saying you're definitely wrong in this case, but we should be very careful before jumping into any premature conclusions, especially when we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample from the very south of Croatia dated to ~1461 BCE, Middle Bronze Age (https://goo.gl/maps/LcLGKkErdhe9EzA57)
    NEO806

    Date (mean)
    1063 BCE


    Phylogeny

    J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878


    Archaeological Context
    Italy_BronzeAge

    This is an early East Adriatic migration pattern and can only be possible if Z638+ was already on the other side of the Adriatic which it obviously was as you said in MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture.

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    TBH at least people like Riverman and Ghurier try to use historical/statistical models to back their claims, even when certain claims made turn out wrong. But for Ghuriers case, he would get way too defensive when we would point out that just knowing how to use a statistical method, does not mean it was deployed in its correct use case, or the right interpretations were taken from such. Rather for him us critiquing his models meant that we had some agenda... That really rubbed me off the wrong way.
    One thing I will give him, Balkan discussions do look like a madhouse from the outside looking in. So can't fault him for that conclusion.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    It was spread by Celts through backflow for the most part, when La Tene Celts came into the East Alpine-Pannonian-Balkan sphere. By assimilating local Illyrian related and Scythianised people.

    Yes, some things need to turn out, but a larger scale settlement of areas like Albania before the LBA is just rather unlikely.

    The difference to E-V13 is apparent though, because the diversification of Illyrian J-L283 branches seem to have started within the Albanian sphere LATEST about 1.200-900 BC.
    We know E-V13 was likely present about the same time as well, but we have little to no evidence for such an early diversification in the Pre-Albanian sphere.
    Many, even most, modern branches of the region could have come there as late as the Early Medieval time.
    This says nothing about which side carried the language, but it means there was an old and stable presence of J-L283 since the LBA, whereas the same just can't be confirmed for E-V13 by modern or ancient data.
    It's at this point a post-date, 1.200-900. J-L283 could have been there earlier too, but that's conjecture.
    Based on other evidence and the general pattern, I'd say no for the main lineages, but we'll see.

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    Yeah, Riverman is definitely not bad and is someone who I feel I can have an honest debate. He contributes a lot in these topics, especially for "Balkan" haplogroups like V13.

    My main criticism for him is that he seems to rely too much on modern distribution. Often times, this has led to the wrong conclusions in the past (Ex: "E-V13 was spread by ancient Greeks, J-L283 obviously spread from Sardinia", etc).

    In this case, maybe he forgot we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample dated to ~1461 BCE just North of Albania, and suggested they were in Slovenia/North Italy during that period which obviously there is no evidence from ancient samples either..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    In this case, maybe he forgot we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample dated to ~1461 BCE just North of Albania, and suggested they were in Slovenia/North Italy during that period which obviously there is no evidence from ancient samples either..
    The J2b-L283>638+ sample is from the same archeological context as the other J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240 which lies within MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture which furthermore attests that the they spread from the same cultural context. If there already was a variety of clades in a MBA Dalmatian context it will also show in the IA Illyrian context who are clearly a parental and autosomal continuity from these samples for which in the East and West Adriatic we already have ancient Z638+ BA samples. Postulating or assuming that Z638+ will be found in more northern or inland ancient samples too is not "jumping to conclusions" in my opinion. That of course does not change the fact that 631>Z1043 was obviously not spread by Celts lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The J2b-L283>638+ sample is from the same archeological context as the other J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240 which lies within MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture which furthermore attests that the they spread from the same cultural context. If there already was a variety of clades in a MBA Dalmatian context it will also show in the IA Illyrian context who are clearly a parental and autosomal continuity from these samples for which in the East and West Adriatic we already have ancient Z638+ BA samples. Postulating or assuming that Z638+ will be found in more northern or inland ancient samples too is not "jumping to conclusions" in my opinion. That of course does not change the fact that 631>Z1043 was obviously not spread by Celts lol
    There are three major movements which are likely to cause a push factor for J-L283:
    - Tumulus culture/Koszider horizon (1.600 BC, caused major dents for both J-L283, E-V13 and many other Carpatho-Balkan lineages, some being almost completely annihilated)
    - Middle Danubian Urnfield expansion -> Largely from the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, but they pushed those conservative groups which stuck to inhumation in collective tumuli (classical Illyrians and related people) to the South East
    - La Tene Celts

    J-L283 went down with TC, but up with the Middle Danubian UF, so they either participated in it or got "motivated" to expand successfully to the South and East by their pressure. I think both did happen, participation in Pannonia, "motivated push" in classical Illyria, so J-L283 might have gotten split into more North Western integrated people which adopted cremation and mixed with R-L2 in particular and those staying independent and conservative, keeping collective clan burials etc., which was the main/proper Illyrian group which formed Glasinac-Mati.

    Somewhere between 1.600-900 BC I expect them to arrive in and around Albania with lineages that matter. The 1.200-900 BC time frame is just a safer starting point going by the modern data, but of course, ancient DNA always trumps modern.

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    By "jumping into conclusions" I meant when he claimed Z638 lineages couldn't have been in Albania before 1200 BCE. He also suggested Z638 had its starting point in Slovenia/North Italy which there is no evidence of. I'm not saying it was from Albania either, but likely somewhere between these two points, and that brings us to the region where we have the two currently oldest Z597>Z2507 samples (I4331 and I26726).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There are three major movements which are likely to cause a push factor for J-L283:
    - Tumulus culture/Koszider horizon (1.600 BC, caused major dents for both J-L283, E-V13 and many other Carpatho-Balkan lineages, some being almost completely annihilated)
    - Middle Danubian Urnfield expansion -> Largely from the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, but they pushed those conservative groups which stuck to inhumation in collective tumuli (classical Illyrians and related people) to the South East
    - La Tene Celts

    J-L283 went down with TC, but up with the Middle Danubian UF, so they either participated in it or got "motivated" to expand successfully to the South and East by their pressure. I think both did happen, participation in Pannonia, "motivated push" in classical Illyria, so J-L283 might have gotten split into more North Western integrated people which adopted cremation and mixed with R-L2 in particular and those staying independent and conservative, keeping collective clan burials etc., which was the main/proper Illyrian group which formed Glasinac-Mati.

    Somewhere between 1.600-900 BC I expect them to arrive in and around Albania with lineages that matter. The 1.200-900 BC time frame is just a safer starting point going by the modern data, but of course, ancient DNA always trumps modern.
    The picture below is credit of Derite, Matzinger basing his theory on older German linguists is convinced that Illyrian was part of East-Alpine Block language, technically i see it he thinks it might be an eastern spinoff of Bell Beakers somewhere during Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age. If R1b-L51 is to be found more among Pannonians, then to a degree to Illyri proprii dictii i see no conflict on that the R1b-L51 Hugelgraberkultur might be considered the people who brought Illyrian and Illyrian-related dialects on the initial phase, very early. As Gimbutas theorized the Koszider hoard + earlier Glasinac formed the Proto-Illyrians, with the earlier populations not facing any kind of disrepancy. Perhaps they were some small elite and then during Bronze to Iron Age J2b2-L283 profited the most especially considering that the Hugelgraber people were master sword craftsmen.

    Things are complicated considering that Matzinger considers Messapian as not related to Illyrian. The core Messapian aDNA can solve this issue. If the Messapians show different Y-DNA patterns from more northern Daunians then we might safely bet on J2b2-L283 was from very early phase, deep in EBA progenitor of Pre/Proto-Illyrian.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    By "jumping into conclusions" I meant when he claimed Z638 lineages couldn't have been in Albania before 1200 BCE. He also suggested Z638 had its starting point in Slovenia/North Italy which there is no hard evidence of. I'm not saying it was from Albania either, but likely somewhere between these two points, and that brings us to the region where we have the two currently oldest J-Z2507+ samples (I4331 and I26726).
    The reason I was saying so is not just the YFull modern data, but also the fact that there is a transitional Tumulus Culture/Urnfield into Illyrian sphere, around Slovenia, and the push of R-L2 dominated TF/UF groups from the Upper Danube. Those pushed very hard and brutal into Pannonia and I just see little chances for the local groups, which seem to have adopted many elements from their customs, to have pushed in the opposite direction. So in any case, J-L283 must have been present in and around Slovenia in the MBA I'd say and stayed in place. Probably they just communicated along the routes to the Southern Balkans, but I think rather they expanded. That they expanded against the TC - rather not, because R-L2 grew big time with early TC/Koszider, while J-L283 almost getting annihilated. So they rather recovered during the MBA and expanded just in the LBA on a bigger scale.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The picture below is credit of Derite, Matzinger basing his theory on older German linguists is convinced that Illyrian was part of East-Alpine Block language, technically i see it he thinks it might be an eastern spinoff of Bell Beakers somewhere during Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age. If R1b-L51 is to be found more among Pannonians, then to a degree to Illyri proprii dictii i see no conflict on that the R1b-L51 Hugelgraberkultur might be considered the people who brought Illyrian and Illyrian-related dialects on the initial phase, very early. As Gimbutas theorized the Koszider hoard + earlier Glasinac formed the Proto-Illyrians, with the earlier populations not facing any kind of disrepancy. Perhaps they were some small elite and then during Bronze to Iron Age J2b2-L283 profited the most especially considering that the Hugelgraber people were master sword craftsmen.

    Things are complicated considering that Matzinger considers Messapian as not related to Illyrian. The core Messapian aDNA can solve this issue. If the Messapians show different Y-DNA patterns from more northern Daunians then we might safely bet on J2b2-L283 was from very early phase, deep in EBA progenitor of Pre/Proto-Illyrian.
    "Older" German linguists have a lot of obsolete theories in regards to Illyrian that rightfully turned out wrong. Messapian to this day is not structurally "decoded" and there is absolutely no structural relationship between Illyrian and a postulated "east Bell Beaker spinoff" language. And as far as I can see with the auDNA and parental DNA Illyrians clearly form their own cluster. The obvious diversity of the parental DNA clades totally rules out this "HB/TC" non sense.

    Nonetheless I think this topic should be discussed in a more appropriate linguistic thread.

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    Why is J2b2 so scarce in South Albania and Northern Greece?

    If J2b2 is to be connected to the actual Illyrian language and ethnos it needs a decent presence North of the Ancient Makedonians and Epirotes.

    From what I’ve seen/read so far, even modern J2b2 in South Albania is from a more Northern origin and that of Greece is mostly from Arvanites (maybe Vlachs too, I don’t know).

    If there’s no ancient J2b2 around Northern modern Greece then J2b2 is just an “Illyric”/North-Western Balkan haplogroup, not the actual early Illyrian that the Greeks encountered or the later Illyrii proprie dicti.

    In that case, the so-called Northern Illyrians need another name, or to be simply called North Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, and so on.

    We’re confusing people and even each other if we don’t first find a consensus on the Illyrian name.

    We need to follow the example of the Italic people here, they’re all Italic but some are Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, Lucanian, while Etruscans and Messapians for instance lived also in Italy but we don’t call them Italic linguistically.

    All of this J2b2-Illyrian and E-V13-Thracian is too simplistic and misleading.

    J2b2 seems to be mostly associated with the tribes that participated in the Great Illyrian Revolt and got nearly annihilated by the Romans as well as resettled in other regions (like those in Dacia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    By "jumping into conclusions" I meant when he claimed Z638 lineages couldn't have been in Albania before 1200 BCE. He also suggested Z638 had its starting point in Slovenia/North Italy which there is no evidence of. I'm not saying it was from Albania either, but likely somewhere between these two points, and that brings us to the region where we have the two currently oldest Z597>Z2507 samples (I4331 and I26726).
    Exactly. The region between those two samples will definitely as the presence of the MBA Dalmatian culture in question is already archeologically attested. Add to that that we even have Z638+ BA presence on the West Adriatic why could it not be in Albania too? Oh wait sure there was the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence in North Albania, well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Why is J2b2 so scarce in South Albania and Northern Greece?

    If J2b2 is to be connected to the actual Illyrian language and ethnos it needs a decent presence North of the Ancient Makedonians and Epirotes.

    From what I’ve seen/read so far, even modern J2b2 in South Albania is from a more Northern origin and that of Greece is mostly from Arvanites (maybe Vlachs too, I don’t know).

    If there’s no ancient J2b2 around Northern modern Greece then J2b2 is just an “Illyric”/North-Western Balkan haplogroup, not the actual early Illyrian that the Greeks encountered or the later Illyrii proprie dicti.

    In that case, the so-called Northern Illyrians need another name, or to be simply called North Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, and so on.

    We’re confusing people and even each other if we don’t first find a consensus on the Illyrian name.

    We need to follow the example of the Italic people here, they’re all Italic but some are Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, Lucanian, while Etruscans and Messapians for instance lived also in Italy but we don’t call them Italic linguistically.

    All of this J2b2-Illyrian and E-V13-Thracian is too simplistic and misleading.

    J2b2 seems to be mostly associated with the tribes that participated in the Great Illyrian Revolt and got nearly annihilated by the Romans as well as resettled in other regions (like those in Dacia).
    The block is large and well-documented enough to call it Illyrians. If those samples were no actual Illyrians, who was? They had the same artefacts, the same burial rite, even close contacts between the regions from Slovenia to Montenegro-Albania.

    a) Southern Albania was not Illyrian for the most time
    b) Even Albania as such being an area which was "Illyrianised", conquered and settled by Illyrians coming from the relative North west.

    Look at this map, for example:
    [IMG]https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*SwPgJW6QeLSssbyovfqfIg.jpeg[/IMG]

    We now have samples from most regions covered on this map and they all yielded J-L283. That's clearly what's connecting the Illyrian sphere, while other lineages are more regional and probably acquired from other people. The whole Eastern sphere on this map was initially settled by cremating groups related to Channelled Ware/Gva in the wider sense, before there was Illyrian adstrates and replacement events.

    Take for example these three groups, thorugh which Channelled Ware marched South in the LBA, all three are clearly non-Illyrian:





    https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf

    The Illyrians very clearly came, in any case, from the West of that zone and encountered new people when coming down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Exactly. The region between those two samples will definitely as the presence of the MBA Dalmatian culture in question is already archeologically attested. Add to that that we even have Z638+ BA presence on the West Adriatic why could it not be in Albania too? Oh wait sure there was the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence in North Albania, well...
    The question is also, considering the massive dent J-L283 had in the early Tumulus culture/Koszider horizon phase, from which region and groups it did recover and retake ground.
    Like we might, for other lineages as well, with higher resolution samples see one day that many finds represent dead ends and the real big founders from which most moderns descent from lived elsewhere. Like we had J-L283 in Maros too, hadn't we? But I really doubt this was the big success for the lineage, considering how it ended and got largely replaced. Because many of the other lineages found there disappeared as well or got seriously reduced.

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    I think earlier J-L283 clades were probably somewhere in between of East Alps - North Balkans (take for example J-YP91). We also have that J-Z615* in EBA Maros Culture (Mokrin).

    For the downstream J-Z597 branch (which is the most prolific J-L283 branch), current aDNA samples and modern distribution suggest it established itself in Western Balkans by Middle Bronze Age. But anyway, we might be derailing this thread with too much J-L283

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    Considering most samples being found so far being in plane regions : Pannonia/Croatia/Serbia I find 0 evidence for East Alp origin, if anything East Alps would be a refugia rather than a place that would allow for the diversification we see among BA Illyrian J2b.

    Considering the Maros samples and the context of the J2b burial , as well as the autosomal and cultural ties of Maros, as well as the fact that it was z2103 it was found with rather than R-L2 I find it disingenuous if not straight up running for the hills after one theory to explain proto Illyrians as L283 fails.

    Just check how many of the ancient samples of L283 were found in tumuli with grave goods and their social status, I know from having kept up, but some people seem to forget, why would L283 need a R-L2 elite to give them the language?

    Sometimes I swear people are really obsessed with these master slave dialectics.

    Also, peoples obsession with Matzinger reminds me of journalistic sensationalism from Balkan Insight:
    https://balkaninsight.com/2011/03/25/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words/
    But we are no longer in 2011, God forbid you people check the shit that was going around on fora back then. And even Matzinger himself contradicted the article later iirc saying it was misconstrued. Yet here we have people still trying really hard.

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    But if someone has evidence for Eastern Alps origin I am willing to look into it. Just keep in mind east of the Alps and Eastern Alps are two very different things, both as geographical regions, ecosystems as well as potential lifestyle 4K bp.

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    That's what Gimbutas was thinking, from where did she grab the idea Glasinac had Koszider hoard objects?!



    The Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus MBA expansion was a massive event, wouldn't be surprised if they were responsible for both Illyrian and Thracian languages(though Thracian has equal chances to be derived from CWC/Nitra R1a people) considering how far away from proper Greco-Armenian (Yamnaya R1b-Z2103) they are classified based on personal names, toponyms, hydronyms etc, etc, etc.

    I am considering options here, not stamping theories. Of course chances i am wrong on options are still there, but probability-wise they are valid.

    We can take the Etruscans as example, speaking a Neolithic Farmer language yet having ~50-70% R1b Bell Beaker lineages, modern Basques as well etc, etc....

    And, no worries about off-topic, no one is active in this thread anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The block is large and well-documented enough to call it Illyrians. If those samples were no actual Illyrians, who was? They had the same artefacts, the same burial rite, even close contacts between the regions from Slovenia to Montenegro-Albania.

    a) Southern Albania was not Illyrian for the most time
    b) Even Albania as such being an area which was "Illyrianised", conquered and settled by Illyrians coming from the relative North west.

    Look at this map, for example:
    [IMG]https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*SwPgJW6QeLSssbyovfqfIg.jpeg[/IMG]

    We now have samples from most regions covered on this map and they all yielded J-L283. That's clearly what's connecting the Illyrian sphere, while other lineages are more regional and probably acquired from other people. The whole Eastern sphere on this map was initially settled by cremating groups related to Channelled Ware/G�va in the wider sense, before there was Illyrian adstrates and replacement events.

    Take for example these three groups, thorugh which Channelled Ware marched South in the LBA, all three are clearly non-Illyrian:





    https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf

    The Illyrians very clearly came, in any case, from the West of that zone and encountered new people when coming down.
    Historical Illyrians reached as far South as Aetolia and even Boiotia. Careful sensitive readers, I’m not saying they made up the majority or replaced anyone else, simply reached.

    These early Illyrians that far South could not have been simply Illyrianised people. They were the reason everyone else up North was called Illyrian, just like the case where Romans couldn’t distinguish various later called Germanic tribes and called everyone Germans.

    We already have a decent study that separates these Illyric/West Balkan people into 4-5 groups. The group that deserves the name Illyrian is Southern one, the proprie dicti, and Western Dardanians.

    If we don’t have ancient J2b2 in the Epirus and Makedonia or simply areas adjacent to the 2, then the historic Illyrians Illyrianised J2b2, not the other way around.

    None of these is proven, so I’d not rush and connect y-dna with Iron Age/antiquity populations.

  24. #174
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Historical Illyrians reached as far South as Aetolia and even Boiotia. Careful sensitive readers, I’m not saying they made up the majority or replaced anyone else, simply reached.

    These early Illyrians that far South could not have been simply Illyrianised people. They were the reason everyone else up North was called Illyrian, just like the case where Romans couldn’t distinguish various later called Germanic tribes and called everyone Germans.

    We already have a decent study that separates these Illyric/West Balkan people into 4-5 groups. The group that deserves the name Illyrian is Southern one, the proprie dicti, and Western Dardanians.

    If we don’t have ancient J2b2 in the Epirus and Makedonia or simply areas adjacent to the 2, then the historic Illyrians Illyrianised J2b2, not the other way around.

    None of these is proven, so I’d not rush and connect y-dna with Iron Age/antiquity populations.
    That's not possible for various reasons, i think Channeled-Ware people pushed into Albania during LBA then the Glasinac-Mat pushed during EIA-MIA and Illyrianizing the region. Like the myth says Enchelei were attacked by Northern Illyrian tribes, could be their power diminished because of Glasinac-Mat incursions.

    The Enchelei burial tradition is surprisingly different from core Illyrians the inhumating groups for which various archaeologists have attested (would be strange if they are wrong).

    Representations of Power – an ancient Macedonian Elite?

    Pazko Kuzman

    Enheleian Tibal Aristocracy from Lychnis. Archaic Tomb of Warriors from Gorna Porta in Ohrid

    The discovery of the “Tombs of the Princes” in the Lychnidos area (“Trebeništa” 1918, 1930–1934 and Gorna Porta (Upper Gate) Ohrid, 2002) opened new view points in archaeological science (“Trebeništa” 1918), especially with the appearance of the golden ritual masks, with the same function a thousand years after the Mycenaean ones (Schliemann, 1876) and the archaeological discoveries at Gorna Porta-Ohrid confirming the fact that “Trebeništa” is not an exception in Lychnis. The archaic tomb constructions from the site Zabraneta Ledinka (Forbidden Meadow) at Gorna Porta offer valuable data on the funerary and eschatological beliefs and rituals of the people from the richer social layers who lived in this area.On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”The tomb represents an initial base for discussions that would contribute to the further shedding of light about the individual “princes’ tombs” of the Trebeništa necropolis that are still insufficiently “illuminated”. This tomb construction is in close proximity to two more Late Archaic tombs: one with a cremated deceased person (Tomb 132) and the other with an inhumed deceased person – a child (Tomb 167) – a parallel occurrence of inhumation and cremation, which allows discussion for many other significant conclusions, compared to the results determined in other Archaic necropolises with similar funerary ritual approaches and similarly rich offerings discovered in the Balkans, more precisely those located along the old prehistoric Candavian road communication, and the future road from Antiquity – the Via Egnatia (along the Trebeništa necropolis near Ohrid and Petilep-Beranci near Bitola, Archontiko near Pella and Sindos near Thessaloniki).Specifically, given all the circumstances, our Tomb of the Warriors, we can say, represents an archaeological geyser of knowledge of the Enheleian (Engeleian) tribal community which inhabited the area of Lychnis at the time

    .
    https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/
    More aDNA will clarify the situation. But the essential differentiation is clear IMO.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That's not possible for various reasons, i think Channeled-Ware people pushed into Albania during LBA then the Glasinac-Mat pushed during EIA-MIA and Illyrianizing the region. Like the myth says Enchelei were attacked by Northern Illyrian tribes, could be their power diminished because of Glasinac-Mat incursions.

    The Enchelei burial tradition is surprisingly different from core Illyrians the inhumating groups for which various archaeologists have attested (would be strange if they are wrong).



    More aDNA will clarify the situation. But the essential differentiation is clear IMO.

    Herodian (2nd century A.D.) mentions that Rhizon takes its name from Rizon, son of Cadmus and brother of Illyrius.[2] The earliest mention of Rhizon dates back to the 4th century BCE in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax who mentions it as a settlement of the Enchelei.

    Enchelei origin is Budva Montenegro...........before they fled to Lake Ohrid
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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