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Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Just check how many of the ancient samples of L283 were found in tumuli with grave goods and their social status, I know from having kept up, but some people seem to forget, why would L283 need a R-L2 elite to give them the language?
    We see the R-L2 dominated people to be the leading element in the Tumulus culture invasion of Pannonia and the Balkans and they just crushed into the local populations and caused a massive demographic decline in the region. Before you had large settlements and agrarian structures, many finds, high level of production and interaction, then comes the TC peopel with the Koszider horizon and in some regions no people lived any more, in others just half or a one third of the former population.
    And most importantly, you see in the data that J-L283 and E-V13 both suffered equally under this onslaught. But soon after, R-L2 and J-L283 go into synchrony and grow rapidly, for the first time together. So two formerly unrelated and hostile people seem to have shared some kind of network and success story. This doesn't tell us that the TC R-L2 people did subjugate or control the local J-L283 people, but some kind of source - receiver relationship was there. And as you say, the TC influenced cultures in the North Western Balkans being clearly related to the wider TC networks.
    So the least we have to recognise is that the J-L283 people got integrated into this wider Middle Danubian TC networks. E-V13, and this is noteworthy, was not. On the contrary, you see that R-L2 and J-L283 expand in very early UF, causing yet another dent for E-V13, but then when E-V13 started to gain control, with Gva and Channelled Ware in Late Urnfield, with improved weaponry and first iron weapons, both R-L2 and J-L283 go down against E-V13:


    Rather it seems that after that, R-L2 and J-L283, after having a shared fate for some generations, depart again. My guess is because the E-V13 dominated late UF, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and beginning Hallstatt caused a wedge between, final break between the cremating Northern groups and the inhumation burial proper Illyrian groups.

    Before I made those graphs with YFull data, I thought J-L283 might have joined the TC ranks early on, but that's definitely not the case. They almost got annihilated by the TC/R-L2 dominated people, but then they somehow-someway seem to have joined their ranks. Whether they kept their language while doing so or adopted the language of the TC people is impossible to know. But especially in and around Slovenia, there is a fluent-smooth and highly mixed borderzone between R-L2 and J-L283 it seems to me.

    Quite typically, the other Balkan lineages didn't recover from this like J-L283, and E-V13 did so on its own, so its a really different, quite peculiar pattern. You can also see, that R-L2 didn't do as well after the Cimmerian invasion/Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, the "native" J-L283 and E-V13 take over.

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    By the way, J-L283 didn't bad in the Roman era, better than E-V13 relatively, much better. They seem to have suffered most from the Celts. And we now know why, because just look at all those R-U152 samples from Pannonia and the Balkans! The formerly Pannonian-Illyrian territories suffered the most from the Scythian and La Tene Celtic invasion. In some of the Eastern, E-V13 dominated areas of Fluted Ware/Channelled Ware, the transition was much more smooth with lots of locals being just assimilated or Dacians ending even on top in the Daco-Celtic mixes which emerged. That's really significant in the record, that J-L283 never recovered from the Scythianised and Celtic invasions. It was much more widespread before. The small founder events within the Celtic sphere assimilated branches experienced can't hide that fact. Contrary to that, E-V13 suffered the most under Romans, even way more than under the Germanics and Slavs apparently.

    E-V13 profited from La Tene Celts, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Roman conquest
    J-L283 did profit from the Romans, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Scythian and Celtic conquests.

    These are really quite different, significantly different patterns observable.

    The reason is clear, Eastern Hallstatt got practically destroyed by the Scythianised and Celtic groups. In the course of this, a lot of North Illyrian-Pannonian lineages got annihilated or severely cut back.

  3. #178
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    J-L283 is to the Illyrians what R-Z2103 is to the Yamnaya.

    I highly doubt Illyrian peoples during those Bronze Age and Iron Age times referred to one another as “Illyrians”. I doubt the Yamnaya referred to one another as “Yamnaya”. So I wouldn’t fret over how a long dead philosopher or historian may have categorized or defined a particular group of people several millennia ago. Besides, those guys tend to have a horrible track record. Herodotus being a prime example.

    These ancient L283 Z597 guys, representing a wide variety of downstream lineages, are randomly popping up all over the place in the western Balkans, Messapia, and now North Africa. I’m not an expert on Illyrians (obviously), but it does look like there was some sort of movement of Illyrians from the western Balkans to southern Italy starting around 1100 BC. It’s in the bones.

    Going forward, I’m more interested now in determining which Z597 lineages might be associated with certain Illyrian tribes back in ancient times. Fingers crossed for more Bronze Age/Iron Age samples from the western Balkans and Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    J-L283 is to the Illyrians what R-Z2103 is to the Yamnaya.

    I highly doubt Illyrian peoples during those Bronze Age and Iron Age times referred to one another as “Illyrians”. I doubt the Yamnaya referred to one another as “Yamnaya”. So I wouldn’t fret over how a long dead philosopher or historian may have categorized or defined a particular group of people several millennia ago. Besides, those guys tend to have a horrible track record. Herodotus being a prime example.

    These ancient L283 Z597 guys, representing a wide variety of downstream lineages, are randomly popping up all over the place in the western Balkans, Messapia, and now North Africa. I’m not an expert on Illyrians (obviously), but it does look like there was some sort of movement of Illyrians from the western Balkans to southern Italy starting around 1100 BC. It’s in the bones.

    Going forward, I’m more interested now in determining which Z597 lineages might be associated with certain Illyrian tribes back in ancient times. Fingers crossed for more Bronze Age/Iron Age samples from the western Balkans and Italy.
    If you look at the downward trend when Gva expanded, the reason for the start of the migration over the Adriatic should be pretty clear, its the pressure from the North. Later, they pushed Gva-related groups in the Balkans back, which caused the mixed contact zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    J-L283 is to the Illyrians what R-Z2103 is to the Yamnaya.

    I highly doubt Illyrian peoples during those Bronze Age and Iron Age times referred to one another as “Illyrians”. I doubt the Yamnaya referred to one another as “Yamnaya”. So I wouldn’t fret over how a long dead philosopher or historian may have categorized or defined a particular group of people several millennia ago. Besides, those guys tend to have a horrible track record. Herodotus being a prime example.

    These ancient L283 Z597 guys, representing a wide variety of downstream lineages, are randomly popping up all over the place in the western Balkans, Messapia, and now North Africa. I’m not an expert on Illyrians (obviously), but it does look like there was some sort of movement of Illyrians from the western Balkans to southern Italy starting around 1100 BC. It’s in the bones.

    Going forward, I’m more interested now in determining which Z597 lineages might be associated with certain Illyrian tribes back in ancient times. Fingers crossed for more Bronze Age/Iron Age samples from the western Balkans and Italy.
    100% agree. I can't wait to see the samples out of Albania and neighboring regions. Guaranteed J2b-L283/E-V13/R1b will be found together.

    It really depends on the subclade as I'm sure by antiquity they were already mixing quite a bit.

    J1/T/G/J2a and some rare I2a were probably already present in Proto-Albanians. J1 for instance has some decent diversity within Albanians. Even despite the small sample size.

    It's obvious the 3 main lines were likely present in Proto-Albanians at all phases of their development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Herodian (2nd century A.D.) mentions that Rhizon takes its name from Rizon, son of Cadmus and brother of Illyrius.[2] The earliest mention of Rhizon dates back to the 4th century BCE in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax who mentions it as a settlement of the Enchelei.

    Enchelei origin is Budva Montenegro...........before they fled to Lake Ohrid
    As per Periplus documentations circa 400BC

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    By the way, J-L283 didn't bad in the Roman era, better than E-V13 relatively, much better. They seem to have suffered most from the Celts. And we now know why, because just look at all those R-U152 samples from Pannonia and the Balkans! The formerly Pannonian-Illyrian territories suffered the most from the Scythian and La Tene Celtic invasion. In some of the Eastern, E-V13 dominated areas of Fluted Ware/Channelled Ware, the transition was much more smooth with lots of locals being just assimilated or Dacians ending even on top in the Daco-Celtic mixes which emerged. That's really significant in the record, that J-L283 never recovered from the Scythianised and Celtic invasions. It was much more widespread before. The small founder events within the Celtic sphere assimilated branches experienced can't hide that fact. Contrary to that, E-V13 suffered the most under Romans, even way more than under the Germanics and Slavs apparently.

    E-V13 profited from La Tene Celts, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Roman conquest
    J-L283 did profit from the Romans, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Scythian and Celtic conquests.

    These are really quite different, significantly different patterns observable.

    The reason is clear, Eastern Hallstatt got practically destroyed by the Scythianised and Celtic groups. In the course of this, a lot of North Illyrian-Pannonian lineages got annihilated or severely cut back.
    If J2b2 did well during Roman times, where’s the J2b2 in South Albania and Northern Greece? It was supposed to boom during the centuries of Roman rule.

    Secondly, if J2b2 did well and E-V13 suffered, doesn’t that increase the likelihood that it’s J2b2 that passed down the Illyrian language to the medieval Albanians and not the supposedly E-V13 Thracians. The latter isn’t even up for discussion since Albanian cannot be Thracian.

    For some reason, I’m more curious/interested in the J2b2 haplogroup than my own E-V13 so I really hope the new upcoming papers shed some light if not bring definite proof on the Y-DNA spread around Albania, Montenegro, and Greece.

  8. #183
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    According to the same logic, Albanian cannot be equally Illyrian as well. Selective pick-ups are disshonest.

    Imo, Albanian/Albanoid is a Central Balkan language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    According to the same logic, Albanian cannot be equally Illyrian as well. Selective pick-ups are disshonest.

    Imo, Albanian/Albanoid is a Central Balkan language.
    Keep embarrassing yourself dude. Bit by bit you're being exposed as a clown.

    bUt bUt eV13 iS aWeSoME aLBaNIaNs aRe eV13. Manchild.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    bce posted this on Anthrogenica. Look how closely Albanians plot to Late Iron Age/Antiquity Croatians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    If J2b2 did well during Roman times, where’s the J2b2 in South Albania and Northern Greece? It was supposed to boom during the centuries of Roman rule.
    Most areas in which people fully adopted the Roman way of living had a demographic standstill or shrinkage. The birth rates were low, the mortality high. So I would assume that people which were not fully integrated into the Western Roman civilisation and lived rather as sort of privileged allies did better, usually, than "Roman citizens" living the "Roman way of life", to put it that way. And I'm just trying to identify and verify patterns, which I then try to interpret. The patterns are there, the interpretation however can be more or less on point.

    But going by what I see, I would say that early allies of the Romans in Illyrian world, people which participated in the colonisation of other regions, rather than being cut down or fully assimilated, mgiht be responsible for this relatively well-being in the Roman era. And here user Bruzmi has made some points, like the many Illyrians which did indeed cooperate and settle with Romans. E.g. in former Dacian territories. The Celticised and Dacian people being cut down by the Romans and R-L2 and E-V13 go down, whereas J-L283 is at least stable if not growing slightly. That's no boom, it's just better.
    I mean the areas in which E-V13 is supposed to have been concentrated really suffered, relatively speaking, having a more stable development is already "doing well" in the Roman era and under Roman rule, because like I said, many people were not that lucky and had very bad demographics and "growth" (rather shrinkage).

    Secondly, if J2b2 did well and E-V13 suffered, doesn’t that increase the likelihood that it’s J2b2 that passed down the Illyrian language to the medieval Albanians and not the supposedly E-V13 Thracians. The latter isn’t even up for discussion since Albanian cannot be Thracian.
    I think E-V13 in the Southern Balkan/Albanians can be divided in 2 or more groups. The main those local since the Early Iron Age vs. those coming in later. And I think a signfiicant portion of E-V13 came in pretty late, probably in Late Antiquity to Early Medieval times. First fleeing from Germanics and Slavs, later coming with them, as an assimilated part especially of the latter.

    This doesn't tell us who brought the language, but my gues sis that J-L283 and "old E-V13" was the Proto-Albanians, whereas the newly incoming groups spoke mainly Romance (Vlach-related), but also Germanic and Slavic.

    For some reason, I’m more curious/interested in the J2b2 haplogroup than my own E-V13 so I really hope the new upcoming papers shed some light if not bring definite proof on the Y-DNA spread around Albania, Montenegro, and Greece.
    Me too, because the same I said for the Albanians is even more true for the Greeks, which might have experienced not just one but numerous waves of E-V13 coming down. It could have started even before the LBA, but I think the first came in the LBA with Channelled Ware/Gva-related groups, the second with developed Thracians (Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag related), then with Germanics and other "Barbarians", after that with Slavs and finally with Vlachs and Albanians.
    Without way more data, its impossible to verify one of these waves, the scenario as such, or which subclades belong to which group.

    For the Albanians I guess it will be somewhat more straightforward, but the basic problem is the same. Even some J-L283 lineages might have come in late and from the North. Kind of "coming home" after having spread in the Iron Age and Roman era.

    I'm no expert for early Albanian and Proto-Albanian theories, not at all, but from what I have seen, there are not too many people or sources which claim that South Albania was always the cradle. Rather not. The Albanian-Vlach argument too can be interpreted two ways, which is something many forget. It don't just mean that the dominant Southern Vlach clans are more likely to have lived to the South, where they were in close contact with Proto-Albanians, it could also mean Proto-Albanians didn't live too far in the South, for having had enough contacts to Southern early Vlachs.
    North Albania or even North of Albania is also more likely because of the stronger presence and mixture with Thracians. Because whereever they were, they surely lived at the borderline between Illyrian and Thracian initially, not deeply in Illyrian (or Thracian) territory, without direct and uninterrupted contacts to the other major block.
    I think Southern Albania was rather settled by Proto-Albanians secondarily, but that's just my personal opinion, as I just keep saying what I deem likely.

    I'm not strongly invested into any of this, its just my personal opinion and impression. Could be right or wrong, only more data will prove it.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    bce posted this on Anthrogenica. Look how closely Albanians plot to Late Iron Age/Antiquity Croatians.


    so are you saying that Albanians migrated from the Northern Balkans area ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    so are you saying that Albanians migrated from the Northern Balkans area ?
    It's not about migrating. It's about bidirectional gene flow. People with the same culture/language will converge towards some degree of homogeneity over time.

    If they don't they drift apart and become different ethnicities.

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    Any comments on these new Urbino samples? They seem very specific to Southern Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    Any comments on these new Urbino samples? They seem very specific to Southern Italy
    I would connect the comment on those with the one from Wels. At the moment it looks like Northern-Central Italy was seriously affected by the "Imperial Roman" migration pattern we saw for other places already, which means a shift towards the East Mediterranean, the Levantine spectrum.
    The Austrian sample from Wels looks, at the first look, like a more recent mixed person with Northern : Southern ancestry. I think its highly important because its one of the first potential "provincials" of which many might have fled before or migrated with the Germanics into Italy. They might have caused a partial North shift at the end of Antiquity to the Early Medieval times which can't be fully explained by Germanic ancestry proper.

    The samples from Hassleben are very interesting too, as they being not buried in the Jastorf Germanic tradition, which was cremation, so they are archaeologically untypical and they are also genetically non-Germanic. The majority looks rather more Southern Celtic, I would guess Hallstatt people or Danubian La Tene Celts - in that direction. Among them R11872 is the Southern outlier - could have "Imperial Roman" ancestry as well in the mix. So either they had some Gallo-Roman/Romance connection or another sort of Southern communication route.
    The area was known for being inhabited by independent people of Late Hallstatt, then a transitional/contact zone between Jastorf Germanics and La Tene Celts.

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    I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

    Ariel90

    From the supplementary material:

    "T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
    The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
    presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
    perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
    fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
    century BC."


    Distance to: R1557:R1557
    0.02681752 Sicilian_East
    0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
    0.02952766 Italian_Molise
    0.02990920 Italian_Campania
    0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
    0.03486944 Greek_Crete
    0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
    0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

    J.delajara

    What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Exiting. Now I hope the members more read on cultures give context on the sample.
    Hi,
    Sorry to bothersome person
    But i am realy intrested to know
    The autosomal profile of 3742 ( the zadar e-L791 dude)
    I see his file here :
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...852?show=reads
    Can you please ask one of the experts in anthrogenica
    To have a look at him ?

    He could have been many options ; anatolian, a levantine, greek islander, or like the others italian autosomal profile

    P.s
    Salento if you are also reading this as sn expert
    In our forum maybe you can have a look at him
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    bce posted this on Anthrogenica. Look how closely Albanians plot to Late Iron Age/Antiquity Croatians.


    The only Iron Age sample in there is the E-V13 fellow, Zadar Hypo banka and he does not cluster with Albanians. Velic and Novo Selo are Byzantine period (500-570). From this limited sample there is discontinuity among Illyrians. Illyrians being replaced with Greeks/South Italian colonists, it could even be ME mixture which occurred in Rome itself, creating this pull toward the Jewish direction. So much change under Roman rule. But there was no such changes in Albania of course, natural laws don't apply in that land. Albania is a Illyrian reservation isolated from the universe.
    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 22-05-22 at 22:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    so are you saying that Albanians migrated from the Northern Balkans area ?
    Nice one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

    Ariel90

    From the supplementary material:

    "T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
    The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
    presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
    perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
    fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
    century BC."


    Distance to: R1557:R1557
    0.02681752 Sicilian_East
    0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
    0.02952766 Italian_Molise
    0.02990920 Italian_Campania
    0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
    0.03486944 Greek_Crete
    0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
    0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

    J.delajara

    What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
    R437 from Antonio et al 2019 is the most Southern Republican Roman sample from that paper, with distances (Dodecad12B) as follows:

    Distance to: Mediterranean_C6:R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.78842354 Italian_Campania
    5.16851042 Italian_Molise
    6.53940364 Italian_Sicily
    6.86971615 Italian_Calabria
    7.19801361 Italian_Basilicata
    8.48859847 Italian_Marche
    8.83920245 Italian_Apulia
    9.63911303 Italian_Lazio
    9.86986829 Italian_Jew
    10.34697540 Italian_Umbria

    I am not a member at Anthrogenica, are you able to determine who close R437 is to this new Sample (R1557). I assume those distances in your post are from G25. I have been waiting for more Republican Roman samples to come out to see if there are other R437 like Republicans. It seems based on the results you presented, R437 is likely genetically similar to R1557 autosomally.

    Thanks, PT

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks salento,
    Kudos to you
    The zadar e-L791 dude cluster
    With druze autosomally speaking

    In k12b calculator
    Very cool

    R3742_Dod_K12b,6.89,0,0,2.88,5.98,0,0,7.93,26.79,2 .90,46.63,0
    Distance to: R3742
    11.90923591 Druze
    12.64722499 Samaritians
    12.85332253 Palestinian
    12.92713425 Jordanians
    13.01548309 Lebanese
    13.18265148 Syrians
    13.93071427 Iraq_Jews
    15.77652687 Iranian_Jews
    16.95678035 Georgia_Jews
    17.80389845 Assyrian


    P.s
    Roman empire people moved around
    From far away probably was a trader or administrator
    Last edited by kingjohn; 23-05-22 at 14:25.

  22. #197
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    237

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

    Ariel90

    From the supplementary material:

    "T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
    The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
    presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
    perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
    fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
    century BC."


    Distance to: R1557:R1557
    0.02681752 Sicilian_East
    0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
    0.02952766 Italian_Molise
    0.02990920 Italian_Campania
    0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
    0.03486944 Greek_Crete
    0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
    0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

    J.delajara

    What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
    Great to see another ancient J2a-L70 sample in Italy/Balkans (one of my great-grandfathers was J-L70). This seems to be the oldest sample yet.

  23. #198
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    1,474

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Hi,
    Sorry to bothersome person
    But i am realy intrested to know
    The autosomal profile of 3742 ( the zadar e-L791 dude)
    I see his file here :
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...852?show=reads
    Can you please ask one of the experts in anthrogenica
    To have a look at him ?

    He could have been many options ; anatolian, a levantine, greek islander, or like the others italian autosomal profile
    P.s
    Salento if you are also reading this as sn expert
    In our forum maybe you can have a look at him
    Just read this. Will do!
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  24. #199
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    1,474

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

    Ariel90

    From the supplementary material:

    "T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
    The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
    presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
    perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
    fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
    century BC."


    Distance to: R1557:R1557
    0.02681752 Sicilian_East
    0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
    0.02952766 Italian_Molise
    0.02990920 Italian_Campania
    0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
    0.03486944 Greek_Crete
    0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
    0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

    J.delajara

    What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
    I would not be surprised if L70 has been in the Balkans like a thousand years pre Christ.

  25. #200
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,778

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Rare e-fgc7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Just read this. Will do!

    thanks man
    i already asked salento
    and according to his anlaysis in k12b (R3742 Zadar, Croatia 127 - 228 CE)
    he cluster with druze
    so he was levantine autosomally speaking
    like the j1 dude from isola sacra rome from this research Italy_IsolaSacra:R11111___AD_201
    k13: ,3.91,0,12.07,26.32,42.12,10.73,2.28,0.61,0,0,0.45 ,1.50,0.02
    who also cluster with druze

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