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Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Velic and Novo Selo are Byzantine period (500-570). From this limited sample there is discontinuity among Illyrians.
    The term "Illyrians" last appears in the historical record in the 7th century, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum.[6]

    Stop being a dumb troll. And btw the Byzantine Emperor in that time period (Anastasius I) was an Illyrian from Durres. This has been attested.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks man
    i already asked salento
    and according to his anlaysis in k12b (R3742 Zadar, Croatia 127 - 228 CE)
    he cluster with druze
    so he was levantine autosomally speaking
    like the j1 dude from isola sacra rome from this research Italy_IsolaSacra:R11111___AD_201
    k13: ,3.91,0,12.07,26.32,42.12,10.73,2.28,0.61,0,0,0.45 ,1.50,0.02
    who also cluster with druze
    You already know my opinion on this When most people doubted.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    The term "Illyrians" last appears in the historical record in the 7th century, referring to a Byzantine garrison operating within the former Roman province of Illyricum.[6]

    Stop being a dumb troll. And btw the Byzantine Emperor in that time period (Anastasius I) was an Illyrian from Durres. This has been attested.
    You shouldn't be allowed here, you're anti-social and vulgar. You said Iron Age, and I corrected you. Now you larp on to some Byzantine emperor, LOL, has nothing to do with your initial claim, might as well talk about your cannabis gardening skills. You have nothing to say here other than vomit and make your cannabis Kurvelesh tribes look like the low IQ anti-social trash they are. You can only litter here, that's your "contribution".

    With a basic graph I noticed a middle eastern pull, and I am quickly proven right by follow up posts. And I'm not even trying. You are pouring your heart into this and have nothing to offer or contribute, go back to dealing weed.

  4. #204
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    to be fair here are y haplogroups calls by adamm, rafc, david bush, pribislav from anthrogenica

    R6693: Serbia-J-Z585
    R10766: Algeria-G-ft54311
    R3481 (Doclea_Bjelovine, 1684.25bp): J-Z1043
    R3906 (Sirmium, 393.5bp): I-A11380
    R3918 (Sirmium, 878.75bp):
    R1B-L51>L52>L151
    R3931 (Viminacium, 1770bp): E-V13
    R6688 (Beska, 1619bp): R-V164
    R6693 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): J-Z600
    R6701 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): R-BY157588
    R6730 (Sirmium, 1602bp): I-Y41633
    R9669 (Viminacium, 1730bp): J-Z1295
    R9673 (Viminacium, 1804bp): R-BY130797
    R9918 (Doclea_Bjelovine, 876.5bp): J-CTS6190
    R10478 (Emona, Slovenia, 1621bp):R-Y39302
    R12229 : Lebanon T-Y6033
    R3745 (Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia, 1878.25bp): E-y30977
    R9823 From Lebanon : 648 calCE-e-v22>y191043
    R3665 (Trogir_Dragulin, Croatia, 1779.5bp): j-y154988
    R10770 (Algerian -Numidian- male) E-M81
    R3742 (Zadar_Relja, Croatia, 1772.75bp):E-Y16161
    R3359 From Syria Tell_Masaikh 680 calCE -+J-ZS9098
    R11828 - Sardinia 1050 BC: y-DNA =
    I2a mtDNA = U5b3a2
    R11835 - Sardinia 788 BC: y-DNA = H2c1a -H-P96 - mtDNA = k1a2
    R11117 Isola_Sacra (Italy) is a female and not a male, 400 CE, mtDNA: X1 X1'2'3
    R11111 Isola_Sacra (Italy) 400 CE, Y-DNA: J-Z18216 mtDNA: R0a
    R11550 Male from France, Marxberg Necropolis 331 CE, y-DNA: J-Y29673 (J2), mtDNA: H26a1
    R11552 Male from France, Marxberg Necropolis y-DNA G-Y7538 mtDNA: H6a1a
    R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo; Croatia; E-v13>z38334
    R11558; 331 AD; France, Sarrebourg; y-DNA: R-YP4344 (R1a); mtDNA: H27+16093
    R3544; 550-601 AD; Gardun; Croatia- J2B2A>Z1043
    R3685; 435-565 AD; Velic; Croatia- G2A2B-L497>FGC8346*
    R11563 ; France, Marxberg Necropolis (Pons Saravi, Sarrebourg); y-DNA: R-U152 > R-Z193
    R10501; Portugal, Miroico; y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: U6a3b1
    R10840; 262-415 AD; Bailuliai, Lithuania;-R1A1A-Z280>YP4258
    R10494; Portugal, MontedaNora mtDNA: H1bj
    R10507; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: T1a1
    R10838 (Marvele, Lithuania, 1482bp)- N-L550
    R11546; 155 BC-1 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-R1B-Z2103>BY184752
    R3542 (Beli_Manastir, Croatia, 1619.75bp)-R-FGC22516
    R11119; 1-400 AD; Isola_Sacra, Italy-G2A2B>Y44432
    R3655 (Osijek, Croatia, 1453.25bp)-G-S18765
    R3660 (Scitarjevo, Croatia, 1453.25bp-I-Y151828
    R10487; Portugal, Conimbriga; mtDNA: H
    R3664 (Sipar, Croatia, 1198.75bp):e-ft1910
    R10502; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: K1a
    R2041 (Sisak_Pogorelec, Croatia, 1647bp)-j-y3143
    R10508; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: U6a3b1
    R3747 (Zadar_Poliklinika, Croatia, 1772.75bp)-R-Y3140
    R10499; Portugal, Miroico; y-DNA: R -CTS5531; mtDNA: J1c3
    R10626 Weklice Poland (41.5 calBCE 1864.75 212 calCE) Y-DNA R1b-S5488
    R10636 Weklice Poland (41.5 calBCE 1864.75 212 calCE) Y-DNA I1-A11380
    R11391 (Weklice, Poland, 1864.75bp)-G-Z1823
    R10620 (Weklice, Poland, 1938.5bp)-R-Z645
    R11653; 403 BC-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-L1A2>Y261585
    R11541; 43 BC-61 AD; Beniamin, Armenia;-R1B>Z2103>Y81705(x Y128347)
    R11536; 1046-924 BC; Beniamin, Armenia-I2C-L596>Y16419*
    R11675; 1491-1324 BC; Beniamin, Armenia-E-M84>FT278388*
    R3931; 130-231 AD; Viminacium, Serbia-E-V13>pre-Y178966
    R10501; 258-594 AD; Miroico, Portugal -R1B-DF27>CTS416
    R9673; 79-213 AD; Viminacium, Serbia- R1A-Z280>pre-Y88926
    R10503; 442-594 AD; Miroico, Portugal-R1B-DF27>by165817
    R10668; 131-246 AD; Wels, Austria-j2a2-pf5008>y3143
    R11542; 431-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-J2A1-M67>Y87966
    R3477; 435-565 AD; Chhim, Lebanon-R1B-M269*(x L23, PF7562)
    R11713; 403 BC-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-J2A-M67>fgc21364*
    R6688; 258-405 AD; Beska, Serbia-R1A-z2122>yp1269*
    R10836; 403-534 AD; Marvele, Lithuania-N-L550>Y-4707*
    Last edited by kingjohn; 25-05-22 at 20:11.
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    Ftdna path
    E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF196 2>M123>M34>L795>S11835>S12033>S11956>S11168>S10483 >BY96055

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    to be fair here are y haplogroups calls by adamm, rafc, david bush, pribislav from anthrogenica

    R6693: Serbia-J-Z585
    R10766: Algeria-G-ft54311
    R3481 (Doclea_Bjelovine, 1684.25bp): J-Z1043
    R3906 (Sirmium, 393.5bp): I-A11380
    R3918 (Sirmium, 878.75bp): J-CTS6190
    R3931 (Viminacium, 1770bp): E-V13
    R6688 (Beska, 1619bp): R-V164
    R6693 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): J-Z600
    R6701 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): R-BY157588
    R6730 (Sirmium, 1602bp): I-Y41633
    R9669 (Viminacium, 1730bp): J-Z1295
    R9673 (Viminacium, 1804bp): R-BY130797
    R9918 (Doclea_Bjelovine, 876.5bp): J-CTS6190
    R10478 (Emona, Slovenia, 1621bp):R-Y39302
    R12229 : Lebanon T-Y6033
    R3745 (Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia, 1878.25bp): E-y30977
    R9823 From Lebanon : 648 calCE-e-v22>y191043
    R3665 (Trogir_Dragulin, Croatia, 1779.5bp): j-y154988
    R10770 (Algerian -Numidian- male) E-M81
    R3742 (Zadar_Relja, Croatia, 1772.75bp):E-Y16161
    R3359 From Syria Tell_Masaikh 680 calCE -+J-ZS9098
    R11828 - Sardinia 1050 BC: y-DNA =
    I2a mtDNA = U5b3a2
    R11835 - Sardinia 788 BC: y-DNA = H2c1a -H-P96 - mtDNA = k1a2
    R11117 Isola_Sacra (Italy) is a female and not a male, 400 CE, mtDNA: X1 X1'2'3
    R11111 Isola_Sacra (Italy) 400 CE, Y-DNA: J-Z18216 mtDNA: R0a
    R11550 Male from France, Marxberg Necropolis 331 CE, y-DNA: J-Y29673 (J2), mtDNA: H26a1
    R11552 Male from France, Marxberg Necropolis y-DNA G-Y7538 mtDNA: H6a1a
    R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo; Croatia; E-v13>z38334
    R11558; 331 AD; France, Sarrebourg; y-DNA: R-YP4344 (R1a); mtDNA: H27+16093
    R3544; 550-601 AD; Gardun; Croatia- J2B2A>Z1043
    R3685; 435-565 AD; Velic; Croatia- G2A2B-L497>FGC8346*
    R11563 ; France, Marxberg Necropolis (Pons Saravi, Sarrebourg); y-DNA: R-U152 > R-Z193
    R10501; Portugal, Miroico; y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: U6a3b1
    R10840; 262-415 AD; Bailuliai, Lithuania;-R1A1A-Z280>YP4258
    R10494; Portugal, MontedaNora mtDNA: H1bj
    R10507; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: T1a1
    R10838 (Marvele, Lithuania, 1482bp)- N-L550
    R11546; 155 BC-1 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-R1B-Z2103>BY184752
    R3542 (Beli_Manastir, Croatia, 1619.75bp)-R-FGC22516
    R11119; 1-400 AD; Isola_Sacra, Italy-G2A2B>Y44432
    R3655 (Osijek, Croatia, 1453.25bp)-G-S18765
    R3660 (Scitarjevo, Croatia, 1453.25bp-I-Y151828
    R10487; Portugal, Conimbriga; mtDNA: H
    R3664 (Sipar, Croatia, 1198.75bp):e-ft1910
    R10502; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: K1a
    R2041 (Sisak_Pogorelec, Croatia, 1647bp)-j-y3143
    R10508; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: U6a3b1
    R3747 (Zadar_Poliklinika, Croatia, 1772.75bp)-R-Y3140
    R10499; Portugal, Miroico; y-DNA: R -CTS5531; mtDNA: J1c3
    R10626 Weklice Poland (41.5 calBCE 1864.75 212 calCE) Y-DNA R1b-S5488
    R10636 Weklice Poland (41.5 calBCE 1864.75 212 calCE) Y-DNA I1-A11380
    R11391 (Weklice, Poland, 1864.75bp)-G-Z1823
    R10620 (Weklice, Poland, 1938.5bp)-R-Z645
    R11653; 403 BC-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-L1A2>Y261585
    R11541; 43 BC-61 AD; Beniamin, Armenia;-R1B>Z2103>Y81705(x Y128347)
    R11536; 1046-924 BC; Beniamin, Armenia-I2C-L596>Y16419*
    R11675; 1491-1324 BC; Beniamin, Armenia-E-M84>FT278388*
    R3931; 130-231 AD; Viminacium, Serbia-E-V13>pre-Y178966
    R10501; 258-594 AD; Miroico, Portugal -R1B-DF27>CTS416
    R9673; 79-213 AD; Viminacium, Serbia- R1A-Z280>pre-Y88926
    R10503; 442-594 AD; Miroico, Portugal-R1B-DF27>by165817
    R10668; 131-246 AD; Wels, Austria-j2a2-pf5008>y3143
    R11542; 431-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-J2A1-M67>Y87966
    R3477; 435-565 AD; Chhim, Lebanon-R1B-M269*(x L23, PF7562)
    R11713; 403 BC-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-J2A-M67>fgc21364*
    R6688; 258-405 AD; Beska, Serbia-R1A-z2122>yp1269*
    R10836; 403-534 AD; Marvele, Lithuania-N-L550>Y-4707*
    Thanks for cataloguing this.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    to be fair here are y haplogroups calls by adamm, rafc, david bush, pribislav from anthrogenica

    R6693: Serbia-J-Z585
    R10766: Algeria-G-ft54311
    R3481 (Doclea_Bjelovine, 1684.25bp): J-Z1043
    R3906 (Sirmium, 393.5bp): I-A11380
    R3918 (Sirmium, 878.75bp): J-CTS6190
    R3931 (Viminacium, 1770bp): E-V13
    R6688 (Beska, 1619bp): R-V164
    R6693 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): J-Z600
    R6701 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): R-BY157588
    R6730 (Sirmium, 1602bp): I-Y41633
    R9669 (Viminacium, 1730bp): J-Z1295
    R9673 (Viminacium, 1804bp): R-BY130797
    R9918 (Doclea_Bjelovine, 876.5bp): J-CTS6190
    R10478 (Emona, Slovenia, 1621bp):R-Y39302
    R12229 : Lebanon T-Y6033
    R3745 (Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia, 1878.25bp): E-y30977
    R9823 From Lebanon : 648 calCE-e-v22>y191043
    R3665 (Trogir_Dragulin, Croatia, 1779.5bp): j-y154988
    R10770 (Algerian -Numidian- male) E-M81
    R3742 (Zadar_Relja, Croatia, 1772.75bp):E-Y16161
    R3359 From Syria Tell_Masaikh 680 calCE -+J-ZS9098
    R11828 - Sardinia 1050 BC: y-DNA =
    I2a mtDNA = U5b3a2
    R11835 - Sardinia 788 BC: y-DNA = H2c1a -H-P96 - mtDNA = k1a2
    R11117 Isola_Sacra (Italy) is a female and not a male, 400 CE, mtDNA: X1 X1'2'3
    R11111 Isola_Sacra (Italy) 400 CE, Y-DNA: J-Z18216 mtDNA: R0a
    R11550 Male from France, Marxberg Necropolis 331 CE, y-DNA: J-Y29673 (J2), mtDNA: H26a1
    R11552 Male from France, Marxberg Necropolis y-DNA G-Y7538 mtDNA: H6a1a
    R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo; Croatia; E-v13>z38334
    R11558; 331 AD; France, Sarrebourg; y-DNA: R-YP4344 (R1a); mtDNA: H27+16093
    R3544; 550-601 AD; Gardun; Croatia- J2B2A>Z1043
    R3685; 435-565 AD; Velic; Croatia- G2A2B-L497>FGC8346*
    R11563 ; France, Marxberg Necropolis (Pons Saravi, Sarrebourg); y-DNA: R-U152 > R-Z193
    R10501; Portugal, Miroico; y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: U6a3b1
    R10840; 262-415 AD; Bailuliai, Lithuania;-R1A1A-Z280>YP4258
    R10494; Portugal, MontedaNora mtDNA: H1bj
    R10507; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: T1a1
    R10838 (Marvele, Lithuania, 1482bp)- N-L550
    R11546; 155 BC-1 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-R1B-Z2103>BY184752
    R3542 (Beli_Manastir, Croatia, 1619.75bp)-R-FGC22516
    R11119; 1-400 AD; Isola_Sacra, Italy-G2A2B>Y44432
    R3655 (Osijek, Croatia, 1453.25bp)-G-S18765
    R3660 (Scitarjevo, Croatia, 1453.25bp-I-Y151828
    R10487; Portugal, Conimbriga; mtDNA: H
    R3664 (Sipar, Croatia, 1198.75bp):e-ft1910
    R10502; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: K1a
    R2041 (Sisak_Pogorelec, Croatia, 1647bp)-j-y3143
    R10508; Portugal, Miroico; mtDNA: U6a3b1
    R3747 (Zadar_Poliklinika, Croatia, 1772.75bp)-R-Y3140
    R10499; Portugal, Miroico; y-DNA: R -CTS5531; mtDNA: J1c3
    R10626 Weklice Poland (41.5 calBCE 1864.75 212 calCE) Y-DNA R1b-S5488
    R10636 Weklice Poland (41.5 calBCE 1864.75 212 calCE) Y-DNA I1-A11380
    R11391 (Weklice, Poland, 1864.75bp)-G-Z1823
    R10620 (Weklice, Poland, 1938.5bp)-R-Z645
    R11653; 403 BC-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-L1A2>Y261585
    R11541; 43 BC-61 AD; Beniamin, Armenia;-R1B>Z2103>Y81705(x Y128347)
    R11536; 1046-924 BC; Beniamin, Armenia-I2C-L596>Y16419*
    R11675; 1491-1324 BC; Beniamin, Armenia-E-M84>FT278388*
    R3931; 130-231 AD; Viminacium, Serbia-E-V13>pre-Y178966
    R10501; 258-594 AD; Miroico, Portugal -R1B-DF27>CTS416
    R9673; 79-213 AD; Viminacium, Serbia- R1A-Z280>pre-Y88926
    R10503; 442-594 AD; Miroico, Portugal-R1B-DF27>by165817
    R10668; 131-246 AD; Wels, Austria-j2a2-pf5008>y3143
    R11542; 431-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-J2A1-M67>Y87966
    R3477; 435-565 AD; Chhim, Lebanon-R1B-M269*(x L23, PF7562)
    R11713; 403 BC-545 AD; Beniamin, Armenia-J2A-M67>fgc21364*
    R6688; 258-405 AD; Beska, Serbia-R1A-z2122>yp1269*
    R10836; 403-534 AD; Marvele, Lithuania-N-L550>Y-4707*
    Thanks!

    More non-E-V13 haplogroup E than E-V13 so far.

    Makes the older, known Viminacium samples more special kind of.

  7. #207
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Thanks!

    More non-E-V13 haplogroup E than E-V13 so far.

    Makes the older, known Viminacium samples more special kind of.
    in this research
    i am counting :
    3 e-v13 all from europe ( 2 from croatia+ 1 from serbia)
    2 e-v22( 1 from croatia + 1 from lebanon)
    2- e-m123( 1 from croatia+ 1 from armenia)
    don't forget that of some of the samples in this research were from west asia
    so it is natural we would see more non-e-v13 E ( like e-v22 and e-m123)

    e-v13 is a european haplogroup the fact that it exist today in kurds and some druze could be brought
    by back migration i dont think it is native to west asia but to europe


    p.s
    and non e-v13 are more likely to appear in roman influenced areas
    cosmoplitan who attract traders, administrators, or auxilary soldiers from far away who were stationed there

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    in this research
    i am counting :
    3 e-v13 all from europe ( 2 from croatia+ 1 from serbia)
    2 e-v22( 1 from croatia + 1 from lebanon)
    2- e-m123( 1 from croatia+ 1 from armenia)
    don't forget that of some of the samples in this research were from west asia
    so it is natural we would see more non-e-v13 E ( like e-v22 and e-m123)

    e-v13 is a european haplogroup the fact that it exist today in kurds and some druze could be brought
    by back migration i dont think it is native to west asia but to europe


    p.s
    and non e-v13 are more likely to appear in roman influenced areas
    cosmoplitan who attract traders, administrators, or auxilary soldiers from far away who were stationed there
    Absolutely agreed, was my impression too. But its rather surprising, somewhat, still, that E-V13 was not more common in the so far made samples. But this might be sampling bias from the study too, because otherwise the massive dominance of E-V13 in the other Viminacium sampling is not explainable. Probably they looked for more exotic burials which were likely to be migrants in some cases?
    We'll see how the rest scores.

  9. #209
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    E-V13 were probably mountain people, they likely refused to blend with Roman and Romanized people. The Thracian mountainers unlike the Thracian lowland people were complete savages, they would have put great resistance probably like the Bessi did.

    In Viminacium sample it was explicitely stated that E-V13 was the native lineage and represented for 45% of the population, and if not for cremation likely the percentage would have been higher.

    We have gone through this several times, E-V13 percentage was reduced by Slavic migrations and not increased like some people tend to give the impression by selective-pressure-logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    E-V13 were probably mountain people, they likely refused to blend with Roman and Romanized people. The Thracian mountainers unlike the Thracian lowland people were complete savages, they would have put great resistance probably like the Bessi did.

    In Viminacium sample it was explicitely stated that E-V13 was the native lineage and represented for 45% of the population, and if not for cremation likely the percentage would have been higher.

    We have gone through this several times, E-V13 percentage was reduced by Slavic migrations and not increased like some people tend to give the impression by selective-pressure-logic.
    I think E-V13 spread quite a bit with Slavs, but it did obviously not reach the percentages in some old core regions it had before. Because even if incoming Slavs had let's say about 10-20 percent E-V13, which they probably had not, just as an hypothetical example, this will bring former hotspots like the area of Viminacium down from its probably 70-80 percent among the local Balkan IA population.
    Slavs could, however, bring E-V13 to regions which had a lower or no presence of E-V13 before, that seems to have happened quite a bit, but needs to be investigated in detail to be sure as well.

  11. #211
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think E-V13 spread quite a bit with Slavs, but it did obviously not reach the percentages in some old core regions it had before. Because even if incoming Slavs had let's say about 10-20 percent E-V13, which they probably had not, just as an hypothetical example, this will bring former hotspots like the area of Viminacium down from its probably 70-80 percent among the local Balkan IA population.
    Slavs could, however, bring E-V13 to regions which had a lower or no presence of E-V13 before, that seems to have happened quite a bit, but needs to be investigated in detail to be sure as well.
    They just met them there scattered. For instance E-V13 along with J2b2-L283 is way lower in Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia where we see a peak on Slavic ancestry. And J2b2-L283 from the data so far was like I2a2 of todays Dalmatia, but probably a lot of them after the Pannnonian-Dalmatian revolt ended up as slaves in South-Italy while others were relocated somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    They just met them there scattered. For instance E-V13 along with J2b2-L283 is way lower in Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia where we see a peak on Slavic ancestry. And J2b2-L283 from the data so far was like I2a2 of todays Dalmatia, but probably a lot of them after the Pannnonian-Dalmatian revolt ended up as slaves in South-Italy while others were relocated somewhere else.
    I think that E-V13 is now higher in some former J-L283 core territories is obviously not fully, but partly explained by Germanics and especially Slavs coming in and bringing it from the Carpathian sphere.

    Slovenia, imho, is probably not such a strong argument, because the Slovenians seem to have taken a different route, having experienced different contacts and founder effects. Like:



    If going by a similar model, its obviously rather the Eastern route groups (Bulgarians, Serbs) which took up more E-V13 at home and on the way.

    Different model/map, same result with the Slovenian Slavic ancestors coming from groups with the least early contacts to Dacians/Daco-Sarmatians, Eastern Pannonians-Danubians:


    Therefore I think the early Slavs coming to Slovenia had less and those going to Bulgaria and Serbia had more from the start. Not the bulk, that might still be local, but it caused a major difference already. This would also be in line with a low but noticeable presence of E-V13 in practically all Slavs and East Slavs included, and not all can be explained by later Vlach contacts by any strech of imagination.

    But with more data we will see how much overlap there is, between all the modern branches, not just by ancient DNA.

    It's also quite telling that E-V13 has its potential "first Slavic uptick" with I-CTS10936, not with R-M458! So they were in the R-Z280 + I-CTS10936 expansion. The first R-M458 plus other R-Z280 branches expansion of the Slavs happened earlier and independently from that.

    This clearly points to an Eastern-Southern going route, not the Western one. And E-V13 is in synchrony with this. Its only a limited uptick, but quite significant nevertheless. Its also the biggest uptick since the Roman conquest era.

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    Can you guys keep your Microsoft Paint EV-13 arrows away from this thread please? Stick to the topic at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Can you guys keep your Microsoft Paint EV-13 arrows away from this thread please? Stick to the topic at hand.
    Its part of this thread, because the samples found so far are comparatively low. But if you have new uniparentals or auDNA from the papers samples, please step forward :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Can you guys keep your Microsoft Paint EV-13 arrows away from this thread please? Stick to the topic at hand.
    You are lucky you say this words behind the screen. That's all i can say.

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    R9823 MALE 599.5 calCE 648 calCE RADIOCARBON Chhim 33.622519 35.499985 Lebanon

    In K36

    Distance to: 9823
    0.69985305 Samaritan
    0.82137507 Lebanon_Orthodox_Christian
    0.99014342 Lebanon_Maronite
    1.05679931 Palestinian
    1.09102291 Hatay_Nusayri
    1.17311167 Lebanon_Shia
    1.22063670 Iraqi_Jew
    1.34197019 Lebanon_Sunni
    1.39895211 Jordanian
    1.55781401 IQ_Syriac

    Target: 9823 | ADC: 0.5x
    66.0 Samaritan
    31.6 Lebanon_Maronite
    1.7 Hatay_Nusayri
    0.7 Iraqi_Jew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You are lucky you say this words behind the screen. That's all i can say.
    If you saw me in real life you'd change your mind very quickly. None of your EV-13 "mountainous brethren" would help you out.

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    Did we get autosomal analysis for the Montenegrin in 200-300 AD? It's still missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    If you saw me in real life you'd change your mind very quickly. None of your EV-13 "mountainous brethren" would help you out.
    If......don't bring anyone outside, i don't need anyone's help. You are a big mouther and squealer. Nothing worthy coming from you, neither online neither IRL.

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    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    If.............

    that would be cool to watch illiryan j2b2 against an e-v13 thracian




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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    If......don't bring anyone outside, i don't need anyone's help. You are a big mouther and squealer. Nothing worthy coming from you, neither online neither IRL.
    Can you please spare me as a fellow E-V13?

    Now cut this civil war and focus on topics. It’s embarrassing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Can you please spare me as a fellow E-V13?

    Now cut this civil war and focus on topics. It’s embarrassing.
    Don't dick-hop on someone else's discussion. He was being disrespectful several times in a discussion which was not involving him. This is personal and not "civil war".

    Plus, i highly doubt you are E-V13, there is no Z5017 Dushmani member, go tell those stories somewhere else.

    In addition, i have personal friends belonging to J2b2, don't bring that bullshit on bringing or labeling names to me because you don' like what we write. Likewise you insult all the time "Ottoman-lovers" yet you carry on a nickname which has a meaning in Ottoman Turkish. Start the change from within because it's a paradox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Don't dick-hop on someone else's discussion. He was being disrespectful several times in a discussion which was not involving him. This is personal and not "civil war".

    Plus, i highly doubt you are E-V13, there is no Z5017 Dushmani member, go tell those stories somewhere else.

    In addition, i have personal friends belonging to J2b2, don't bring that bullshit on bringing or labeling names to me because you don' like what we write. Likewise you insult all the time "Ottoman-lovers" yet you carry on a nickname which has a meaning in Ottoman Turkish. Start the change from within because it's a paradox.
    It is clear to everyone here that we're divided between pro-Illyrian vs pro-Thracian, with pro-Illyrian being hopeful of future data and the Kosovars having made up their mind they're Thracian as if it's already proven.

    My nickname is Dushman, there's 0 threads where I claimed to be of the Dushmani clan of North-Western Albania. I am from a neighbouring tribe of the Dushmani and we have intermarried for hundreds of years. The nickname choice of Dushman is also not related to Turkish dushman (enemy) although that's a funny coincidence.

    I am indeed Z5017>Z17107>BY4461, that same branch as Unikkatil (another coincidence) and Trojet knows this very well because my results were posted on their project as well as Rrenjet. I have no reason to lie about it. If I wanted to lie I'd choose J2b2 since it appears it was dominant among early Illyrians.

    That said, although we're not the same, we look different, we speak different dialects with extremely different accents, we have different opinions, different allegiances, different religious views, please let's stop these embarrassing arguments in front of everyone. Unfortunately (for me at least), we both claim to be Albanian even though I see you as much of a foreigner as I see Montenegrins, Serbs, and Greeks. Peace!

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    It is clear to everyone here that we're divided between pro-Illyrian vs pro-Thracian, with pro-Illyrian being hopeful of future data and the Kosovars having made up their mind they're Thracian as if it's already proven.

    My nickname is Dushman, there's 0 threads where I claimed to be of the Dushmani clan of North-Western Albania. I am from a neighbouring tribe of the Dushmani and we have intermarried for hundreds of years. The nickname choice of Dushman is also not related to Turkish dushman (enemy) although that's a funny coincidence.

    I am indeed Z5017>Z17107>BY4461, that same branch as Unikkatil (another coincidence) and Trojet knows this very well because my results were posted on their project as well as Rrenjet. I have no reason to lie about it. If I wanted to lie I'd choose J2b2 since it appears it was dominant among early Illyrians.

    That said, although we're not the same, we look different, we speak different dialects with extremely different accents, we have different opinions, different allegiances, different religious views, please let's stop these embarrassing arguments in front of everyone. Unfortunately (for me at least), we both claim to be Albanian even though I see you as much of a foreigner as I see Montenegrins, Serbs, and Greeks. Peace!
    Well, your opinion on how you view me is your problem not mine, and about your opinion nobody cares really. And, the nickname you carry on is not a funny coincidence, it's a fact. It has a solid meaning in Ottoman-Turkish and not some dushk + mana.

    To conclude, no one here has chosen Proto-Thracian vs Proto-Illyrian, we were just discussing possibilites, and me initially even proposed the Urnfield influence on Illyrians was E-V13 dominated (something which was rejected all the time by Oroku Saki and Riverman) saying that the Urnfielders in North-West Croatia were different but if E-V13 keeps popping out like these two ones recently then i was right (but anyway Andreas Lippert has changed his mind on the 2021 Matzinger book and he thinks the Urnfielders didn't left much of a legacy on Glasinac Illyrians,), second thing if i am right is Southern Illyrians. I do expect E-V13 there especially on people like Enchelei, but to what degree i am not sure and i cannot say precisely.

    What's embarrasing is someone coming in the middle of conversation and throwing ad-hominems, low IQ sarcasm out of nowhere, without being mentioned or insulted. I already told him he is lucky he doesn't do that IRL. Very lucky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    that would be cool to watch illiryan j2b2 against an e-v13 thracian



    Hawk has strong IE autosomal DNA, I bet he is wide shouldered, and has good stiff punches. The weasel, based on his anti-social personality, is no warrior. No man talks like that.

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