Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

Riverman said:
I didn't suggest they were anything else, but they had at least significant cultural influences. Like you find the horse breed, horse bits, warrior gear, weapons etc. from the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon in Este. As well as a lot of contacts to Fr�g and other East Hallstatt groups from Austria, which were Basarabi influenced.
This doesn't make them anything else but Urnfielders and between Italics and Illyrians ethnically, in my opinion. These are just influences and contacts to the Eastern Urnfield and Thraco-Cimmerian groups, which may have brought some migration, some gene flow. More than in the neighbouring Illyrians proper which had less such contacts and were not part of these networks (Urnfield, Hallstatt).



They were so from the start, because Noua-Sabatinovka was their influence and opponent at the same time. Their direct neighbour and influence was coming from the mixed Noua-Wietenberg group in Transylvania. Its even possible they were a formative element of G�va in a way, but rather they were the opponents from which they still learnt something I guess.
Later they had strong influences from the Cimmerians, obviously, but not everywhere as much, and the Scythians - same pattern.

So yes, Iranian influences were there all the time since the earliest stage (Pre-G�va).
Click to expand...

I hope that you know that Thraco-Cimmerian might just denote more like a cultural, innovation influence. What do these people share though is through the Urnfielder Culture common ancestry, the Este descends or share a common ancestry with Proto-VIllanovan, the Proto-Villanova has been noted before to share similarities with Gava and Dubovac-Zuto-Brdo/Grla-Mara. Though by all means this should not mean common Y-DNA, partial shared yes.

How i see and reflect on things is that E-V13 scretched into these culture but more inland Central Balkans to Carpathian Mountains.

Vatin/Grla-Mara/Dubovac and even perhaps Vatya and Brnjica would represent a mixed E-V13 groups with other Y-DNA, while the Gava core should represent a group explicitly carrying E-V13 haplogroup (if i am right). I am just not sure if some E-V13 was before Middle Bronze Age in Cruceni-Belegis and Vatin/Grla Mara or were the Szeremle group who were pushed from Tumulus warriors during their conquest of Pannonia and Southern Central Europe. Could be that Szeremle group who came from Tisza river were part of the story of E-V13, and the other part is the Channeled-Ware rise during Bronze to Iron Age transition who technically imposed themselves upon Tumulus and Encrusted Pottery People but also to the Szeremle/Vatin and the rest causing the domino effect all around and the so called Aegean migration. This migrations probably already started during Middle Bronze Age but they were intensified after the Gava and Tumulus clash down the Danube.
 
Can just agree. As for Thraco-Cimmerian, the question is whether some elites and specialists came with the archaeological influence observable.
It was long debated how the Hallstatt elite emerged, might be in part from new horse warriors and specialists, at least in part from the Mezocsat core group.
But will probably hard to prove or disprove because of the widespread cremation.
 
enter_tain said:
Awesome. He's Z638 too right? This one will be without a doubt the closest to Proto-Albanians.

My guess would be he plots just south of modern Albanians. So take away 5-10% Gothic and 15-20% Slavic from modern Albanians and you'll get this guy.
Click to expand...

Oh wow. Look at that. Who would have thought?

qd46SuW.png


This early Montenegro sample is as close of a sample we've have to a Proto-Albanian. Maybe not 100%, but 90% of the way there. Definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians.
 
Jovialis said:
@Archetype0ne
To me it looks like Albanians are south Italian-like (Greek-like) + Northeastern European (Slavic). Rather than associated with Northern Italy.
Click to expand...

Btw, Jovialis. This was pretty much confirmed if we use this dude as a proxy.
 
R3481 (211-320.5 calCE, Doclea, Montenegro: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043)

Global G25

Distance to: Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481___AD_266___Coverage_56.57%
0.01368605 Italian_Abruzzo
0.01487748 Italian_Umbria
0.01522878 Italian_Marche
0.01567733 Italian_Lazio
0.01691307 Italian_Molise
0.01894819 Italian_Apulia
0.01958602 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK536
0.02171484 Italian_Basilicata
0.02220360 Italian_Tuscany
0.02258576 Sicilian_West
0.02283162 Greek_Thessaly
0.02406283 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.02431840 Italian_Campania
0.02438348 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK535
0.02472036 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.02483790 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.02493685 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02498039 Greek_Izmir

Eurogenes K13

Distance to: Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481___AD_266___Coverage_56.57%
5.04560205 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
6.47954474 Italian_Lazio
6.86698624 Italian_Marche
7.03960226 Italian_Abruzzo
7.18844211 Italian_Abruzzo
7.20278418 Italian_Apulia
7.26296771 Italian_Molise
7.53385691 West_Sicilian
7.56892991 Italian_Umbria
7.57574419 Italian_Basilicata
8.18113073 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.22153270 Italian_Sicily
8.56770681 Greek_Cyclades
8.74476415 Italian_Campania
8.80000000 Greek_Samos
8.91353465 Italian_Romagna
9.15834592 Central_Greek
9.19088135 Greek_Kefalonia
9.19248606 Greek_Athens
9.57304549 South_Italian
9.69286335 Tuscan
9.70632783 Greek_Euboea_South
9.95081404 Greek_Central

Thanks Trojet for the update!
 
That Albanian from Mirdite really should be removed until we get more samples from there.
 
enter_tain said:
Oh wow. Look at that. Who would have thought?

qd46SuW.png


This early Montenegro sample is as close of a sample we've have to a Proto-Albanian. Maybe not 100%, but 90% of the way there. Definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians.
Click to expand...



What makes you think that this mixed Illyrian-East Med who lived in a Roman city is a good proxy for Proto-Albanians? When you wrote that he is "definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians" where you exactly did you infer this information from? This person carried ancestry which didn't exist in the Balkans before the Romans. Neither "Albanian Illyrians" or any other Illyrians would carry many types of ancestry he carries. Maybe you should check them.


Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0719% / 0.01071892 | R5P
42.6 HRV_EIA
20.8 ARM_LBA
14.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0982% / 0.01098211 | R5P
34.0 HRV_EIA
26.4 ARM_LBA
21.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
7.2 Levant_JOR_EBA

Doclea.png
 
mount123 said:
This is an early Iapygian sample and his clade is mostly found in the Hoti tribe and the Y21878>FT29003>Cluster from Albanians of North Macedonia. There is a variety of clades under J-Z597 starting from ancient BCE samples from the Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture and continuing in the Iron Age Illyrians. The Daunian J2b-L283 samples are unfortunately low coverage.

ID
NEO806
Date (mean)
1063 BCE
Phylogeny
J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
Archaeological Context
Italy_BronzeAge
Site
Grotta Delle Mura
Location
40.957, 17.29
Source
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v1

J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

As I have said before, this early East Adriatic migration pattern can only be possible if >Z638+ was already on the other side of the ocean which it was, more accurately in the Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture.

Also, this is important to point out since some who have no idea about the phylogeny of J2b-L283 are repeatedly spreading misinformation when it comes to the ancient samples in question. This is my earlier post on this thread regarding this topic:
Click to expand...

Of course we know the Daunians ( known as Iapodes in the croatian/slovenian border ) arrived in Foggia area of italy late bronze and early iron age ...........one would guess they also migrated through liburnian and dalmatian lands , but do we have a time frame fro this southern movement ?
 
Hawk said:
Veneti-Histri and partially Liburni had nothing to do with the so called Thraco-Cimmerian horizont, they were part of Este Culture, an Urnfield Culture variant. AFAIK, Slovenan archaeologists also involve Lausitz Culture in case of this people, hard to guess.

As i have been telling before, the Daco-Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Indo-Iranian culture, the Phrygian cap is likely an early Indo-Iranian element, and many of the clothes, attire, religious beliefs. Though they were patriliearly descended from Gava Urnfielders they differed a lot from them in many aspects which includes these Steppe Indo-Iranian influences.
Click to expand...
Veneti also have Polada culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture
 
Excine said:
What makes you think that this mixed Illyrian-East Med who lived in a Roman city is a good proxy for Proto-Albanians? When you wrote that he is "definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians" where you exactly did you infer this information from? This person carried ancestry which didn't exist in the Balkans before the Romans. Neither "Albanian Illyrians" or any other Illyrians would carry many types of ancestry he carries. Maybe you should check them.


Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0719% / 0.01071892 | R5P
42.6 HRV_EIA
20.8 ARM_LBA
14.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0982% / 0.01098211 | R5P
34.0 HRV_EIA
26.4 ARM_LBA
21.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
7.2 Levant_JOR_EBA

Doclea.png
Click to expand...

Proto-Albanians lived in Late Antiquity during the Roman Empire, not the Bronze Age. This is a Z638 in Montenegro, where we have a southern Dalmatian popping up with the same Y-DNA.

I would also point you out to the fact that 2/3rds of the Albanian Vocabulary is Latin genius.
 
Hawk said:
Well, certainly i would really like to know about the Veneti-Histri people, what Y-DNA they carried, because archaeology states that they derived from Este Culture which in turn shared a common ancestor with Proto-VIllanovan. Somehow things are a bit messy, and i guess the Urnfield Cultural Complex should mean that in this cultural complex there was various Y-DNA participating and sharing in this networking channel which shared common beliefs, rituals, and lifestyle.

I am guessing we should play the hard game of comparing the burials with pre-Urnfield/Hallstatt and post to deduce who was the lineage because the bearers of these culture unfortunately cremated their deaths and we require a science-fiction tool to get the DNA from the ashes in urn.
Click to expand...

Veneti-Histri was established late as one unit/region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetia_et_Histria
 
Excine said:
What makes you think that this mixed Illyrian-East Med who lived in a Roman city is a good proxy for Proto-Albanians? When you wrote that he is "definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians" where you exactly did you infer this information from? This person carried ancestry which didn't exist in the Balkans before the Romans. Neither "Albanian Illyrians" or any other Illyrians would carry many types of ancestry he carries. Maybe you should check them.


Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0719% / 0.01071892 | R5P
42.6 HRV_EIA
20.8 ARM_LBA
14.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0982% / 0.01098211 | R5P
34.0 HRV_EIA
26.4 ARM_LBA
21.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
7.2 Levant_JOR_EBA

Doclea.png
Click to expand...
These samples and more of them in the future will be extremely meaningful and useful for us to understand the demographic changes in the Balkans and elsewhere.

The presence of this Levantine admixture could be responsible as well as explain the Eastern shift of Albanians.

Knowing the limitations of PCA plots, simplistic views such as purely 20% Slavic North-East shift do not seem convincing.

How about North-East (Slavic, Dacian, Scythian, or even Cimmerian) + North (Germamic, Gothic, Norman) + Eastern (Anatolian, Armenian, Levantine, Greek islands)?

The separate Northern and Eastern shifts are completely ignored and all attributed to Slavs.

Yet we know both from history, archaeology, and now genetics the presence of Celts, Germanic tribesmen, Syrians, etc. in the Balkans. The Syrians even brought their religious cults with them, then we have Moesian Goths, Thracian Goths, Pannonian Goths, etc.

They all left and the Balkans is just Illyro-Thracian and Slavic?
 
Riverman said:
One is from Foggia, seems to have a good tree back to the 17th century, the other has no good tree, but his surname is most common in Lazio, Tuscany and Abruzzo, much rarer in the North East.
Click to expand...

Can you show me a link? On FTDNA, surnames are often incorrectly reported if they are ancestors of Italians who migrated abroad.
 
Two from those E-V13 in Croatia have local autosomal, one E-V13 -> Z5018 from Viminacium has more of a Germanic/Central European autosomal.
 
Hawk said:
Two from those E-V13 in Croatia have local autosomal, one E-V13 -> Z5018 from Viminacium has more of a Germanic/Central European autosomal.
Click to expand...

The two from Croatia being clearly integrated locally. The question is just since when.

Pax Augusta said:
Can you show me a link? On FTDNA, surnames are often incorrectly reported if they are ancestors of Italians who migrated abroad.
Click to expand...


They should be both under E-BY152552 or E-FT96633 in the M35 project iirc:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/e3b?iframe=yresults
 
Dushman said:
These samples and more of them in the future will be extremely meaningful and useful for us to understand the demographic changes in the Balkans and elsewhere.

The presence of this Levantine admixture could be responsible as well as explain the Eastern shift of Albanians.

Knowing the limitations of PCA plots, simplistic views such as purely 20% Slavic North-East shift do not seem convincing.

How about North-East (Slavic, Dacian, Scythian, or even Cimmerian) + North (Germamic, Gothic, Norman) + Eastern (Anatolian, Armenian, Levantine, Greek islands)?

The separate Northern and Eastern shifts are completely ignored and all attributed to Slavs.

Yet we know both from history, archaeology, and now genetics the presence of Celts, Germanic tribesmen, Syrians, etc. in the Balkans. The Syrians even brought their religious cults with them, then we have Moesian Goths, Thracian Goths, Pannonian Goths, etc.

They all left and the Balkans is just Illyro-Thracian and Slavic?
Click to expand...

Mate it's simple Y-DNA analysis. What introduction of Y-DNAs do we see in the Balkans during or right before the Middle Ages?

R1a, I2, and I1. First two are Slavic, second are Gothic. R1a and I2 specifically go 20-30% in southern Albania. Goths were also eastern Germanic, that made their way through eastern Europe and eastern Balkans, so they wouldn't have been too far off Slavs.
 
mount123 said:
Yes, that was my first thought too. Also keeping in mind that these are AD samples not BCE. Population dynamics can change. Compare them to Latins that are R1b-U152 in the Iron Age, in the AD times there would definitely be also absorbed or other lineages.
Click to expand...

Latins and Etruscans were R1b (including various subclades not just U152) J2b, G and T.

Old Greeks were likely dominated by J2a and Illyrians were dominated by J2b in the same way Italic people were dominated by R1b. But they likely carried some E-V13 lines.

I would understand if E-V13 was a distant line like I1 in Northern Germany or Scandinavia. But Thracians and Dacians lived right next to Illyrians how come they remained unmolested by E-V13 during the IA?
 
I also don't get what the people in Anthrogenica are crying about, especially that Bruzmi guy. We looked at those Italian samples literally the day before the study came out, and pretty much determined Albanians would be Southern Italian-like + some Slavic.

C26qdAp.png


We get a southern Italian like guy in Doclea/Roman Montenegro, and they start crying about "eastern shifts". All of Southern Europe had an "eastern shift", geniuses.
 
Jovialis wrote this right before the samples came out

Jovialis said:
@Archetype0ne
To me it looks like Albanians are south Italian-like (Greek-like) + Northeastern European (Slavic). Rather than associated with Northern Italy.
Click to expand...
 
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