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Thread: Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews. Preprint.

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    Maybe in this city who knows

    After the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and the associated dispersion (diaspora) of the Jews, there is evidence of a Jewish community in Cologne. In 321 CE, Emperor Constantine approved the settlement of a Jewish community with all the freedoms of Roman citizens. It is assumed that it was located near the Marspforte within the city wall. The Edict of Constantine to the Jews is the oldest documented evidence in Germany.[9][10]

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    Ftdna path
    E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF196 2>M123>M34>L795>S11835>S12033>S11956>S11168>S10483 >BY96055

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^That's all true, but to the best of my recollection there were already well-established Jewish communities in some German cities by the 9th century.

    Now, whether their numbers were increased by migration from Southern Italy and Sicily hundreds of years later I don't know. I do know many of the Jews expelled by Spaniards fled to Ottoman domains where they were treated better.

    I think that might have been a better bet for them than Germany, where beginning at the time of the First Crusade in 1096, they had already been decimated by pogroms, pogroms which continued in successive centuries.

    Regardless, it does seem to be rather a consensus among Jewish researchers that, as you say, the route was though Italy, perhaps picking up ancestry along the way.
    From looking at how they are composed using the K8 model, I think it is likely that they are some kind of Southern European with a clear Near eastern (actual levantine Jewish) influence.



    They look different from C5 and C4, but look like they are more C6 but with a blend of C4 and 5.

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    The Erfurt EU looks like it clusters with Northern Greece/Balkans and the Erfurt ME looks like it clusters with Late Antiquity Eastern Mediterranean.

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    ^^Modern Ashkenazi (from the original Dodecad K12b sample set) are closer to Erfurt ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    The Erfurt EU looks like it clusters with Northern Greece/Balkans and the Erfurt ME looks like it clusters with Late Antiquity Eastern Mediterranean.
    Interesting how Erfurt EU and Erfurt ME are so distant from one another.

    Perhaps Modern Ashkenazi moved "north" on the PCA because of the Slavic admixture?

    Also interesting how there's so much variation for them in the K8 model. Wonder what causes it.


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    Not sure, I still haven't had a chance to read the paper even. But an interesting observation is that they all get Bolshoy, which Northeastern Europeans mostly seem to get too.

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    the erfurt data is here:

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets

    p.s
    it is waldman paper
    i think this is where davidski and erikl86
    anlaysed the data because i don't see any bam in ENA site nada

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    the erfurt data is here:

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets

    p.s
    it is waldman paper
    i think this is where davidski and erikl86
    anlaysed the data because i don't see any bam in ENA site nada
    I took the dataset from the same place, … same data, different calculator:

    … (some of us, avoid using calculators made by people with a bias against my people !)

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post649177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I took the dataset from the same place, … same data, different calculator:

    … (some of us, avoid using calculators made by people with a bias against my people !)

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post649177
    salento
    is there is any way you can do the same great job you did with those erfurt k12b values
    with eurogenes k13 values of these erfurt remains
    ( or you need admixture studio for it )?
    that would great

    p.s
    i am very interested to see there eurogenes k13 values
    of those 2 groups erfurt _ me and erfurt_ eu

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    salento
    is there is any way you can do the same great job you did with those erfurt k12b values
    with eurogenes k13 values of these erfurt remains
    ( or you need admixture studio for it )?
    that would great

    p.s
    i am very interested to see there eurogenes k13 values
    of those 2 groups erfurt _ me and erfurt_ eu
    ... the only reason I do the EU K13 is because you asked me.

    ... Testing my data: I know that I processed the Datasets in the same way as those that processed the SZ Dataset to produce the EU K13 coordinates, because I can replicate their results with my Dataset.

    I used the ENA .fastq for most of the SZ Dod. Globe 13, I only used the Dataset for 8 of the SZ samples.

    ... testing some of my EU K13 dataset results vs Vahaduo EU K13 (exactly the same, my processed Datasets are correct, obviously each calculator will give a different result).




    All the EU K13 Waldman 2022 divided by "OK" coverage, and 'very low' coverage:

    ... OK coverage
    Code:
    I13861_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_28.29%,12.99,6.72,19.54,13.05,39.70,5.71,1.38,0,0,0,0.79,0,0.12
    I13862_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_70.83%,15.74,18.25,16.62,10.77,25.75,5.79,4.35,0.17,1.29,0.57,0.35,0.34,0
    I13863_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_22.78%,11.55,4.48,21.79,9.91,39.93,7.34,0,1.35,0.05,0.63,1.08,1.85,0.04
    I13864_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_58.15%,14.81,2.66,23.98,8.73,40.12,6.57,1.25,0,0,0,0,0.73,1.14
    I13865_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_47.43%,17.88,4.47,20.21,7.77,38.18,7.80,0,1.56,0,0,0.56,1.31,0.27
    I13866_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_55.33%,20.08,14.61,17.13,8.85,29.51,2.19,3.09,1.55,1.02,1.07,0.74,0,0.16
    I13867_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_67.05%,16.78,7.86,18.13,8.62,35.15,8.26,0,1.29,0.85,1.12,0,0.96,0.97
    I13868_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_53.41%,19.16,16.65,19.12,8.91,25.89,3.36,1.20,1.65,0,1.09,0.56,1.91,0.51
    I13869_F-Eurogenes_K13_cov_52.00%,21.51,10.25,20.09,10.05,23.53,8.58,0,2.06,3.08,0,0,0.87,0
    I13870_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_31.52%,13.58,4.34,17.24,9.14,45.54,8.29,0.33,0,0,0,1.20,0.34,0
    I14736_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_59.21%,19.56,6.60,18.48,11.94,31.29,8.44,0,0.14,1.06,0.16,0,0.83,1.49
    I14737_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_33.67%,11.47,9.62,18.66,7.59,41.51,6.90,0,0,0.29,0,1.12,0,2.84
    I14738_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_71.04%,20.15,18.10,15.23,11.82,23.57,5.78,1.57,1.10,1.03,1.66,0,0,0
    I14739_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_28.47%,12.40,4.80,22.29,11.32,38.35,7.23,0,0.68,0,0,0.90,1.52,0.52
    I14740_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_71.84%,19.57,17.26,14.24,11.71,24.38,5.62,0.59,0.95,2.74,0.92,0,1.11,0.89
    I14741_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_10.95%,12.93,8.67,21.80,3.99,45.21,3.90,1.15,1.32,0.17,0,0.88,0,0
    I14846_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_5.18%,12.51,0,23.57,12.53,36.95,8.84,1.44,2.30,0,0,0,0,1.86
    I14847_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_73.06%,21.60,14.38,17.23,9.46,27.99,3.47,1.45,1.94,0,0.38,0.50,0.09,1.51
    I14850_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_49.02%,20.19,18.50,14.35,11.37,29.36,2.14,0,0,1.76,0,0.36,1.28,0.69
    I14851_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_38.41%,14.96,5.43,18.68,11.97,38.70,6.66,0,0.94,0,1.30,0.06,0.87,0.42
    I14852_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_22.05%,19.71,3.72,19.29,11.88,34.34,9.97,0,0.48,0,0.39,0.22,0,0
    I14853_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_45.63%,18.18,11.10,18.12,12.52,33.25,2.78,0,0.93,0.90,0.01,0.04,0,2.18
    I14897_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_19.67%,22.82,7.75,15.29,14.12,28.90,8.16,0,0,2.02,0,0,0.94,0
    I14898_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_9.81%,25.51,2.23,21.08,6.46,34.90,4.82,0.94,0,0.95,0.14,1.00,0.36,1.59
    I14903_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_51.78%,15.21,4.17,19.21,13.47,40.77,4.99,1.17,0.23,0.49,0.10,0,0,0.19
    I14904_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_60.46%,23.59,11.79,19.65,9.51,22.70,5.28,0,2.64,2.36,0,1.26,0.30,0.94
    very low coverage
    Code:
    I14848_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.17%,1.85,11.94,24.12,20.12,31.35,6.79,1.52,1.49,0,0.84,0,0,0
    I14849_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.22%,3.09,14.83,14.43,0,55.61,6.61,0,0,0,0,0,5.43,0
    I14854_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.35%,14.30,3.12,11.10,1.50,44.19,16.52,9.25,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I14855_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_3.39%,22.66,11.72,26.73,0,21.60,15.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.44
    I14899_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.63%,21.67,21.37,6.95,6.55,33.45,10.01,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I14900_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_0.93%,0,3.17,45.74,39.05,5.67,0,0,0,0,0,4.44,1.91,0
    I14901_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_5.73%,7.19,24.90,20.90,11.22,21.40,4.67,0,2.26,2.99,2.03,0,0,2.44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... the only reason I do the EU K13 is because you asked me.

    ... Testing my data: I know that I processed the Datasets in the same way as those that processed the SZ Dataset to produce the EU K13 coordinates, because I can replicate their results with my Dataset.

    I used the ENA .fastq for most of the SZ Dod. Globe 13, I only used the Dataset for 8 of the SZ samples.

    ... testing some of my EU K13 dataset results vs Vahaduo EU K13 (exactly the same, my processed Datasets are correct, obviously each calculator will give a different result).




    All the EU K13 Waldman 2022 divided by "OK" coverage, and 'very low' coverage:

    ... OK coverage
    Code:
    I13861_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_28.29%,12.99,6.72,19.54,13.05,39.70,5.71,1.38,0,0,0,0.79,0,0.12
    I13862_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_70.83%,15.74,18.25,16.62,10.77,25.75,5.79,4.35,0.17,1.29,0.57,0.35,0.34,0
    I13863_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_22.78%,11.55,4.48,21.79,9.91,39.93,7.34,0,1.35,0.05,0.63,1.08,1.85,0.04
    I13864_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_58.15%,14.81,2.66,23.98,8.73,40.12,6.57,1.25,0,0,0,0,0.73,1.14
    I13865_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_47.43%,17.88,4.47,20.21,7.77,38.18,7.80,0,1.56,0,0,0.56,1.31,0.27
    I13866_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_55.33%,20.08,14.61,17.13,8.85,29.51,2.19,3.09,1.55,1.02,1.07,0.74,0,0.16
    I13867_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_67.05%,16.78,7.86,18.13,8.62,35.15,8.26,0,1.29,0.85,1.12,0,0.96,0.97
    I13868_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_53.41%,19.16,16.65,19.12,8.91,25.89,3.36,1.20,1.65,0,1.09,0.56,1.91,0.51
    I13869_F-Eurogenes_K13_cov_52.00%,21.51,10.25,20.09,10.05,23.53,8.58,0,2.06,3.08,0,0,0.87,0
    I13870_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_31.52%,13.58,4.34,17.24,9.14,45.54,8.29,0.33,0,0,0,1.20,0.34,0
    I14736_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_59.21%,19.56,6.60,18.48,11.94,31.29,8.44,0,0.14,1.06,0.16,0,0.83,1.49
    I14737_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_33.67%,11.47,9.62,18.66,7.59,41.51,6.90,0,0,0.29,0,1.12,0,2.84
    I14738_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_71.04%,20.15,18.10,15.23,11.82,23.57,5.78,1.57,1.10,1.03,1.66,0,0,0
    I14739_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_28.47%,12.40,4.80,22.29,11.32,38.35,7.23,0,0.68,0,0,0.90,1.52,0.52
    I14740_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_71.84%,19.57,17.26,14.24,11.71,24.38,5.62,0.59,0.95,2.74,0.92,0,1.11,0.89
    I14741_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_10.95%,12.93,8.67,21.80,3.99,45.21,3.90,1.15,1.32,0.17,0,0.88,0,0
    I14846_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_5.18%,12.51,0,23.57,12.53,36.95,8.84,1.44,2.30,0,0,0,0,1.86
    I14847_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_73.06%,21.60,14.38,17.23,9.46,27.99,3.47,1.45,1.94,0,0.38,0.50,0.09,1.51
    I14850_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_49.02%,20.19,18.50,14.35,11.37,29.36,2.14,0,0,1.76,0,0.36,1.28,0.69
    I14851_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_38.41%,14.96,5.43,18.68,11.97,38.70,6.66,0,0.94,0,1.30,0.06,0.87,0.42
    I14852_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_22.05%,19.71,3.72,19.29,11.88,34.34,9.97,0,0.48,0,0.39,0.22,0,0
    I14853_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_45.63%,18.18,11.10,18.12,12.52,33.25,2.78,0,0.93,0.90,0.01,0.04,0,2.18
    I14897_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_19.67%,22.82,7.75,15.29,14.12,28.90,8.16,0,0,2.02,0,0,0.94,0
    I14898_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_9.81%,25.51,2.23,21.08,6.46,34.90,4.82,0.94,0,0.95,0.14,1.00,0.36,1.59
    I14903_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_51.78%,15.21,4.17,19.21,13.47,40.77,4.99,1.17,0.23,0.49,0.10,0,0,0.19
    I14904_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_60.46%,23.59,11.79,19.65,9.51,22.70,5.28,0,2.64,2.36,0,1.26,0.30,0.94
    very low coverage
    Code:
    I14848_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.17%,1.85,11.94,24.12,20.12,31.35,6.79,1.52,1.49,0,0.84,0,0,0
    I14849_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.22%,3.09,14.83,14.43,0,55.61,6.61,0,0,0,0,0,5.43,0
    I14854_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.35%,14.30,3.12,11.10,1.50,44.19,16.52,9.25,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I14855_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_3.39%,22.66,11.72,26.73,0,21.60,15.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.44
    I14899_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.63%,21.67,21.37,6.95,6.55,33.45,10.01,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I14900_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_0.93%,0,3.17,45.74,39.05,5.67,0,0,0,0,0,4.44,1.91,0
    I14901_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_5.73%,7.19,24.90,20.90,11.22,21.40,4.67,0,2.26,2.99,2.03,0,0,2.44

    thanks salento great work
    interesting

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    fyi … F stands for ‘female’ and M for ‘male’ :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^That's all true, but to the best of my recollection there were already well-established Jewish communities in some German cities by the 9th century.

    Now, whether their numbers were increased by migration from Southern Italy and Sicily hundreds of years later I don't know. I do know many of the Jews expelled by Spaniards fled to Ottoman domains where they were treated better.

    I think that might have been a better bet for them than Germany, where beginning at the time of the First Crusade in 1096, they had already been decimated by pogroms, pogroms which continued in successive centuries.

    Regardless, it does seem to be rather a consensus among Jewish researchers that, as you say, the route was though Italy, perhaps picking up ancestry along the way.
    indeed
    the ottomans treat them much better
    i am planning a trip to spain
    i want to see the jewish quarters in toledo
    after all the parllell branch (e-s20057) to mine are all descendnet of sefhardi or portuguase jews( beside 1 saudi)
    so i could say there is high chances that they lived there in those quarters before the explusion
    i also score sefhardi autosomally in ftdna my origins 3.0 ( i am 1/4 bulgarian sefhardi geneologically)
    so it will be exciting to be in spain maybe i will also go to portugal will see about that

    p.s
    afcorse it all depende on the covid situation

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    indeed
    the ottomans treat them much better
    i am planning a trip to spain
    i want to see the jewish quarters in toledo
    after all the parllell branch (e-s20057) to mine are all descendnet of sefhardi or portuguase jews( beside 1 saudi)
    so i could say there is high chances that they lived there in those quarters before the explusion
    i also score sefhardi autosomally in ftdna my origins 3.0 ( i am 1/4 bulgarian sefhardi geneologically)
    so it will be exciting to be in spain maybe i will also go to portugal will see about that

    p.s
    afcorse it all depende on the covid situation
    I recommend a visit to Toledo. Spend a whole day in the city visiting everything on foot walking through the medieval alleys (and seeing, of course, the cathedral, the synagogue, the Mosque, etc, etc). I went from Madrid to Toledo by bus, but you can also do it by train. A great ride. It is only 70 km from Madrid. Toledo's Damasquinado de Oro is an attraction in itself. I loved seeing personally the handmade process of jewelry making

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    I recommend a visit to Toledo. Spend a whole day in the city visiting everything on foot walking through the medieval alleys (and seeing, of course, the cathedral, the synagogue, the Mosque, etc, etc). I went from Madrid to Toledo by bus, but you can also do it by train. A great ride. It is only 70 km from Madrid. Toledo's Damasquinado de Oro is an attraction in itself. I loved seeing personally the handmade process of jewelry making
    Thanks durate
    For your tips
    Sounds very nice

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    I second that recommendation.

    Segovia is also beautiful (Disney stole their design for their castle from it, I think.), and has its own Jewish Quarter.

    The view from the top over the plains is extraordinary.


    You can also see the still used Roman aqueduct:


    The oldest one is in Barcelona, which is a fabulous city, dating to the 9th century, and the one in Girona is the best preserved.

    Girona:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I second that recommendation.
    Segovia is also beautiful (Disney stole their design for their castle from it, I think.), and has its own Jewish Quarter.
    The view from the top over the plains is extraordinary.

    You can also see the still used Roman aqueduct:

    The oldest one is in Barcelona, which is a fabulous city, dating to the 9th century, and the one in Girona is the best preserved.
    Girona:
    Thanks angela ,
    Looks very beautiful
    Very very nice pictures
    we suppose to land in madrid
    So toledo is close and maybe i could convince my brother( who is much less interested in history than me) to go also to segovia but barcelona is too far
    Thanks for your advice
    It is important to here from people who were
    In those places

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Thanks angela ,
    Looks very beautiful
    Very very nice pictures
    we suppose to land in madrid
    So toledo is close and maybe i could convince my brother( who is much less interested in history than me) to go also to segovia but barcelona is too far
    Thanks for your advice
    It is important to here from people who were
    In those places
    Nothing to do with Judaism, but El Escorial, the retreat of the Emperor Charles V, is a short train ride from Madrid, and is an extraordinary thing to see; difficult to imagine building such a monstrosity basically just for himself. I've always been of the opinion that in his elderly years some of his mother's mental health issues manifested themselves in him(Juana the mad).

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    bam files are out
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...475?show=reads
    P.s
    By the way I14847 e1b1b1b2(× e1b1b1b2b)
    Individual
    Was checked by principe my friend who was kind enough
    I14847 turn to belong to e-y6923 branch
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y6923/
    ( bummer that means we share
    Common ancestor only at the e-m34 level 15,000 years ago far)
    this is the location of e-y6923 clade under e-m34 in the tree

    https://i.imgur.com/3PEN0DW.jpg

    Last edited by kingjohn; 25-06-22 at 07:41.

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    Ashkenazim and their astounding autosomal resemblance to South Italians/Sicilians/Peloponnesian Greeks and Greek Islanders has been largely ignored by "scientists" for decades.

    In nearly all studies by the same old clique, Tuscany/Northern Italy and Sardinia were used as Greco Roman reference populations on DNA studies of Ashkenazim.
    South Italian and Sicilian samples were obviously and blatantly ignored over and over.

    One might ask if "scientists" were looking for the actual roots of Ashkenazim wouldn't they be highly interested with Greco Roman European populations that light up on autosomal DNA closer to Ashkenazim than all other Jewish ethnic groups?

    Avshalom Zoosman-Diskin's study on this all the way back in 2010 was one of the few that delved into this subject.

    This new study ignores the actual history of Greco Roman Jews by including the stale "half Northern Italian/half Lebanese" modeling that they call "plausible."

    Jews lived in southern Italian peninsula/Sicily and the Greek Islands since the times of Magna Graecia.
    A "scientist" can not just ignore the history of these Jewish communities in their work.
    Quite a coincidence that Ashkenazim ancestors were living in Calarbia for likely 2300 years and at least 1600, and Ashkenazim just happen to massively overlap with them on an Autosomal level...


    Maybe we need to start asking if "South Italians and Sicilians" are "plausibly" half Lebanese and half Northern Italian and ignore their known history?

    Can we also change the maps and brand South Italy/Sicily as part of the new-founded "Northern Levant?"

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    You have until 10 AM to get rid of that avatar or you're banned.

    So everyone is clear, violent images will not be tolerated.

  22. #47
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    "You have until 10 AM to get rid of that avatar or you're banned.

    So everyone is clear, violent images will not be tolerated. "

    My image is that of my range gun that I use for sports shooting.

    It's called the Hellpup and made in Poland.
    I'm NOT posting a violent image at all.
    I'm an NRA range instructor and retired law federal law enforcement.

    Wouldn't it have been more fair and reasonable to ask me about my avatar photo before jumping to such a wild conclusion?
    Seems like bullying and outlandish behavior on your part.
    Are you from NYC or some hard left blue city that has zero respect for the 2nd amendment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5150 View Post
    Ashkenazim and their astounding autosomal resemblance to South Italians/Sicilians/Peloponnesian Greeks and Greek Islanders has been largely ignored by "scientists" for decades.

    In nearly all studies by the same old clique, Tuscany/Northern Italy and Sardinia were used as Greco Roman reference populations on DNA studies of Ashkenazim.
    South Italian and Sicilian samples were obviously and blatantly ignored over and over.

    One might ask if "scientists" were looking for the actual roots of Ashkenazim wouldn't they be highly interested with Greco Roman European populations that light up on autosomal DNA closer to Ashkenazim than all other Jewish ethnic groups?

    Avshalom Zoosman-Diskin's study on this all the way back in 2010 was one of the few that delved into this subject.

    This new study ignores the actual history of Greco Roman Jews by including the stale "half Northern Italian/half Lebanese" modeling that they call "plausible."

    Jews lived in southern Italian peninsula/Sicily and the Greek Islands since the times of Magna Graecia.
    A "scientist" can not just ignore the history of these Jewish communities in their work.
    Quite a coincidence that Ashkenazim ancestors were living in Calarbia for likely 2300 years and at least 1600, and Ashkenazim just happen to massively overlap with them on an Autosomal level...


    Maybe we need to start asking if "South Italians and Sicilians" are "plausibly" half Lebanese and half Northern Italian and ignore their known history?

    Can we also change the maps and brand South Italy/Sicily as part of the new-founded "Northern Levant?"
    I wonder what is this obsession some Americans have with southern Italians: virtually every study models them as a mixture of caucasus-related ancestry, steppe and EEF, that is extremely similar to groups that lived in Europe since the BA at least, whereas ashkenazi are modelled as a tripartite mixture of southern European, northern European and Levantine; neither southern Italians and Sicilians are half nothern Italian an half Lebanese nor are Ashkenazi a sort of group of Calabrians converted to Judaism. Even the last study found that Ashkenazi could be modelled as most with 66% southern Italian-like admixture and the rest is Lebanese AND Russian-like admixture, thus there is not a "massively autosomal overlap", since 1/3 of difference is not trivial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I wonder what is this obsession some Americans have with southern Italians: virtually every study models them as a mixture of caucasus-related ancestry, steppe and EEF, that is extremely similar to groups that lived in Europe since the BA at least, whereas ashkenazi are modelled as a tripartite mixture of southern European, northern European and Levantine; neither southern Italians and Sicilians are half nothern Italian an half Lebanese nor are Ashkenazi a sort of group of Calabrians converted to Judaism. Even the last study found that Ashkenazi could be modelled as most with 66% southern Italian-like admixture and the rest is Lebanese AND Russian-like admixture, thus there is not a "massively autosomal overlap", since 1/3 of difference is not trivial.
    The answer is yes. It is somewhat an obsession with Southern Italians but it also points to something much deeper in certain segments of American Nordicist/Aryan type movements; a strong anti Jewish sentiment.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I wonder what is this obsession some Americans have with southern Italians: virtually every study models them as a mixture of caucasus-related ancestry, steppe and EEF, that is extremely similar to groups that lived in Europe since the BA at least, whereas ashkenazi are modelled as a tripartite mixture of southern European, northern European and Levantine; neither southern Italians and Sicilians are half northern Italian an half Lebanese nor are Ashkenazi a sort of group of Calabrians converted to Judaism. Even the last study found that Ashkenazi could be modelled as most with 66% southern Italian-like admixture and the rest is Lebanese AND Russian-like admixture, thus there is not a "massively autosomal overlap", since 1/3 of difference is not trivial.
    He was already banned for having an avatar as a gun and his post expunged, and you thought it was a good idea to republish it?

    Why? Why dignify that kind of stupidity with a response? You just give their views more airtime.

    Ignore them and they go away. No need to point out the stupidity of their reasoning, if one can use that word for it: it's crystal clear, and we've done it many times.

    It's your choice, of course. Fwiw, I agree with Palermo: it has a lot to do with antisemitism, when it isn't because of personal family and mental health issues. Unfortunately, there's an epidemic of mental health issues among younger people. It's what happens when "the center doesn't hold".

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