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Thread: Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews. Preprint.

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    Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews. Preprint.

    Abstract
    We report genome-wide data for 33 Ashkenazi Jews (AJ), dated to the 14th century, following a salvage excavation at the medieval Jewish cemetery of Erfurt, Germany. The Erfurt individuals are genetically similar to modern AJ and have substantial Southern European ancestry, but they show more variability in Eastern European-related ancestry than modern AJ. A third of the Erfurt individuals carried the same nearly-AJ-specific mitochondrial haplogroup and eight carried pathogenic variants known to affect AJ today. These observations, together with high levels of runs of homozygosity, suggest that the Erfurt community had already experienced the major reduction in size that affected modern AJ. However, the Erfurt bottleneck was more severe, implying substructure in medieval AJ. Together, our results suggest that the AJ founder event and the acquisition of the main sources of ancestry pre-dated the 14th century and highlight late medieval genetic heterogeneity no longer present in modern AJ.




    Discussion


    We have presented the first genome-wide data from historical AJ individuals. We used the data to refine the picture of early AJ origins. The ancestry of EAJ was closely related to that of modern AJ, as evidenced by the PCA, ADMIXTURE, and qpWave analyses, suggesting overall genetic continuity of AJ over the past ≈700 years. However, EAJ individuals had more variable ancestry than MAJ and were possibly stratified by the presence of a minor Eastern European ancestry component. Multiple lines of evidence suggest that the EAJ population had already experienced a “bottleneck” shared with MAJ: the high frequency of Ashkenazi founder mtDNA haplogroups; and the presence of Ashkenazi-specific pathogenic variants, other AJ-enriched alleles, and long runs of homozygosity. Carriers of the K1a1b1a mtDNA founder haplogroup seem to have descended from an even smaller set of founders. In agreement with previous studies [19, 23, 25], we date the onset of the expansion in AJ population size to about 20-25 generations ago (see additional discussion in SI 2). Our ancient DNA data allowed us to identify patterns in the history of AJ that would not have been otherwise detectable from modern genetic variation. Specifically, our genetic results suggest that the AJ population was structured during the Middle Ages. Within Erfurt, one group of individuals had an enrichment of Eastern European-related ancestry (Figure 1 and Figure 2B), while the other had ancestry very close to that of MAJ of Western European origin and modern Sephardi Jews (Figure 1 and Figure S10). The two groups also had significantly different levels of enamel δ18O (Figure 2C). Medieval AJ may have been structured even beyond Erfurt, based on our inferred demographic model (Figure 3E). In contrast, present-day AJ is a remarkably homogeneous population [17, 23, 33]. This suggests that even though the available under aCC-BY-NC 4.0 International license.was not certified by peer review) is the author/funder, who has granted bioRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity. It is made bioRxiv preprint doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.05.13.491805; this version posted May 16, 2022. The copyright holder for this preprint (which18 overall sources of ancestry remained very similar between medieval and modern AJ, endogamy and within-AJ mixture since medieval times have contributed to the homogenization of the AJ gene pool. We found that a plausible model for the ancestral sources of EAJ (Figure 2A) include groups related to people in South-Italy (about 70%, who themselves plausibly might harbor Middle East-related ancestry), the Middle East (about 15%), and Eastern Europe (about 15%). Models with North-Italians as a source were also plausible, with an ancestry proportion of about 45% to each of North-Italians and Middle Easterners. The ancestry proportion estimates using North-Italians are closer to previous estimates using modern SNP and sequencing data [19, 35], but a North-Italian source was less favored by qpAdm (Table S7). While these results could be consistent with a model where the Middle Eastern ancestry in AJ has not been as large as previously thought, complicating the picture are (i) our inability to identify a satisfactory model for modern AJ; (ii) the historically variable levels of Middle Eastern ancestry in Italy [49, 88-90] (SI 2); and (iii) the possible problems when modeling an ancient population with modern sources using qpAdm [50] (although see our robustness tests in Table S7). Therefore, the direct contribution of ME sources to AJ ancestry may be higher than estimated (SI 2). Either way, the substantial Southern European ancestry we inferred adds weight to the evidence that early AJ descended, at least partly, from Italian Jews (SI 2). The estimate of about 15% Eastern European-related ancestry is consistent with a previous study [35]. The identification of this source as Eastern European relies on the f4 results (figs. S13, S14) and the qpAdm models (Table S7); however, this ancestry might derive from a broad area across Central or Eastern Europe, which may accord with recorded migration into Erfurt from Bohemia, Moravia, and Silesia (SI 1). For an additional discussion on the historical interpretation of these results, see SI 2. As with other ancient DNA studies, our historical inferences are based on a single site in time and space. This implies that our data may not be representative of the full genetic diversity of early AJ, as we have indeed inferred (Figure 3E). However, even for a single site, our sample size was relatively large (>30), and we were able to capture substructure not present in MAJ. Another limitation is the reliance of our demographic models on a relatively small number of runs of homozygosity, which are difficult to infer from pseudo-haploid data. In particular, several models were disqualified due to mismatch with observed counts of short ROH or IBD segments, which are difficult to accurately call (Figure 3D; Figure S25). Our inferred demographic model (Figure 3E) should not be interpreted as a complete and precise demographic reconstruction; rather, it should be viewed as a simplified model (perhaps one among many) that captures the main features of the observed genetic data. Similarly, our models for the ancestry of EAJ (Figure 2A) may not be the only plausible models, and the ancestral sources we inferred should be interpreted as proxies, distant in time and space, of the true ancestral population
    [QUOTE]


    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...rticle-metrics

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    Their Slavic admixture is perhaps roughly from the same region as Erfurt, not from further East:




    ^^^
    Let's remind about the genetics of 14th century inhabitants of Krakauer Berg:


    Code:
    14th_century_DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg(n=3),0.1320347,0.1272797,0.077561,0.06783,0.0444187,0.0252863,0.006267,0.0107687,0.002182,-0.020714,-0.0039513,-0.009242,0.016006,0.0173403,-0.007917,0.0017677,0.0068233,-0.0025337,0.0055307,0.0007917,-0.0053657,-0.0007007,0.0023007,-0.0088363,-0.0013573

    North Europe PCA: https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope




    ^^^
    Average result of three of Krakauer Berg individuals dated to the 14th century:



    Code:
    14th_century_DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg_KRA004,0.134311,0.126941,0.089,0.07752,0.050779,0.029284,0.00094,0.00923,0.004909,-0.016401,0.001949,-0.008842,0.020664,0.019818,-0.006515,0.005701,0.00665,0.0019,0.00817,0.007128,-0.010731,-0.000989,0.003451,-0.014942,-0.003712
    14th_century_DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg_KRA008,0.132035,0.129988,0.078064,0.066215,0.037853,0.018965,0.005405,0.009923,0.001432,-0.021868,-0.006496,-0.008243,0.015758,0.011147,-0.011536,0.009944,0.020861,-0.00228,0.002514,0.003126,-0.004617,0.000124,0.000493,-0.005663,0.001676
    14th_century_DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg_KRA010,0.129758,0.12491,0.065619,0.059755,0.044624,0.02761,0.012456,0.013153,0.000205,-0.023873,-0.007307,-0.010641,0.011596,0.021056,-0.0057,-0.010342,-0.007041,-0.007221,0.005908,-0.007879,-0.000749,-0.001237,0.002958,-0.005904,-0.002036
    Of course older individuals were also Slavic:

    Code:
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA001,0.129758,0.122879,0.07203,0.068476,0.044316,0.025937,0.012221,0.013615,-0.005727,-0.024602,-0.002761,-0.007943,0.011447,0.018441,-0.014251,0.011403,0.021383,-0.005954,0.003645,0.002126,0.000873,-0.009398,0.009244,-0.005784,-0.000479
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002,0.125205,0.129988,0.073539,0.065246,0.034468,0.022311,0.00846,0.013615,-0.001636,-0.021868,-0.003085,-0.013638,0.012339,0.012248,-0.000271,0.011005,0.004303,-0.004181,0.002891,0.001876,-0.00549,-0.007543,0.002095,-0.000843,-0.005269
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA003,0.127482,0.123895,0.077687,0.065246,0.044624,0.010598,0.01081,0.017307,0.00225,-0.022233,-0.001137,-0.007943,0.017542,0.008808,-0.002172,0.023336,0.019427,0.00266,0.001131,0.006503,-0.006863,-0.004081,0.007148,0.006627,-0.000239
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA005,0.127482,0.13405,0.069013,0.068799,0.049548,0.021753,0.009635,0.015461,-0.006545,-0.021139,-0.004709,-0.009442,0.010406,0.02257,-0.006515,-0.004508,0.009909,-0.001774,0.006411,0.006753,-0.008235,-0.002968,0.006655,-0.00482,0.000239
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006,0.129758,0.120848,0.065242,0.061047,0.043085,0.022869,0.00564,0.012923,-0.001432,-0.020228,-0.000487,-0.010041,0.013379,0.024772,-0.011808,-0.012198,-0.00339,-0.004814,-0.000503,-0.004752,0.001248,0.000247,0.007148,-0.010845,0.002395
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA007,0.125205,0.131003,0.082212,0.067184,0.047701,0.02761,0.00846,0.011538,-0.000205,-0.035718,0.001949,-0.006594,0.01888,0.02202,-0.009365,-0.01485,-0.002868,0.000887,-0.003017,0.005503,0.000749,0.000989,0.00037,-0.003976,0.007664
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009,0.129758,0.129988,0.064111,0.064923,0.039392,0.021196,0.00893,0.011307,0.000205,-0.028793,-0.003085,-0.009891,0.017988,0.023258,-0.010722,0.006629,0.007693,0.00114,0.004651,0.00988,-0.01123,0.000495,0.003944,-0.008796,-0.001197
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA011,0.130897,0.132019,0.082212,0.069768,0.050163,0.026216,0.012926,0.009923,0.002454,-0.019135,-0.002111,-0.008692,0.014717,0.023533,-0.012486,-0.011005,-0.004172,0.002154,0.006034,0.006003,-0.006738,-0.01014,0.007395,-0.004217,0.003592
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    Oops, seems I missed the thread was already started, and I double posted it.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Seems the southern European admixture is South Italian like, as some speculated after the Rome papers and the implied Jewish communities within Rome falling on the East-Med cline.

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    I suppose that many of the Slavs living in this region were still Pagan or "Crypto-Pagan" even as late as the 14th century. And it was easier to convert to Judaism a Pagan or a "Crypto-Pagan", than a staunch Christian (which the Germans were). Mixing between Pagans and Jews was more likely than between Christians and Jews. Especially that both groups were persecuted by Christians (Germans in this case).

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    Pagans did not accuse the Jews of killing their Christ - so there was no prejudice (unless the Jews were prejudiced against Pagans?).

    And as you know the last Pagan Slavs were in Germany. Poland became Christian much earlier than Sorbs & other Slavs in Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Pagans did not accuse the Jews of killing their Christ - so there was no prejudice (unless the Jews were prejudiced against Pagans?).

    And as you know the last Pagan Slavs were in Germany. Poland became Christian much earlier than Sorbs & other Slavs in Germany.
    I am not sure if this is relevant though. But may be who knows.
    As for Poland and Christendom, I believe your statement is correct. Except for what is today Northern Poland which from what I know was some of the last parts of Europe to give up the Pagan religion/s under the Teutonic Order.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Last Slavic Pagans lost independence ca. year 1200, but obviously they continued as "Crypto-Pagans" and resisted Christianization much longer (just like Jews in Spain remained "Crypto-Jews"):



    ^^^ I recommend book "The Northern Crusades" (2nd Edition) by Eric Christiansen. The 1st Edition is available for free online, here:

    https://archive.org/details/northern...ge/n3/mode/2up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Except for what is today Northern Poland which from what I know was some of the last parts of Europe to give up the Pagan religion/s under the Teutonic Order.
    Only North-Eastern Poland, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmia...an_Voivodeship

    North-Central Poland (Pomerelia) and North-Western Poland were Christianized by Polish rulers already in the 900s.

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    Yep. Quite a fascinating region which I have spent some time reading on. Thanks for the free book :)

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    i14847 is e1b1b1b2(xe1b1b1b2b) nice

    so he was e-pf1962 derived negetive for e-v1515
    but he might belong to any of those ashkenazi branches :

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PF2025/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y14891/
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

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    Being a Christian you recognize that Jesus is the son of God.

    Converting to Judaism by a Christian would be a step backwards in the sense that you need to renounce (to betray) Jesus. For a Pagan (or a Crypto-Pagan Slav, who had been forcibly Christianized by crusaders, but is not a sincere Christian believer) such a dilemma does not exist.

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    mtdna and y haplogroups in this study

    i13861- female- k1a1b1a

    i13862- male- T1a1a/ k1a1b1a

    i3863- female- k1a9

    i3864- male - h3p / j2a1a1a2b2 -

    i13865- male -L2a1I2a / R1b1a1b1b

    i13866-male - k1a1b1a / j1a

    i13867- female- k1a1b1a

    i13868- male- H1as2 / R1b1a1b1a1a2b3a

    i13869-female- h11b1

    i13870- male - k1a1b1a / j2a1a1a2b2a

    i14736- female -k1a1b1a

    i14737-female -N1b1b1

    i14738- female- u3a1a

    i14739- female - H5c2

    I14740- female- N9a3

    i14741- female- k1a1b1a

    i14846- male- k1a1b1a / j(x j2b)

    i14847- male - h1aj1a / E1b1b1b2(x e1b1b1b2b)

    i14848- male ( second degree relative of i14855 )- k1a9

    i14849- female- h1c1

    i14850-female - ( a mother of i14853 and i14898 )- u1b1

    i14851- female-k1a1b1a

    i14852-female-h6a1a1a

    i14853 - male -( a son of i14850 and brother of i14898) -u1b1 / R1b1a1b1b

    i14854- female -( second degree relative of i14855)- u5a1a2a

    i14855-male-(second degree relative of i14854) u5a1a2a

    i14897- female-j1c1

    i14898-female ( a daughter of i14850) -u1b1

    i14899-male - k1a1b1a

    i14900-male -u5a2b2a

    i14901-female-hv1b2

    i14903-female-k1a1b1a

    i14904-male-( father of i13869) t1a1b / R1b1a1b1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    mtdna and y haplogroups in this study

    i13861- female- k1a1b1a

    i13862- male- T1a1a/ k1a1b1a

    i3863- female- k1a9

    i3864- male - h3p / j2a1a1a2b2 -

    i13865- male -L2a1I2a / R1b1a1b1b

    i13866-male - k1a1b1a / j1a

    i13867- female- k1a1b1a

    i13868- male- H1as2 / R1b1a1b1a1a2b3a

    i13869-female- h11b1

    i13870- male - k1a1b1a / j2a1a1a2b2a

    i14736- female -k1a1b1a

    i14737-female -N1b1b1

    i14738- female- u3a1a

    i14739- female - H5c2

    I14740- female- N9a3

    i14741- female- k1a1b1a

    i14846- male- k1a1b1a / j(x j2b)

    i14847- male - h1aj1a / E1b1b1b2(x e1b1b1b2b)

    i14848- male ( second degree relative of i14855 )- k1a9

    i14849- female- h1c1

    i14850-female - ( a mother of i14853 and i14898 )- u1b1

    i14851- female-k1a1b1a

    i14852-female-h6a1a1a

    i14853 - male -( a son of i14850 and brother of i14898) -u1b1 / R1b1a1b1b

    i14854- female -( second degree relative of i14855)- u5a1a2a

    i14855-male-(second degree relative of i14854) u5a1a2a

    i14897- female-j1c1

    i14898-female ( a daughter of i14850) -u1b1

    i14899-male - k1a1b1a

    i14900-male -u5a2b2a

    i14901-female-hv1b2

    i14903-female-k1a1b1a

    i14904-male-( father of i13869) t1a1b / R1b1a1b1b
    Why so many males with no reported Y-DNA ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Why so many males with no reported Y-DNA ???


    table s2:

    yes i know about the males you are talking about what can i do
    that is what written
    next to them in the table :

    n/a ( too few SNPs)

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    Would be quite convincing if the J2b's are the Kohanim branch similar to the Roman paper J2b that had an East Med shift.
    Would help shed light where that particular Kohanim branch got incorporated.

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    Lots of R1b males, what's up with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    mtdna and y haplogroups in this study

    i13861- female- k1a1b1a

    i13862- male- T1a1a/ k1a1b1a

    i3863- female- k1a9

    i3864- male - h3p / j2a1a1a2b2 -

    i13865- male -L2a1I2a / R1b1a1b1b

    i13866-male - k1a1b1a / j1a

    i13867- female- k1a1b1a

    i13868- male- H1as2 / R1b1a1b1a1a2b3a

    i13869-female- h11b1

    i13870- male - k1a1b1a / j2a1a1a2b2a

    i14736- female -k1a1b1a

    i14737-female -N1b1b1

    i14738- female- u3a1a

    i14739- female - H5c2

    I14740- female- N9a3

    i14741- female- k1a1b1a

    i14846- male- k1a1b1a / j(x j2b)

    i14847- male - h1aj1a / E1b1b1b2(x e1b1b1b2b)

    i14848- male ( second degree relative of i14855 )- k1a9

    i14849- female- h1c1

    i14850-female - ( a mother of i14853 and i14898 )- u1b1

    i14851- female-k1a1b1a

    i14852-female-h6a1a1a

    i14853 - male -( a son of i14850 and brother of i14898) -u1b1 / R1b1a1b1b

    i14854- female -( second degree relative of i14855)- u5a1a2a

    i14855-male-(second degree relative of i14854) u5a1a2a

    i14897- female-j1c1

    i14898-female ( a daughter of i14850) -u1b1

    i14899-male - k1a1b1a

    i14900-male -u5a2b2a

    i14901-female-hv1b2

    i14903-female-k1a1b1a

    i14904-male-( father of i13869) t1a1b / R1b1a1b1b

    there is no K1a1b1a ydna that I can find on the net ..............have you placed this backwards?

    i13862- male- T1a1a/ k1a1b1a
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  19. #19
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    there is no K1a1b1a ydna that I can find on the net ..............have you placed this backwards?
    i13862- male- T1a1a/ k1a1b1a

    yes,
    i was confused with him
    i put the mtdna first and the y dna second in all the rest of them

    this dude is indeed y dna T

  20. #20
    Regular Member firetown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Lots of R1b males, what's up with that?
    I have not vetted it yet, but this comment on my blog comes to mind:
    According to the website https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results,extensive research has been done on the R1 haplogroup and it’s subclades. The Y haplogroup R1b (M343) appeared around 12,000 years ago in the Middle East, most likely somewhere in the Levant (today Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan) the same location from which the Sumerians and ancient HEBREWS and Jewish nation originated. These ancient forefathers were among those who developed farming in the area (but many other men of different haplogroups were also taking part.
    Than 8000 BCE R1b-M269 (old R1b1a2) the following subgroup of R1b originates most likely in East Europe or West Asia around (6500-8500 years with confidence). In its M269* (M269+ L23-) form, it is found rarely around the Mediterranean, Anatolia, the Balkans. Amongst this class is a cluster of Jewish R1b-M269*. “Ht35” which is short for Haplotype 35, the original academic label for Eastern European and Asian R1b subgroups. So the first mention of a jewish connection to the R1b subgroups originates 8500 BCE,
    https://www.rhesusnegative.net/stayn...#comment-26149

  21. #21
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Lots of R1b males, what's up with that?
    Seems all 3 R1b samples are z2103.
    Mb missed one R1b-L4.
    Courtesy of Pylsteen from the other forum.

  22. #22
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    here are there g25 values posted by erikl86 from anthrogenica
    and done by davidski

    Erfurt_ME:I13861,0.103579,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.051357,0.006463,-0.017012,0.008695,-0.000462,0.006954,0.017677,0.011042,-0.006894,0.002379,-0.013762,-0.005836,0.009414,0.008345,-0.001014,-0.005154,0.002251,-0.005989,0.004451,0.001602,-0.00253,0.002515
    Erfurt_ME_o:I13863,0.093335,0.132019,-0.020742,-0.064277,0.011079,-0.016455,-0.00423,-0.001846,0.01268,0.024602,0.007632,-0.003447,0.005203,-0.004542,-0.007465,-0.003713,-0.003129,-0.002914,-0.004902,-0.005378,-0.006239,-0.014838,-0.003574,-0.001687,-0.006586
    Erfurt_ME:I13864,0.094473,0.151314,-0.019233,-0.052972,0.010463,-0.014502,-0.00188,-0.001615,0.018612,0.024784,0.005684,-3e-04,0.003271,0.003853,0.002714,0.001193,-0.01369,0.003421,0.003645,-0.012881,0.00262,0.002597,-0.002711,0.006266,-0.003113
    Erfurt_ME:I13865,0.092197,0.142174,-0.014331,-0.059755,0.020619,-0.026774,-0.00611,-0.000923,0.01268,0.02041,0.00406,-0.000599,0.00446,0.003441,0.002036,-0.007027,-0.011474,0.004307,0.000126,-0.012506,-0.002745,-0.003957,0.008134,-0.005422,-0.003832
    Erfurt_ME_o:I13870,0.094473,0.148267,-0.01697,-0.057494,0.008001,-0.024542,-0.00282,-0.000692,0.019839,0.008018,0.005034,0.004946,0.016 204,-0.004679,-0.002036,0.007027,0.006389,-0.000887,-0.004902,-0.014882,-0.00025,0.002102,-0.008258,0.006989,0.003353
    Erfurt_ME:I14737,0.08992,0.147252,-0.017725,-0.048773,0.008617,-0.028726,-0.00517,0.001385,0.013908,0.020228,0.00341,-0.001649,0.008176,0.007844,-0.012215,-0.0179,-0.017732,-0.002407,-0.000754,0.006878,-0.000873,-0.001113,0.005916,-0.002048,0.003832
    Erfurt_ME:I14739,0.08992,0.144205,-0.018102,-0.063631,0.01508,-0.03012,0.00235,-0.006923,0.007567,0.01713,0.001624,0.001349,0.0099 6,-0.001927,-0.002172,-0.00305,-0.008214,0.000887,-0.01169,0.001251,0.000998,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.008194,-0.000838
    Erfurt_ME:I14741,0.101303,0.145221,-0.017348,-0.053941,0.011387,-0.020638,0.00752,0.020999,0.033951,0.021504,0.0038 97,0.007194,0.005203,-0.00289,-0.007193,0.001458,0.014081,0.002154,-0.005908,0.003377,-0.009733,0.005812,-0.002465,0.025305,-0.009221
    Erfurt_ME:I14851,0.097888,0.141159,-0.015839,-0.056848,0.011079,-0.01255,-0.00235,-0.009923,0.001841,0.016037,0.013153,0,0.006838,0.0 03716,-0.005429,-0.000265,-0.013299,-0.006588,-0.004525,-0.002001,-0.004617,-0.004328,-0.003204,-0.004458,0.002275
    Erfurt_ME:I14852,0.103579,0.148267,-0.016593,-0.062662,0.005232,-0.022032,-0.001175,-0.018461,0.010431,0.022597,-0.001624,0.003747,0.001784,0.001789,-0.008686,0.002121,0.002477,0.004054,-0.009679,-0.004752,-0.00262,-0.018548,0.006779,0.012652,0.007185
    Erfurt_ME:I14903,0.103579,0.146236,-0.021496,-0.051034,0.004001,-0.015897,0.000235,-0.003692,0.005318,0.024966,0.002111,-0.009292,-0.000595,-0.002752,-0.010179,0.000398,-0.002217,0.003674,-0.002388,0.002876,-0.00549,-0.00371,0.002711,0.000843,0.000958
    Erfurt_ME_o:I13867,0.093335,0.13405,-0.002263,-0.049096,0.014772,-0.018686,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.011249,0.016948,0.008119,-0.001649,0.006987,0.000275,-0.003936,0.001193,0.001565,-0.000887,-0.004777,0.001626,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.007641,0.007953,0.000958
    Erfurt_ME_o:I14736,0.092197,0.139128,0.001131,-0.047804,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00141,0.001846,0.00859,0.018041,0.00568 4,0.002398,0.010555,-0.00
    0138,0.006922,0.008884,0.01708,0.004181,0,-0.004252,-0.000499,0.004451,-0.00037,-0.002048,-0.008263


    Erfurt_EU:I13862,0.110408,0.122879,0.00264,-0.010982,0.010771,-0.005578,0.00235,0.002769,0.00859,0.009294,0.00682 ,-0.003147,-0.003419,0.010046,-0.011943,-0.008486,-0.004955,0.00038,-0.00088,-0.006003,-0.007986,-0.000866,0.008751,-0.002651,-0.003233
    Erfurt_EU:I13866,0.106994,0.118817,0.006034,-0.014212,0.016311,-0.010319,-0.00282,0.004615,0.001636,0.014943,-0.006333,-0.000899,0.003717,0.00523,-0.012758,-0.003713,0.008996,0.003927,-0.003142,0.003877,-0.007362,-0.001607,0.001109,0.006386,-0.002754
    Erfurt_EU:I13868,0.105855,0.127957,0.012822,-0.018088,0.024312,-0.002231,-0.00188,0.000231,0.01268,0.007289,0.002111,0.00719 4,0.005649,0.010184,-0.001357,-0.004375,0.009388,-0.000507,-0.004022,0.008254,-0.001497,-0.004328,0.0053,-0.003856,0.000599
    Erfurt_EU:I14738,0.112685,0.126941,0.012822,-0.013889,0.01508,-0.002789,-0.00188,0.002077,0.001227,0.008201,-0.006333,-0.002847,0.006541,0.007294,-0.00475,0.001061,0.006128,-0.000127,0.000126,-0.004252,0.002121,0.004081,0.006779,0.004217,-0.005987
    Erfurt_EU:I14740,0.100164,0.121864,0.014708,-0.011305,0.011694,-0.004462,-0.00705,0.003231,0.005113,0.006743,-0.007145,-0.003147,0.002973,0.008945,-0.012351,0.000133,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.000377,-0.004877,-0.00549,-0.003215,0.000863,-0.003012,0.00467
    Erfurt_EU:I14847,0.103579,0.127957,0.001508,-0.018734,0.014156,-0.00502,0.00094,-0.001615,0.002863,0.007289,0.003248,-0.00045,0.004014,0.004679,-0.001493,-0.019888,-0.006128,0.004814,0.003645,-0.006378,-0.004492,-0.00272,0.003451,0.00253,-0.005029
    Erfurt_EU:I14850,0.103579,0.140143,0.013199,-0.017119,0.01908,-0.006136,-0.000235,0.011307,0.005113,0.004556,0.000974,-0.002098,-0.000743,0.007156,-0.004886,-0.012198,-0.008996,-0.003167,0.005782,-0.010005,-0.000749,-0.001484,0.012078,0.005543,0.002634
    Erfurt_EU:I14904,0.106994,0.116786,0.007165,-0.018411,0.023389,-0.008367,0.004935,0.010384,0.00225,0.016583,-0.004709,0.009591,0.001933,0.008395,0.000814,-0.008486,-0.022296,-0.002914,-0.001383,0,0.002246,-0.008903,0.002958,0.001687,0.003233
    Erfurt_EU:I14897,0.09675,0.142174,-0.003017,-0.039406,0.005232,-0.012271,0.013396,0.006231,0.005113,0.013121,0.000 812,-0.001049,0.000595,0.012937,-0.001629,0.001061,-0.021774,0.003294,0.005279,-0.014007,0.001373,-0.011871,0.0053,-0.006025,-0.006347



    agamemnon
    user anthrogenica cent on those 2 groups of erfurt jews

    Close up of the different Western Jewish populations:



    Erfurt_ME overlaps with German, French and Italian Jews as well as Sephardim to a large extent. Erfurt_o is within EAJ variation by the looks of it while Erfurt_EU strongly resembles Mainland Greeks. The latter's Eastern European pull can be clearly seen using the averages:


    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-06-22 at 16:51.

  23. #23
    Regular Member firetown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    For reference the Khazars aren’t described as looking Mongolic at all but rather more similar to the traditional descriptions for Scythians - you’d assume it wouldn’t be as pronounced but they were still said to be a red-haired people.
    Could you link me to and/or more information on that?

  24. #24
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post




    Seems the southern European admixture is South Italian like, as some speculated after the Rome papers and the implied Jewish communities within Rome falling on the East-Med cline.
    I haven't read the paper, but to me it is not surprising considering that Jews were expelled from the South of Italy, and eventually ended up in Germany in the Middle Ages.

    During the early period of the Middle Ages, Calabria, Basilicata and Apulia forming the Catepanate of Italy were under Byzantine rule. By the 11th century, the region was again a peaceful haven for the Jews. During this time many Apulian Torah scholars had regular contact with the Rabbinic academies of the east. The Chronicle of Ahimaaz in 1054 contains many details on Apulian Jewry. Apulian poets of the time include Shephatiah of Oria who wrote the poem "Yisrael Nosha" which is included in the Neilah service on the Day of Atonement in the Ashkenazi liturgy.[1] Amittai in Oria, and Silano in Venosa were also well-known poets. Torah scholars are mentioned from the middle of the tenth century in Bari, Oria, and Otranto. The Josippon chronicle, composed sometime in the mid-tenth century, is a product of the southern Italian Jewish/Hebrew culture. The south Italian Jewry contributed to the early Ashkenazi culture in central Europe. The Jews of France and Germany recognized the scholarship of the Apulian center as late as the 12th century. This is acknowledged in a quote by the French Tosafist, Jacob ben Meir: "For out of Bari goes forth the Law and the word of the Lord from Otranto" Other rabbinic scholars of Apulia in the 13th century include Isaiah ben Mali of Trani (the Elder), his grandson Isaiah ben Elijah of Trani, and Solomon ben ha-Yatom. The lives of the Jews in Apulia continued to be tolerable until the end of the 13th century. Jews in Apulia owned land, were employed in crafts, such as the dyeing industry. Thomas Aquinas, a native of southern Italy, refers to the employment of the Jews in southern Italy in 1274, saying: "it would do better to compel the Jews to work for their living, as is done in parts of Italy, than to allow them… to grow rich by usury."


    Toleration of the Jews in Apulia came to end when Apulia, as well as other parts of southern Italy, fell to the Kingdom of Naples. King Charles II of Anjou ordered the forced baptism of all Jews in his realm. Many Apulian Jews fled to neighboring central Italy and northern Italy. Many also moved to the Germanic areas of central Europe. All synagogues at that time were converted into Roman Catholic Churches and all Torah academies were closed. Many of the Jews who had been coerced into Christianity, still practised the Jewish faith in secret. These Jews became the historic population of Neofiti. These Crypto-Jews, also known in Hebrew as Anusim, were frequently compelled to live in special quarters known as Giudecca. They were regarded by the local Catholic population as heretics. In 1311 King Robert directed that those who had either secretly practised or relapsed back into Judaism should be severely punished; the order was renewed in 1343 by Joanna I. Both Jews and Neofiti who had again settled in Apulia in the 15th century were subjected to mob attacks occurring in Bari and Lecce in 1463. The invasion of Otranto by the Ottoman Turks in 1480 led to a large massacre of Jews who lived in the area.


    In 1492, after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, many Spanish and Portuguese Jews settled in Apulia. This led to a small revival of Jewish life in the area. Isaac Abrabanel lived in Apulia at this time after leaving Spain. However, the revival was short lived. In 1495, the Kingdom of Naples fell to the French and King Charles VIII ordered more restrictions to be placed on the Jews of Apulia. Also in 1495, the Jews Lecce were massacred and the Jewish quarter was burned to the ground.[2] Lecce was the birthplace of Abraham de Balmes a noted Hebrew expert. One Balmes' pupils was Daniel Bomberg.


    Among the privileges granted the city council of Martina Franca (Taranto) in 1495, King Frederick of Aragon forbade Crypto-Jews and Neofiti to press charges against those who robbed them (probably during the riots of 1494–1495 during the French invasion of the Kingdom of Naples) and prohibited their coming to live in that city. Also in 1495, the Jews of Martina Franca were massacred.


    When Apulia fell to the Spanish in 1510, the beginning of the end was in sight for the Apulian Jews. The Spanish Inquisition reached Apulia because of the large number of Jews, Crypto-Jews and Neofiti living in the area. A series of expulsions started 1511. Most Jews and Neofiti were expelled and or tortured to death. Most Jewish property was seized and all remaining Synogoues were rededicated as Catholic Churches.


    By 1540, the last expulsion finally ended Jewish life in Apulia. Most remaining Crypto-Jews were driven so deep underground that their presence finally came to an end as well. Some of the Apulian Jewish refugees fled north. However, most of them settled in Greece or the Aegean islands. The Apulian Jews set up new congregations in Corfu, Arta and Salonika. The last remnants of the Apulian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust.[3] [4]

    History of the Jews in Apulia - Wikipedia

  25. #25
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^That's all true, but to the best of my recollection there were already well-established Jewish communities in some German cities by the 9th century.

    Now, whether their numbers were increased by migration from Southern Italy and Sicily hundreds of years later I don't know. I do know many of the Jews expelled by Spaniards fled to Ottoman domains where they were treated better.

    I think that might have been a better bet for them than Germany, where beginning at the time of the First Crusade in 1096, they had already been decimated by pogroms, pogroms which continued in successive centuries.

    Regardless, it does seem to be rather a consensus among Jewish researchers that, as you say, the route was though Italy, perhaps picking up ancestry along the way.


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