Maslomecz Goths Y-DNA: 13 out of 18 are I1-M253

[Tomenable]

User Michał wrote on Anthrogenica:

I've seen the preliminary Y-DNA data for the Masłomęcz Group (coming from five different cemeteries) where 13 out of 18 tested males (thus 72%) turned out to be I1a. Most of them (9 individuals) were from branch Z63 (all from clade Y2245) and the remaining four were from branch Z58>Z59 (2 individuals) and from branch Y2592 (2 individuals, both from clade L22>FGC41265).


As for the nine Z63>>Y2245 males, six of them were from subclade Y3968 (including four Y3979 and one L1242) and the three remaining individuals were from subclade L1237>Y6634. I was told that there were no close relatives among those I1a males.


Here are all "terminal" subclades that could have been assigned to those 13 Masłomęcz Goths from haplogroup I1a:


I-Y6634 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y6634/
I-Y6634
I-BY3386 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY3386/
I-Y3968 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3968/
I-L1242 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1242/
I-Y3979 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3979/
I-Y3979
I-Y7626 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y7626/
I-Y7626
I-Z2041 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z2041/
I-Y46812 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y46812/
I-CTS11603 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS11603/
I-S9318 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S9318/

^^^
I'm posting below modern frequencies for these I1 subclades checked using this tool:


https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php


I-S9318 subclade:





I-CTS11603 subclade:





I-Y3968 subclade:





I-Z2041 subclade:





I-L1242 subclade:





I-Y46812 subclade:




I-Y6634 subclade:



I-BY3386 subclade:



I-Y7626 subclade:



I-Y3979 subclade:

[Tomenable]

^^^
Apparently some of them stayed.

Maybe not a coincidence, that Poland under king Boleslaus I was called Regnum Slaworum, Gothorum seu Polonorum:

https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Epita...2awa_Chrobrego

Full text:

Hac jacet in tumba princeps, generosa columba.
Inclyte dux, tibi laus, [suav?]issime Boleslaus.
Perfido patre natus, sed credula matre
Fonte sacro lotus, servus Domini puta totus
Praecidens comam septenni tempore Romam
Tu possedisti, velut athleta Christi,
Regnum Slaworum, Gothorum seu Polonorum.
Vicisti terras, faciens bellum quoque guerras
Ob famamque bonam tibi contulit Otto coronam,
Caesar praecellens, a te ducalia pellens.
Plurima dona sibi, quae placuere tibi,
Huic detulisti, quia divitias habuisti.
Chabri tu es dictus, sis in aevum benedictus.
Propter luctamen sit tibi salus. Amen.

^^^
Automatic English google-translation:

"On this tomb lies the prince, the noble dove.
In honor of the duke, praise to you, most assuredly, Boleslaus.
Born of a faithless father, but trusting mother
The sacred fountain lotus, the servant of the Lord
I cut my hair in seven years' time in Rome
You have purchased me as an athlete of Christ
The kingdom of the Slavs, of the Goths, or of the Poles.
You have conquered countries by making wars and wars
On account of good reputations Otto bestowed the crown
Caesar, pre-eminent, repelling the ducats from you.
many gifts to her which have pleased thee
You brought it to him, because you had riches.
You are called Chabri, you are blessed forever.
Because the struggle is your salvation. Amen."

[enter_tain]

Very cool. Any autosomal tests to see how much modern populations derive from these types of people?

[Tomenable]

Very cool. Any autosomal tests to see how much modern populations derive from these types of people?

Yes. Three autosomal clusters have been detected in Wielbark Culture:

1. Local Population* (this includes samples from Pruszcz Gdanski):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruszcz_Gda%C5%84ski

2. Swedish Population (this includes samples from Weklice):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weklice

3. Danish Population (or autosomally Danish-like at least)

*I know rumours that Local Population had R1a-M458, but not certain.

=====

Timeline of admixture events from the 1st century AD to 10th century AD:

[Tomenable]

^^^ "Local Population" could be the Venedae / Vistula Venedi mentioned in the 1st century AD:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post648194

Sources which talk about the Venedae / Vistula Veneti (the Eastern European ones) listed chronologically:

50-100 AD:

Pliny, Naturalis Historia, IV, 97 - Venedae
Tacitus, Germania, 46 - Venethi / Veneti

100-200 AD:

Ptolemy, Geographike, III 5 - Ouenedai

200-250 AD:

Hippolytus of Rome, Chronicon

300-400 AD:

Tabula Peutingeriana, segment VIII - Venadi sarmatae (north of the Carpathians & south of the Baltic Sea) and Venedi (north of the Danube)
Marcianus Heracleensis, Periplus Maris Extern�, II 39

500-550 AD:

Jordanes, Getica, 34-36, 119, 246-247 (his work is largely based on Cassiodorus, Historia Gothorum)

600-650 AD:

Fredegarius, Chronicon - https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/fredegarius.html - e.g. this excerpt: "Sclavos, cognomento Winidos / Winedos"
Monk Jonas, Life of St. Columban - https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/columban.asp - "land of the Wends, who are also called Slavs"

850-900 AD:

Alfred the Great's translation of Orosius' Chorography

[Tomenable]

enter_tain,

I see that you have J2b haplogroup.

There is also one J2b sample from Maslomecz region in Poland and he is autsomally "Southern" (unlike the rest of the samples).

This sample is an outlier, not part of any of the 3 main clusters which I mentioned above. There will likely be also other outliers.

=====

Archeogentic Conference about Wielbark Culture, its history, and its further expansion will start in Poznan University in late June:

https://archeo-amu-edu-pl.translate....en&_x_tr_hl=pl

[Tomenable]

In that timeline which I posted above, populations described as PG = Pruszcz Gdanski site:

"History of Pruszcz Gdanski (from Wikipedia)


The town was first mentioned as 'Prust'. The Polish government of the region employed the name Pruszcz until the town became part of Prussia as the result of the Partitions of Poland. For a couple of centuries Pruszcz was often visited by Polish kings, during their travels to nearby Gdańsk.


Between 1871 and 1920 Pruszcz as Praust was part of Germany. Unlike most of Eastern Pomerania, the town did not return to Poland after regaining independence, but was included in the short-lived Free City of Danzig by the Treaty of Versailles. During World War II, Pruszcz was the location of Nazi Germany's Praust concentration camp, a female subcamp of the Stutthof concentration camp. The region was reintegrated with Poland in 1945."

[Tomenable]

So in Maslomecz Group there is a lot of I1-M253, today no region in the world has such a high frequency of I1 as far as I know.

If I am not mistaken, these regions are among the ones with the higest concentrations of I1-M253:

Gotland (island), Sweden - 50%
V�stra G�taland, Sweden - 50% (in this case I have not verified if it is true)
Satakunta Region, Finland - 38%

[Tomenable]

One thing to consider, however, is that there were a lot of cremations in Iron Age Poland, while DNA comes just from skeletal burials.

And frequencies of Y haplogroups among populations which practiced cremation could be drastically different than in skeletal burials.

But don't worry because populations which practiced cremation are also represented among skeletal burials - just at a low frequency.

[Riverman]

So in Maslomecz Group there is a lot of I1-M253, today no region in the world has such a high frequency of I1 as far as I know.

If I am not mistaken, these regions are among the ones with the higest concentrations of I1-M253:

Gotland (island), Sweden - 50%
V�stra G�taland, Sweden - 50% (in this case I have not verified if it is true)
Satakunta Region, Finland - 38%

One problem in Maslomecz was the widespread usage of cremation. This means, that you can't say whether the cremating part of the population had the same genetic profile.

So far, among the proposed interpretations regarding the use of this type of graves it has been most often suggested that there was a lack of decisiveness in the selection of the type of burial. This could of course be true in case of co-existence of communities (also multiethnic ones) with different burial rites who used the same necropoles. Such a possibility was taken into consideration by Andrzej Kokowski, who discussed the origin of biritual burials in the Masłomęcz group. In his opinion, graves of inhumation form which contain burnt bones make an impression that the decision on the burial rite was postponed to the very last moment (Kokowski 2007: 129).

There were Dacian and Sarmatian influences in the burial rites of the Gothic dominated zone:

Of certain significance is also the habit of placing burnt bones into grave pits. In the opinion of Andrzej Kokowski (1991: 197�200) this habit is of Sarmatian origin and it is first known from the Masłomęcz group and the Chernyakhov culture.

https://www.academia.edu/25419335/Bi...uctory_Remarks

[Tomenable]

One problem in Maslomecz was the widespread usage of cremation. This means, that you can't say whether the cremating part of the population had the same genetic profile.

Yes, but apparently at least some bones of these cremating populations were found. They will just be under-represented.

======

BTW:

I also have this information about the upcoming study:

"We managed to reconstruct the core autosomal DNA of the Piast Dynasty - before their mixing with foreign princesses."

So we will know what was the autosomal profile of the "founder of the dynasty":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piast_the_Wheelwright

Because later the Piasts were marrying princesses from neighbouring countries and became a mish-mash autosomally.

[Tomenable]

Jerzy Kmiecinski, "Die Probe der Bestimmung von Gotenkristallisationszentrum (in Anlehnung an Studien an Bauwesen und Siedlungsgestalt)":

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/elemen...hdl_11089_7393

Abstract:

"Die Grenzenbestimmung der besprochenen Territorien auf den Gebieten von Pommern und von S�d- und Mittelskandinavien wird durch das Thema des Forschungsprogramm "Peregrinatio Gothica", sowie auch durch eine gewisse �hnlichkeit der geomorphologischen Struktur begr�ndet. Terrainstruktur, Bodenbedingungen spielten sicherlich eine bestimmte Rolle in der Siedlungst�tigkeit des Menschen, ohne aber dessen Rolle zu determinieren, besonders in den Zelten der relativ fortgeschrittenen wirtschaftlich-gesellschaftlichen Entwicklung. Der Charakter der von der Bev�lkerung aus S�d- und Mittelskandinavien und auch aus Pommern gef�hrten Wirtschaft scheint �hnlich zu sein. Darauf weisen die Ergebnisse der paleobotanlschen Forschungen hin, die sowohl f�r Pommern als auch im h�heren Masse f�r Skandinavien durchgef�hrt worden sind. Bisherige komparative Studien widmen den Siedlungen, deren Planentwerfen Bebauung und den einzelnen architektonischen Merkmalen wenig Platz. In der R�mischen Kaiserzeit trifft man auf dem Gebiet von Skandinavien Einzehl- und mehrh�fige Siedlungen von der unterschiedlichen Raumfl�che. Die skandinavischen Materialien etlauben die einzelnen Objekte zu rekonstruieren. Charakteristisch f�r ganz Skandinavien und J�tl�ndische Halbinsel ist ein Dreischiffgeb�ude von der L�nge 10-45 m und der Breite 5-8,5 m. Die Art des in der Konstruktion der W�nde benutzten Baumaterials war durch die naturellen Bedingungen determiniert. Zu diesem Zweck wurden Holz, Stein, Ton und Rasen benutzt. Die langen skandinavischen H�user wurden in den Wohn- und Wirtschaftsteil geteilt. Im Wohnteil waren die Herdstellen situiert. Diese Art der H�user war von der Mittlere Bronze zeit bis zum Ende der Wikingerzeit f�r Skandinavien charakteristisch Auf dem Gebiet von Skandinavien kam man auch auf die Spuren der Wehrkonstruktionen. Da aber der Forschungsstand dieser Objekte bisher ungen�gend ist, wird die Interpretation deren Funktion schwach begr�ndet. Pommern ist in Hinsicht der Sidlungsplanung und Baukonstruktionen schwach erforscht. Dieser Zustand kann auch durch h�ufigere Verwendung in den Geb�uden der ein oder zweischiffigen Grundstockkonstruktion, die wenig bemerkbare Spuren l�sst, erl�utert werden, oder auch durch gr�ssere Anzahl der einh�figen Ansiedlungen, die im Gel�nde schwieriger zu erfassen sind* Es sind auch nur einige Siedlungen bekannt, die die Spuren der vermutlichen Befestigungen besitzen. Auf Grund der durchgef�hrten Beobachtungen soll festgestellt werden, dass auf beiden gegen�bergestellten Territorien von Skandinavien und Pommern in der Sp�t-Latene- Periode und r�mischen Kaiserzeit konstruktiv ganz andere Geb�udetypen bestanden, die durch jahrhundertalte Tradition gestaltet worden waren. Minimale ekologische Unterschiede stellen keine Erkl�rungen der Unterschiede zwischen den miteinanderverglichenen Territorien dar. Sie wurden auch nicht durch die Art der gef�hrten Wirtschaft verursacht, weil sie f�r beide Gebiete �hnlich war - vorwiegend Zucht - landwirtschaftlich. Die festgestallten Unterschiede ergeben sich also aus den Kulturtraditionen der die besprochenen Territorien bewohnten Population und suggerieren, dass man in diesem Fall �ber die deutliche Diffusion der Menschengruppen aus Skandinavien auf die Gebiete von Pommern nicht sprechen kann. Auch andere Erscheinungen, die zur Gesamtheit der kulturellen Beziehungen geh�ren, weisen keine gr�ssere �bereinstimmung auf, als diese, die durch allgemeine f�r r�mische Kaiserzeit charakteristische unifizierende Tendenzen beschrieben werden. Die vom Autor des Artikels gef�hrten weiteren Forschungen lassen n�here Zusammenh�nge zwischen dem Gebiet von Pommern und Niederweichsel sowie Niedersachsen und der Niederelbe suchen. In diesem Licht k�nnte man das Zentrum der Gotenkristallisation vom Anfang an auf dem Gebiet von Pommern sehen."

[Tomenable]

^^^ And also:

Elzbieta Grzelakowska, in search of skeletons from the Roman Period:


https://dspace.uni.lodz.pl/bitstream...=1&isAllowed=y


Justyna Jedeluk, in search of skeletal burials of the Przeworsk Culture:


https://www.academia.edu/36380055/UN...RESIE_RZYMSKIM

[Tomenable]

M. Tempelmann-Maczynska, "Specyficzne poch�wki kultury wielbarskiej" ("Unusual / peculiar burials of the Wielbark Culture"):

https://dspace.uni.lodz.pl/xmlui/bit...=1&isAllowed=y

Professor WOJCIECH K�ĆKA -"EINE ERINNERUNG NACH VIELEN JAHREN" (with Summary in German):

https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bits...86KA_11-21.pdf

[Tomenable]

And also I have this information:

"We managed to reconstruct the core autosomal DNA of the Piast Dynasty - before their mixing with foreign princesses."

So we will know what was the autosomal profile of the "founder of the dynasty", so to speak:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piast_the_Wheelwright (this is the semi-legendary founder)

Because later the Piasts were marrying princesses from neighbouring countries and became a mish-mash autosomally.

^^^
They have DNA from over a dozen Piasts, and they know who married which princess, so they could do this, I guess.

Etymology of Piast:

"Two theories explain the etymology of the word Piast.
The first gives the root as piasta ("hub" in Polish), a reference to his profession. The second relates Piast to piastun ("custodian" or "keeper"). This could hint at Piast's initial position as a majordomo, or a "steward of the house", in the court of another ruler, and the subsequent takeover of power by Piast. This would parallel the development of the early medieval Frankish dynasties, when the Mayors of the Palace of the Merovingian kings gradually usurped political control."

^^^
The previous legendary dynasty were the Popielids, so if Piast was at first a majordomo, he could be a majordomo in the court of the Popielids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popielids

"An Ancient Tale: When the Sun Was a God" describes the legendary struggle for power between Popielids and Piasts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Anc..._Sun_Was_a_God

Rebellious peasants attacking Popielid stronghold* (scene from "An Ancient Tale" movie):



Another scene - Popielids hired a band of Viking mercenaries against Piasts' supporters:



*According to legends, the main Popielid stronghold was Kruszwica at the Lake Goplo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruszwica

Palynological studies have confirmed that the area around Lake Goplo was continuously farmed since the Late Iron Age until the 10th century:

https://www.britannica.com/science/palynology

Similar continuity has been confirmed by palynological and archaeological studies near Kalisz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalisz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calisia

"Calisia (Greek: Καλισία, Latin: Calisia) was a "station" on so-called "Amber Road", mentioned by Ptolemy, formerly universally identified with Kalisz in Poland. Besides the similarity of the names, the identification was supported by the closeness between the latitude given by Ptolemy (52�50') and the actual latitude of Kalisz (51�45'27").


The validity of these arguments is currently in doubt (...)"

[Tomenable]

^^^
Too bad that we will never know the autosomal core of the Popielids (and if they were from the same cluster as the Piasts, or not).

[Tomenable]

As mentioned before, it seems that they found 3 autosomal clusters in Iron Age Northern Poland:

1. Swedish-like in Weklice (among other sites)
2. Local in Pruszcz Gdanski (among other sites)
3. Danish-like (we still don't know where)

So my current guess is that in terms of geography it looked like this:

1. Swedish = in Pogesania and Pomesania
2. Local = in Pomerelia
3. Danish = in Pommern

^^^
In this scenario Danish-like cluster represents Jastorf expansion (by foot) from the west, and Swedish - King Berig's Goths from Sweden.

[Illyri]

Yes. Three autosomal clusters have been detected in Wielbark Culture:

1. Local Population* (this includes samples from Pruszcz Gdanski):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruszcz_Gda%C5%84ski

2. Swedish Population (this includes samples from Weklice):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weklice

3. Danish Population (or autosomally Danish-like at least)

*I know rumours that Local Population had R1a-M458, but not certain.

=====

Timeline of admixture events from the 1st century AD to 10th century AD:

I remember reading somewhere that three of these samples were R1a, one Z284 and two Z280. Does anyone know how they cluster autosomally ?

[kmak]

^^^
They have DNA from over a dozen Piasts, and they know who married which princess, so they could do this, I guess.

Etymology of Piast:

"Two theories explain the etymology of the word Piast.
The first gives the root as piasta ("hub" in Polish), a reference to his profession. The second relates Piast to piastun ("custodian" or "keeper"). This could hint at Piast's initial position as a majordomo, or a "steward of the house", in the court of another ruler, and the subsequent takeover of power by Piast. This would parallel the development of the early medieval Frankish dynasties, when the Mayors of the Palace of the Merovingian kings gradually usurped political control."

^^^
The previous legendary dynasty were the Popielids, so if Piast was at first a majordomo, he could be a majordomo in the court of the Popielids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popielids

"An Ancient Tale: When the Sun Was a God" describes the legendary struggle for power between Popielids and Piasts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Anc..._Sun_Was_a_God

Rebellious peasants attacking Popielid stronghold* (scene from "An Ancient Tale" movie):



Another scene - Popielids hired a band of Viking mercenaries against Piasts' supporters:



*According to legends, the main Popielid stronghold was Kruszwica at the Lake Goplo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruszwica

Palynological studies have confirmed that the area around Lake Goplo was continuously farmed since the Late Iron Age until the 10th century:

https://www.britannica.com/science/palynology

Similar continuity has been confirmed by palynological and archaeological studies near Kalisz:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalisz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calisia

"Calisia (Greek: Καλισία, Latin: Calisia) was a "station" on so-called "Amber Road", mentioned by Ptolemy, formerly universally identified with Kalisz in Poland. Besides the similarity of the names, the identification was supported by the closeness between the latitude given by Ptolemy (52�50') and the actual latitude of Kalisz (51�45'27").


The validity of these arguments is currently in doubt (...)"

Do Piast Dynasty carry R1b Y-DNA?

[Tomenable]

Do Piast Dynasty carry R1b Y-DNA?

Yes there are rumours that they carry R1b (and I hope it is my subclade, LOL).

Perhaps this BAM file is a Piast?:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/SAMN06046900 - Gniezno1 individual

GO_1, Gniezno (1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1

Y-DNA calls for Gniezno1 individual:

L150.1/PF6274.1/S351.1 = R1b1a2
PF6274.1/L150.1/S351.1 = R1b1a2
S351.1/L150.1/PF6274.1 = R1b1a2

This is just a "screening BAM" - I'm not sure if the final high quality BAM for this individual is also available somewhere or not.

[Tomenable]

According to Purzycki (Lithuanized as Purickas) from Lithuania, the Romanov dynasty are R1b-L617:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....690#post522690

^^^ Are the Romanov and Piast dynasties related ???

[Tomenable]

According to Purzycki (Lithuanized as Purickas) from Lithuania, the Romanov dynasty are R1b-L617:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....690#post522690

^^^ Are the Romanov and Piast dynasties related ???

[Tomenable]

Who are these Belarusians and Ukrainians with R1b-L617, I could not find ANY information about who they are:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT156400/

^^^
They started popping out like crazy in that YFull tree about January and February 2022, if I remember correctly.

It seems that they are the descendants of the Romanovs.

[vukojebina]

That's a very high number I1-Z63 and 9 of them belong to PR683/Y2245>Y3968 considering how rare or uncommon it is in modern populations, including Poland. This haplogroup is actually somewhat common among Bosnians and Serbs (I don't have enough information about Croats).
So the theory about Bosnians and surrounding area being at least partly descended from Goths is now confirmed by evidence with this study.
Z63 among Bosnians is at least around 3% frequency, which is higher than in Scandinavia, only about 1-2% frequency there. The subclade Y6228 found among Bosniaks (from Bošnjački Dnk projekat) mostly in the Bosnian Krajina and Northern Bosnia, East Bosnia and East Hercegovina regions.

[Maciamo]

It's very interesting to have some pre-Roman Gothic DNA samples and that such a high percentage belong to Y-haplogroup I1!

I wrote many years ago that I1-Z63 was Continental Germanic (almost absent from Scandinavia) and that specific clades like Y2245 and S2097 were surely of Gothic origin. It's nice to have a confirmation at least for Y2245.