Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal Extraordinary Physical Stature

[Archetype0ne]

To be fair Centrum99, as a Czech / Central European you would not get the politics behind the bullshit. Its a Balkan asylum thing. Beware of the echo chambers you might find yourself in, too easy to slip on the worldview.

If you want a brief peer review, ask your Albanian co author for the translation of my post. There are some legit points there, but given that its about the research methodology, its of no use post factum. The topic itself is very interesting, now you should ask yourself are you satisfied with the inquiry? Did you manage to research the matter and advance the topic in any meaningful way? Much of this could have been a twitter thread, or a 40 minute class assignment, let alone a research paper...
Trust me on this, there is a reason you cant google translate my previous post, not in small part cause the serious peer review you did not get during the publishing process, you should not come by in online fora.

Take it easy.

---

Edit: Mount turn on DMs mate. Saw you have them off here and over the other forum.

[Centrum99]

From Patterson, Nick, et al. "Large-scale migration into Britain during the Middle to Late Bronze Age." Nature 601.7894 (2022): 588-594. Supplementary material.



Bezdanjača Cave, Croatia
Bezdanjača Cave is located on the Vatinovac hill, near Vrhovine, in the Lika region of Croatia. The cave was first recognized as a prehistoric site in 1964 and the archaeological excavations began in 1965. In total, 1176m of the cave system has been explored, of which only the first 190m are of archaeological interest. The difference in height between the highest and the lowest point of the cave is around 200m. The entrance to the cave is located at 740m above sea level, and measures 31m tall. At its base, the entrance bifurcates into two main branches, namely the western channel and the eastern channel. The cave is naturally hidden and difficult to access, which suggests that it has lain undisturbed since the cessation of its use by prehistoric communities (Malez 1979/1980).
Just over 70m from the entrance of the eastern channel, archaeologists excavated the greatest number of archaeological deposits, which revealed the presence of several rather well-preserved human skeletons. Architectural remains included numerous drystone walls and wooden structures that could have elaborated the entrance to the cave or formed platforms functioning as working surfaces or beds. Traces of hearths, pottery and bronze artefacts, as well as bracken and hay, were found both on the stone structures and on the floor of the channel, and were used in some cases to assess the chronology of the site (Drechsler-Bižić 1979/1980;Malez 1979/1980; Malinar 1998).
Two cultural horizons can be distinguished at Bezdanjača: an older one, dating to the Middle Bronze Age (BrC/D, 1500–1200 BCE), and a more recent one, dating to the Late Bronze Age (BrD/HaA, 1200–1000 BCE) (Drechsler-Bižić 1979/1980; Benac1993/1994). Radiocarbon analysis of several wood samples from the site yielded dates of 1350–1100 BCE (Sliepčević and Srdoč 1979/1980). Recent radiocarbon dates for two individuals from Bezdanjača align with the previous radiocarbon dates from the same site.
A petrous bone from one of the individuals (BzV 10a) excavated from the eastern channel yielded sample I18719 (male). This mature adult displayed possible peri-mortem trauma. Unfortunately, only the left side of the cranium is preserved.


Source of sample: Siniša Radović, Institute for Quaternary Palaeontology and Geology, Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb Authors of entry: Siniša Radović, Institute for Quaternary Palaeontology and Geology, Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb and Mario Novak, Centre for Applied Bioanthropology, Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb




That's everything what we can tell at the moment. We can work only with data that are available. I will definitely not formulate my text as "To our knowledge, the oldest occurrence of I-M170 (I2a1a2-M423) in the Dinaric area was documented in the Bezdanjača Cave but one Albanian guy from the Eupedia forum disagrees."

[Archetype0ne]

As you said earlier, and for the most part I agree with is that this was not relevant to the study, rather a fringe hypothesis that somehow found itself in the paper. Whoever wrote the line knew quite well what he was doing "to the best of our knowledge".

As for the excerpt you quoted, radiocarbon dating wood, and radiocarbon dating the bone sample itself are two very different things.
It takes a bit more thorough research, that fringe hypothesis that was inserted into the paper requires a whole other study. If one was to do so, he would have come across the fact that the sample could as well be a WWII victim. Certainly not a 1kbc samples, since the mtdna mutation is a XIII century one. But given Harvard protocols its very unlikely that the sample was contaminated, at least not by their lab. Thus the likeliest scenarios are either a contamination dating to the 80s with the excavation, or a anachronistic burial, to the piece of wood that was carbon dated.

-

Anyways, did someone think from the group of dividing the populations into Y-DNA groups by region, then running statistical models and testing the hypothesis? Or was that too much work? I would imagine it would take a lot of funds to test Y-DNA match it with height and then run the stats. Maybe in the future you could do this topic some justice.

[Centrum99]

To be fair Centrum99, as a Czech / Central European you would not get the politics behind the bullshit. Its a Balkan asylum thing. Beware of the echo chambers you might find yourself in, too easy to slip on the worldview.

If you want a brief peer review, ask your Albanian co author for the translation of my post. There are some legit points there, but given that its about the research methodology, its of no use post factum. The topic itself is very interesting, now you should ask yourself are you satisfied with the inquiry? Did you manage to research the matter and advance the topic in any meaningful way? Much of this could have been a twitter thread, or a 40 minute class assignment, let alone a research paper...
Trust me on this, there is a reason you cant google translate my previous post, not in small part cause the serious peer review you did not get during the publishing process, you should not come by in online fora.

Take it easy.

---

Edit: Mount turn on DMs mate. Saw you have them off here and over the other forum.

I translated your post by Google Translator but I could not really understand what you are talking about. Most probably, you cannot simply get some points of the text because you see such data for the first time. But that's not my fault, I am sorry. Btw, the posts appear to be full of some nationalistic conspiracy theories, which supports my suspicion that we have gotten very far from science and I should rather leave this forum for good.

[Archetype0ne]

I translated your post by Google Translator but I could not really understand what you are talking about. Most probably, you cannot simply get some points of the text because you see such data for the first time. But that's not my fault, I am sorry. Btw, the posts appear to be full of some nationalistic conspiracy theories, which supports my suspicion that we have gotten very far from science and I should rather leave this forum for good.

More assumptions instead of doing the legwork, even when you have a co author that can help you out. Can't say I am surprised.

All the best to you.

[Dushman]

This Centrum dude is not one of the authors and I really hope so for the sake of the team behind this paper.

He’s the textbook example of xenophobia and hate. The dude saw a few flags and already connected the dots, Albanian-nationalism-conspiracy theory-incapable of understanding his high IQ study, without even understanding a single word from the Albanian text written in dialect.

No need to cross check with his Kosovar Albanian colleague, he “already knows because that’s what Albanians are like”.

The dude also feels above us when at Eupedia and other foras people are literally bullied/looked down for connecting Y-DNA with physical appearance. For us, these are topics from 2011 when I2a giants was a thing.

All we need now is for PaleoRevenge, the Albanian member from the Ashkali ethnic minority, to gather a team and write about the links between Y-DNA and personalities. He’s already convinced that R1b are calm, I2a Din are brave, I1 give birth to females and dominate their women. Still waiting for his analysis on E-V13, J2b2, J2a, etc.

As absurd as it looks, this Czech Centrum dude is at the same level.

[Archetype0ne]

Edit: NVM, no benefit of the doubt, this guy is pretty challenged.

[MOESAN]

A founder effect can explain a (not longlasting) correlation between genetico-phaenotypical aspects and Y-haplo, AS ONE TIME of history.
Just a general statement, I don't took part in the challenge linked too tightly to the local Y-I2a2 question.
That said, I guess someones of us would be glad to can read posts in English in place of some kind of Albanian, a respectable language, but not so often known by non-Alabanian forumers. No offense to anyone.

[Archetype0ne]

A founder effect can explain a (not longlasting) correlation between genetico-phaenotypical aspects and Y-haplo, AS ONE TIME of history.
Just a general statement, I don't took part in the challenge linked too tightly to the local Y-I2a2 question.
That said, I guess someones of us would be glad to can read posts in English in place of some kind of Albanian, a respectable language, but not so often known by non-Alabanian forumers. No offense to anyone.

Tash keta njerz skan as teze, as hipoteze te testume, as kan perdor asnifar statistike per te vertetu apo pergenjeshtru. E pare punes qysh ka shpetu ky titull deri ne publikim. E dyta mire kishen pas bo te bonjen test korrelacioni mes paternal Y dhe height me tabele p values. E treta punes, popullatat e vendeve o dasht mi nda ne grupe paternale mas paku per mu be ky test, po jo krejt i kan shti mni thes si sharlatan. E katerta, shife cfar bibliografie kan perdor, far punimi te dobet moti skisha pa. Parmeno me bo analize kulitative (as opposed to quantitative) pa u bazu se paku me meta research qe perfshin punime te tilla

Now there is no thesis. No tested hypothesis. No statistics used to verify or falsify any claim/hypothesis.
Fist of all, how did the title survive all the way to publication.
Second of all it would have been good if they tested for correlation between Y-DNA and height.
Third of all, the populations of the analyzed countries should have been divided into paternal markers for any such hypothesis to be tested. Puting whole populations in one bag is questionable in every sense.
Fourth of all, look at the bibliography. Imagine doing qualitative analysis without at the minimum relying on a meta analysis which includes papers of this kind:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04088-9

The rest is me being aggravated at the fact that, even if its an open publication, the paper went through without even such basic peer reviews. Saying the mentor, if there was one involved should have helped them out, and that I am writing in Albanian (dialect) where even Google translate wont help, since a message has an audience. And the authors should not look for a peer review on hobbyist fora, when their academic oversight let them down.

Took a good 3 minutes to translate this for you and other members despite not feeling like it.
But if one message in Albanian among 10 in English, for specific audience reasons is enough to put people off, maybe I should not have just out of spite :)

Edit: My last 2cents on this thread.




What I said from the very first post here. Good as far as data gathering, assuming sound methodology. A curveball somewhere in between. And what one would expect, very little analytical contribution given the flawed research methodology used.
Compare the title, to the "thesis", to the conclusion. Maybe there is no disconnect, and my review of it is flawed. We sure learned a lot from the conclusion/s. But surely the data can be useful in the future. I even suggested changes to the methodology that would allow for hypothesis testing. As the authors concede, it requires comprehensive genetic studies, quite expensive even with just skin deep Y analysis, which in itself has to be complemented with autosomal analysis, if the very title of the paper claims is to be justified.

[Dushman]

A founder effect can explain a (not longlasting) correlation between genetico-phaenotypical aspects and Y-haplo, AS ONE TIME of history.
Just a general statement, I don't took part in the challenge linked too tightly to the local Y-I2a2 question.
That said, I guess someones of us would be glad to can read posts in English in place of some kind of Albanian, a respectable language, but not so often known by non-Alabanian forumers. No offense to anyone.

Agreed! The problem is that Montenegro with roughly 30% I2a has the same height with regions with 70% I2a. Then you have the rest of Croatia, Serbia, not to mention North Macedonia and Bulgaria.

The problem is that Ukraine's average height is 175cm and Belarus 175.9cm, so their height is rather Autosomal and local Balkan and Carpathian.

According to the authors logic, if Montenegrins and Herzegovinians wouldn't mix with an Albanian-like population they'd have an average height of 2m tall.

The only explanation is that these specific regions of the Dinaric Alps coincidentally became a refugia for several tall populations, tall local Illyrian and maybe a Dacians, Gothic, Celtic, etc. admixture.

[mount123]

A founder effect can explain a (not longlasting) correlation between genetico-phaenotypical aspects and Y-haplo, AS ONE TIME of history.
Just a general statement, I don't took part in the challenge linked too tightly to the local Y-I2a2 question.
That said, I guess someones of us would be glad to can read posts in English in place of some kind of Albanian, a respectable language, but not so often known by non-Alabanian forumers. No offense to anyone.

The correct nomenclature is I-Y3120. I-Y3120 is absent in pre-Medieval-Slavic migration Balkans. There are many up to date papers in regards to this topic.

The misdated sample they referenced has a strong Slavic autosomal profile, Slavic uniparentals, a mtDNA that formed in the 13th century and was not radiocarbon dated. The problem with that individual's statements (Centrum99) was that it did not really reflect any kind of expertise in population genetics. Someone who does not know how to analyze autosomal DNA and thinks it needs a lab to run autosomal coordinates (very likely does not even know what those are) and speaks of science is just laughable. Not to mention all of the problematic and racist ad hominems. This person also does not know any english which is a red flag for a "scientist".

[MOESAN]

@Archetype

you wrote:
The rest is me being aggravated at the fact that, even if its an open publication, the paper went through without even such basic peer reviews. Saying the mentor, if there was one involved should have helped them out, and that I am writing in Albanian (dialect) where even Google translate wont help, since a message has an audience. And the authors should not look for a peer review on hobbyist fora, when their academic oversight let them down.

Took a good 3 minutes to translate this for you and other members despite not feeling like it.
But if one message in Albanian among 10 in English, for specific audience reasons is enough to put people off, maybe I should not have just out of spite :)

Edit: My last 2cents on this thread.

I anwer:
My remark about Albanian language doesn't signify I was offuscated by the use of it, just that it didn't help at all.

[MOESAN]

s you hve surelyunderstood, my post concerned only reasonning, nothing more. I read so often that Y-haplo has nothing to do with autosomals, which is true concerning genetic linkage, but false concerning the effects on crossings by populations carrying all these genes, spite these genes can go independantly their way after some more generations...

[Centrum99]

s you hve surelyunderstood, my post concerned only reasonning, nothing more. I read so often that Y-haplo has nothing to do with autosomals, which is true concerning genetic linkage, but false concerning the effects on crossings by populations carrying all these genes, spite these genes can go independantly their way after some more generations...

But these Albanian folks can't understand it somehow. They look at it like if they just fell from the Moon. They even did not bother to check the previous works of mine, where I successfully tested this methodology not only with height, but even with the geographical distribution of lactose tolerance. Do they actually realize what a correlation of r = -0.86 with 55 countries means?! And I got really amazing results even with other physical characteristics. (Someone should also remind them that the Late Eneolithic expansion of the Bell Beaker culture and R1b-S116 was accompanied by the spread of a highly specific cranial morphology - another evidence of a strong founder effect associated with Y haplogroups).

In fact, the sheer proportion of genetic ancestries (Villabruna/WHG, Yamnaya, Anatolian Farmers, etc.) will mostly fail as the predictor of these physical traits because it does not reflect the subsequent founder effects that these populations went through. This is especially evident in the example of R1b-S116 in Western Europe - some phenotypes of these people are not only different, but even antagonistic to the original phenotype of the Yamnaya people.

[Johane Derite]

But these Albanian folks can't understand it somehow. They look at it like if they just fell from the Moon. They even did not bother to check the previous works of mine, where I successfully tested this methodology not only with height, but even with the geographical distribution of lactose tolerance. Do they actually realize what a correlation of r = -0.86 with 55 countries means?! And I got really amazing results even with other physical characteristics. (Someone should also remind them that the Late Eneolithic expansion of the Bell Beaker culture and R1b-S116 was accompanied by the spread of a highly specific cranial morphology - another evidence of a strong founder effect associated with Y haplogroups).
In fact, the sheer proportion of genetic ancestries (Villabruna/WHG, Yamnaya, Anatolian Farmers, etc.) will mostly fail as the predictor of these physical traits because it does not reflect the subsequent founder effects that these populations went through. This is especially evident in the example of R1b-S116 in Western Europe - some phenotypes of these people are not only different, but even antagonistic to the original phenotype of the Yamnaya people.

Your paper is claiming that south slavic I is in the balkans since the bronze age. This is a false claim that was put in the paper either intentionally or due to negligence.

[Johane Derite]

But these Albanian folks can't understand it somehow. .

And where are you from? What type of folk are you that you try smuggle fake dating results to deceive people about this haplogroup presence in the region. You cant understand somehow that this is pathetic?

[Centrum99]

Your paper is claiming that south slavic I is in the balkans since the bronze age. This is a false claim that was put in the paper either intentionally or due to negligence.

This is a claim that was put in the paper based on the available evidence. (Yes, it's that simple!) Or do you want to claim that you know where this lineage came from? What evidence do we have for the presence or non-presence of I2a1a2-M423 in the Dinaric Alps? How many prehistoric Y DNA samples from the Dinaric Alps do we have at this moment?

Montenegro: 0
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 0
Albania: 0
Slovenia: 5 (2 x J2, 1 x R1b-U106, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 x I2a1b1-M223)
Coastal Croatia: 13 (8 x J2, 1 x G, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 X E1b, 1 x I2a1a2-M423, 1 X C1)
Macedonia: 1 (1 x G)

So we have 19 samples covering 7000 years. I think that when looking at this "evidence", everybody should rather reconsider his hypotheses.

Even if you assumed that I2a1a2-M423 came from "somewhere" with the Slavs, you still need to find out where that "somewhere" was because as you certainly know, finding I2a1a2-M423 in Europe is not very easy before the Christus era. We have a plenty of I2a1b1-M223 popping out almost everywhere, but I2a1a2-M423 (and I1a-M253) are almost nowhere to be found.

[Hawk]

This is a claim that was put in the paper based on the available evidence. (Yes, it's that simple!) Or do you want to claim that you know where this lineage came from? What evidence do we have for the presence or non-presence of I2a1a2-M423 in the Dinaric Alps? How many prehistoric Y DNA samples from the Dinaric Alps do we have at this moment?

Montenegro: 0
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 0
Albania: 0
Slovenia: 5 (2 x J2, 1 x R1b-U106, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 x I2a1b1-M223)
Coastal Croatia: 13 (8 x J2, 1 x G, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 X E1b, 1 x I2a1a2-M423, 1 X C1)
Macedonia: 1 (1 x G)

So we have 19 samples covering 7000 years. I think that when looking at this "evidence", everybody should rather reconsider his hypotheses.

Even if you assumed that I2a1a2-M423 came from "somewhere" with the Slavs, you still need to find out where that "somewhere" was because as you certainly know, finding I2a1a2-M423 in Europe is not very easy before the Christus era. We have a plenty of I2a1b1-M223 popping out almost everywhere, but I2a1a2-M423 (and I1a-M253) are almost nowhere to be found.

We don't want to spoil the thread with repititive informations but chronology of events are not put like you did, because various archeological sites preceding and what followed didn't have much to do, as a matter of note in Late Neolithic Croatia there is some more G2a and I2a found than you listed: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0247332

But, in this specific case the I2a2-Din was more than a decade put down boldly by Kenn Nordvedt (number one specialist regarding Y-DNA I and subclades) that it rose up with Slavic migrations and it's diversity lies somewhere in Ukraine/Polish border. I don't know the details how but looking at the bigger picture this is the quintessential lineage of the Southern Slavs which rose up to huge percentages in comparison with the Pre-Proto-Slavic R1a, a very good modern example for associating pre-Bronze Age non-IE lineages with post-Bronze Age IE expansions like J2b2-L283 = Illyrian-related and E-V13 = Thracian-related, and it's not only us holding the same opinion, a lot of Southern Slavs will say the same. You have the Viminacium paper full of Pre-Slavic Serbian samples and none of it has any I2a, now you have Pre-Slavic Roman Croatian samples and none of it has I2a yet again. Apply Boolean logic here and you can deduct where it leads all of it.

[mount123]

The correct nomenclature is I-Y3120. I-Y3120 is absent in pre-Medieval-Slavic migration Balkans. There are many up to date papers in regards to this topic.

The misdated sample they referenced has a strong Slavic autosomal profile, Slavic uniparentals, a mtDNA that formed in the 13th century and was not radiocarbon dated. The problem with that individual's statements (Centrum99) was that it did not really reflect any kind of expertise in population genetics. Someone who does not know how to analyze autosomal DNA and thinks it needs a lab to run autosomal coordinates (very likely does not even know what those are) and speaks of science is just laughable. Not to mention all of the problematic and racist ad hominems. This person also does not know any english which is a red flag for a "scientist".

I am just going to pin this comment again since it sums up the factual basis very well and shows the non existent expertise of this individual that has absolutely no clue about the autosomal analysis of the said sample or general aDNA samples from the Balkans.

Nevertheless it is a clear waste of time pointing this to someone out who does not know anything about that matter or generally population genetics.

#pseudoscience

[Centrum99]

I am just going to pin this comment again since it sums up the factual basis very well and shows the non existent expertise of this individual that has absolutely no clue about the autosomal analysis of the said sample or general aDNA samples from the Balkans.

Nevertheless it is a clear waste of time pointing this to someone out who does not know anything about that matter or generally population genetics.

#pseudoscience

And how should I quote this information, please? Mr. Mount from Albania, Eupedia Forum, 2022? Have you ever written any scientific paper? Do you think that I can use guesses of people from message boards as a serious source?

[Centrum99]

But, in this specific case the I2a2-Din was more than a decade put down boldly by Kenn Nordvedt (number one specialist regarding Y-DNA I and subclades) that it rose up with Slavic migrations and it's diversity lies somewhere in Ukraine/Polish border. I don't know the details how but looking at the bigger picture this is the quintessential lineage of the Southern Slavs which rose up to huge percentages in comparison with the Pre-Proto-Slavic R1a, a very good modern example for associating pre-Bronze Age non-IE lineages with post-Bronze Age IE expansions like J2b2-L283 = Illyrian-related and E-V13 = Thracian-related, and it's not only us holding the same opinion, a lot of Southern Slavs will say the same. You have the Viminacium paper full of Pre-Slavic Serbian samples and none of it has any I2a, now you have Pre-Slavic Roman Croatian samples and none of it has I2a yet again. Apply Boolean logic here and you can deduct where it leads all of it.

I don't think that it would be so simple. Dinaric people are not any "ordinary" European group. Together with Scandinavians, they have the most pronounced phenotype in Europe, and the evolution of such physical features requires some reproductive isolation. Such a population could not develop if it was "lurking" together with Slavs somewhere around the Carpathians. It's the result of a local development in the Dinaric Alps. And the only thing that we need to know is its dating. Even if we went downward from I2a1a2-M423 to I2a1a2b1a1a1c-PH908 (which is regarded as the "purest" Dinaric lineage), its branches converge ca. 1800 years ago.

Furthermore, it is not only about physical features but even about lifestyle. I wonder if all the Albanians here realize that Dinaric people share one important dietary custom with Scandinavians: The high reliance on milk in their diet. It was an inevitable evolutionary development in the limestone desert, where you basically have nothing to eat except for the meat and milk of domesticated animals. Such a pastoral population, roaming the mountains, would be basically archaeologically invisible because bones in the limestone soil desintegrate very quickly. And again: Is it realistic to assume that Slavic-speaking groups penetrating to the mountains would adapt to such a lifestyle that was so different from their agricultural way of subsistence? And there is another interesting thing to consider: The various Aromun groups in the Balkans, who also share this pastoral lifestyle and have a relatively high frequency of I-M170 (20-40%). Do you think that so many Slavs joined the Romanized shepherds in the mountains?

[mount123]

Edit: everything is already pointed out

[Centrum99]

I am going to pin this again. This individual does not seem to have any clue about the autosomal analysis of the said sample as already mentioned. Besides the racist ad hominems and terrible english it is further clearly not interested to look into it. This individual is spreading pseudo scientific ideas whilst not even being able to use the correct nomenclature when referring to a certain haplogroup.

This behaviour is in all entirety ludicrous and should be condemned, just as this pice of misinformation spread (supposedly "paper").

I think that you should move to some forum for frustrated and tearful individuals because it's more than obvious that you need an effective therapy.

[mount123]

I think that you should move to some forum for frustrated and tearful individuals because it's more than obvious that you need an effective therapy.

Where there is no expertise there is ad hominems. Very professional.

Have a good day.

[civitas]

[QUOTE=real expert;648855]Mapping the Mountains of Giants:Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal a Nucleus of Extraordinary Physical Stature in Europe ..... Majority of my ancestors were over 1.8 m men and over 1.71 m women. I am 1.92 m and I have grand-grand father, uncles, cousins, sons, between 1.9 m and 1.98 m height, not from Dalmatia.