Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal Extraordinary Physical Stature

Centrum99 said:
But these Albanian folks can't understand it somehow. .
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And where are you from? What type of folk are you that you try smuggle fake dating results to deceive people about this haplogroup presence in the region. You cant understand somehow that this is pathetic?
 
Johane Derite said:
Your paper is claiming that south slavic I is in the balkans since the bronze age. This is a false claim that was put in the paper either intentionally or due to negligence.
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This is a claim that was put in the paper based on the available evidence. (Yes, it's that simple!) Or do you want to claim that you know where this lineage came from? What evidence do we have for the presence or non-presence of I2a1a2-M423 in the Dinaric Alps? How many prehistoric Y DNA samples from the Dinaric Alps do we have at this moment?

Montenegro: 0
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 0
Albania: 0
Slovenia: 5 (2 x J2, 1 x R1b-U106, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 x I2a1b1-M223)
Coastal Croatia: 13 (8 x J2, 1 x G, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 X E1b, 1 x I2a1a2-M423, 1 X C1)
Macedonia: 1 (1 x G)

So we have 19 samples covering 7000 years. I think that when looking at this "evidence", everybody should rather reconsider his hypotheses.

Even if you assumed that I2a1a2-M423 came from "somewhere" with the Slavs, you still need to find out where that "somewhere" was because as you certainly know, finding I2a1a2-M423 in Europe is not very easy before the Christus era. We have a plenty of I2a1b1-M223 popping out almost everywhere, but I2a1a2-M423 (and I1a-M253) are almost nowhere to be found.
 
Centrum99 said:
This is a claim that was put in the paper based on the available evidence. (Yes, it's that simple!) Or do you want to claim that you know where this lineage came from? What evidence do we have for the presence or non-presence of I2a1a2-M423 in the Dinaric Alps? How many prehistoric Y DNA samples from the Dinaric Alps do we have at this moment?

Montenegro: 0
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 0
Albania: 0
Slovenia: 5 (2 x J2, 1 x R1b-U106, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 x I2a1b1-M223)
Coastal Croatia: 13 (8 x J2, 1 x G, 1 x R1b-S116, 1 X E1b, 1 x I2a1a2-M423, 1 X C1)
Macedonia: 1 (1 x G)

So we have 19 samples covering 7000 years. I think that when looking at this "evidence", everybody should rather reconsider his hypotheses.

Even if you assumed that I2a1a2-M423 came from "somewhere" with the Slavs, you still need to find out where that "somewhere" was because as you certainly know, finding I2a1a2-M423 in Europe is not very easy before the Christus era. We have a plenty of I2a1b1-M223 popping out almost everywhere, but I2a1a2-M423 (and I1a-M253) are almost nowhere to be found.
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We don't want to spoil the thread with repititive informations but chronology of events are not put like you did, because various archeological sites preceding and what followed didn't have much to do, as a matter of note in Late Neolithic Croatia there is some more G2a and I2a found than you listed: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0247332

But, in this specific case the I2a2-Din was more than a decade put down boldly by Kenn Nordvedt (number one specialist regarding Y-DNA I and subclades) that it rose up with Slavic migrations and it's diversity lies somewhere in Ukraine/Polish border. I don't know the details how but looking at the bigger picture this is the quintessential lineage of the Southern Slavs which rose up to huge percentages in comparison with the Pre-Proto-Slavic R1a, a very good modern example for associating pre-Bronze Age non-IE lineages with post-Bronze Age IE expansions like J2b2-L283 = Illyrian-related and E-V13 = Thracian-related, and it's not only us holding the same opinion, a lot of Southern Slavs will say the same. You have the Viminacium paper full of Pre-Slavic Serbian samples and none of it has any I2a, now you have Pre-Slavic Roman Croatian samples and none of it has I2a yet again. Apply Boolean logic here and you can deduct where it leads all of it.
 
mount123 said:
The correct nomenclature is I-Y3120. I-Y3120 is absent in pre-Medieval-Slavic migration Balkans. There are many up to date papers in regards to this topic.

The misdated sample they referenced has a strong Slavic autosomal profile, Slavic uniparentals, a mtDNA that formed in the 13th century and was not radiocarbon dated. The problem with that individual's statements (Centrum99) was that it did not really reflect any kind of expertise in population genetics. Someone who does not know how to analyze autosomal DNA and thinks it needs a lab to run autosomal coordinates (very likely does not even know what those are) and speaks of science is just laughable. Not to mention all of the problematic and racist ad hominems. This person also does not know any english which is a red flag for a "scientist".
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I am just going to pin this comment again since it sums up the factual basis very well and shows the non existent expertise of this individual that has absolutely no clue about the autosomal analysis of the said sample or general aDNA samples from the Balkans.

Nevertheless it is a clear waste of time pointing this to someone out who does not know anything about that matter or generally population genetics.

#pseudoscience
 
mount123 said:
I am just going to pin this comment again since it sums up the factual basis very well and shows the non existent expertise of this individual that has absolutely no clue about the autosomal analysis of the said sample or general aDNA samples from the Balkans.

Nevertheless it is a clear waste of time pointing this to someone out who does not know anything about that matter or generally population genetics.

#pseudoscience
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And how should I quote this information, please? Mr. Mount from Albania, Eupedia Forum, 2022? Have you ever written any scientific paper? Do you think that I can use guesses of people from message boards as a serious source?
 
Hawk said:
But, in this specific case the I2a2-Din was more than a decade put down boldly by Kenn Nordvedt (number one specialist regarding Y-DNA I and subclades) that it rose up with Slavic migrations and it's diversity lies somewhere in Ukraine/Polish border. I don't know the details how but looking at the bigger picture this is the quintessential lineage of the Southern Slavs which rose up to huge percentages in comparison with the Pre-Proto-Slavic R1a, a very good modern example for associating pre-Bronze Age non-IE lineages with post-Bronze Age IE expansions like J2b2-L283 = Illyrian-related and E-V13 = Thracian-related, and it's not only us holding the same opinion, a lot of Southern Slavs will say the same. You have the Viminacium paper full of Pre-Slavic Serbian samples and none of it has any I2a, now you have Pre-Slavic Roman Croatian samples and none of it has I2a yet again. Apply Boolean logic here and you can deduct where it leads all of it.
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I don't think that it would be so simple. Dinaric people are not any "ordinary" European group. Together with Scandinavians, they have the most pronounced phenotype in Europe, and the evolution of such physical features requires some reproductive isolation. Such a population could not develop if it was "lurking" together with Slavs somewhere around the Carpathians. It's the result of a local development in the Dinaric Alps. And the only thing that we need to know is its dating. Even if we went downward from I2a1a2-M423 to I2a1a2b1a1a1c-PH908 (which is regarded as the "purest" Dinaric lineage), its branches converge ca. 1800 years ago.

Furthermore, it is not only about physical features but even about lifestyle. I wonder if all the Albanians here realize that Dinaric people share one important dietary custom with Scandinavians: The high reliance on milk in their diet. It was an inevitable evolutionary development in the limestone desert, where you basically have nothing to eat except for the meat and milk of domesticated animals. Such a pastoral population, roaming the mountains, would be basically archaeologically invisible because bones in the limestone soil desintegrate very quickly. And again: Is it realistic to assume that Slavic-speaking groups penetrating to the mountains would adapt to such a lifestyle that was so different from their agricultural way of subsistence? And there is another interesting thing to consider: The various Aromun groups in the Balkans, who also share this pastoral lifestyle and have a relatively high frequency of I-M170 (20-40%). Do you think that so many Slavs joined the Romanized shepherds in the mountains?
 
Edit: everything is already pointed out
 
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mount123 said:
I am going to pin this again. This individual does not seem to have any clue about the autosomal analysis of the said sample as already mentioned. Besides the racist ad hominems and terrible english it is further clearly not interested to look into it. This individual is spreading pseudo scientific ideas whilst not even being able to use the correct nomenclature when referring to a certain haplogroup.

This behaviour is in all entirety ludicrous and should be condemned, just as this pice of misinformation spread (supposedly "paper").
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I think that you should move to some forum for frustrated and tearful individuals because it's more than obvious that you need an effective therapy.
 
Centrum99 said:
I think that you should move to some forum for frustrated and tearful individuals because it's more than obvious that you need an effective therapy.
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Where there is no expertise there is ad hominems. Very professional.

Have a good day.
 
real expert said:
Mapping the Mountains of Giants:Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal a Nucleus of Extraordinary Physical Stature in Europe ..... Majority of my ancestors were over 1.8 m men and over 1.71 m women. I am 1.92 m and I have grand-grand father, uncles, cousins, sons, between 1.9 m and 1.98 m height, not from Dalmatia.
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mount123 said:
Where there is no expertise there is ad hominems. Very professional.

Have a good day.
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My reactions are adequate to your scientific contributions on this forum.
 
Centrum99 said:
I don't think that it would be so simple. Dinaric people are not any "ordinary" European group. Together with Scandinavians, they have the most pronounced phenotype in Europe, and the evolution of such physical features requires some reproductive isolation. Such a population could not develop if it was "lurking" together with Slavs somewhere around the Carpathians. It's the result of a local development in the Dinaric Alps. And the only thing that we need to know is its dating. Even if we went downward from I2a1a2-M423 to I2a1a2b1a1a1c-PH908 (which is regarded as the "purest" Dinaric lineage), its branches converge ca. 1800 years ago.

Furthermore, it is not only about physical features but even about lifestyle. I wonder if all the Albanians here realize that Dinaric people share one important dietary custom with Scandinavians: The high reliance on milk in their diet. It was an inevitable evolutionary development in the limestone desert, where you basically have nothing to eat except for the meat and milk of domesticated animals. Such a pastoral population, roaming the mountains, would be basically archaeologically invisible because bones in the limestone soil desintegrate very quickly. And again: Is it realistic to assume that Slavic-speaking groups penetrating to the mountains would adapt to such a lifestyle that was so different from their agricultural way of subsistence? And there is another interesting thing to consider: The various Aromun groups in the Balkans, who also share this pastoral lifestyle and have a relatively high frequency of I-M170 (20-40%). Do you think that so many Slavs joined the Romanized shepherds in the mountains?
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You’re far from a scientist and your paper is a joke.

Not only you don’t understand genetics, you don’t even know anything about diets, prehistoric and modern. What are you trying to say with the high milk consumption? That it has a lot of protein and thus such people got taller?

The height of the Dinaric Alps is a local development and it is not related to haplogroup I.
 
mount123 said:
"Since the remarkable height of the Dinaric populations cannot be connected with any commonly known environmental factor, the most probable hypothesis is genetic and links these physical characteristics with the local founder effect of Y haplogroup I-M170."

How did this get through peer review??? This is pure pseudo science.

I get it but this is a "wannabe" scientific paper and not a commercial testing platform. This just shows how much propaganda runs in ex-Yugoslav countries' institutions. This is insane. They have done this multiple time but it is 2022 now.

Their references are absolute trash.
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I totally agree with you, it looks like a joke.
 
Quote: "However, the only variable that meaningfully explains Dinaric height as a whole is genetic—the frequencies of Y haplogroup (male lineage) I-M170."

The list of average height by country for men seems to roughly coincide with the list of average height for women:
https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php

Here're proportions of the average height of men in relation to the average height of women, by country (based on https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-height-by-country):

countrymeanHeightMalemeanHeightFemaleProportion
Puerto Rico179.4821163.05731.100730234
North Macedonia176.4252160.88431.096596747
Jordan174.839159.46241.096427747
Belgium179.0933163.40171.096030825
Iraq173.7937158.74871.09477243
Morocco176.3518161.18091.094123435
Tunisia176.8534161.68551.093811133
Lebanon178.9571163.67051.093398627
Honduras169.5905155.18311.092841295
Kuwait174.9625160.1021.092818953
Nicaragua169.9128155.62111.091836518
Bahrain172.7639158.29081.091433615
El Salvador170.6697156.38961.091311059
Turkey176.3558161.8021.089948208
Poland180.6864165.77611.089942398
Bosnia and Herzegovina182.474167.47041.089589563
Iran175.6229161.18371.089582259
Guatemala164.3575150.9141.089080536
Hong Kong174.8349160.61811.088513063
Mauritius173.0061158.94281.088480258
Ireland179.0394164.49691.088405921
Maldives167.8666154.28471.088031412
Colombia171.8529157.96371.08792653
Paraguay173.8062159.76221.08790565
Switzerland178.7319164.331.087640114
United Kingdom178.208163.93911.087037809
Spain176.1061162.02791.086887505
Armenia173.6667159.85021.086434049
Hungary176.5873162.54631.086381542
Ukraine180.976166.62271.086142524
France178.6049164.48861.085819321
Australia178.7742164.66571.085679653
Japan172.0628158.50371.085544375
Palestine175.0451161.27771.085364561
Costa Rica174.0414160.35771.085332354
Canada178.7496164.72991.085107197
Libya176.3925162.56171.085080311
Egypt174.5695160.88451.085061022
Kazakhstan175.4969161.74461.085024786
Germany180.2812166.17731.084872603
Israel175.9836162.22251.084828553
Nigeria171.5505158.13731.084819963
Finland180.5694166.47511.084663112
Chile172.8759159.41771.08442099
United Arab Emirates174.0773160.53031.084389053
Venezuela173.5337160.0371.084334873
Norway180.4752166.44831.084271813
Argentina174.755161.22041.083950914
Cuba173.5584160.13491.083826199
Estonia182.7907168.66281.083764173
Oman171.6956158.4351.083697415
Croatia180.7589166.80311.083666311
North Korea174.6881161.21751.083555445
United States176.9373163.31191.083431765
Dominican Republic174.6498161.20941.08337231
Bangladesh165.0815152.37761.083371178
Slovakia181.0155167.12281.083128693
Sweden180.4567166.67391.082693211
Seychelles175.8976162.46561.082675963
Eritrea170.6044157.58031.08265056
Slovenia180.9774167.19761.082416255
Brazil175.7295162.4111.082004913
Bermuda179.7191166.11011.081927589
Portugal174.3709161.22711.081523516
Luxembourg178.4614165.0691.081132133
Pakistan167.3251154.77061.081116827
Greece179.2598165.81311.081095523
Bolivia168.102155.57521.08051926
Mali175.0154161.98921.080414003
Andorra178.8426165.53391.080398637
Peru166.7506154.38721.080080473
Taiwan173.5287160.69531.079861701
Romania177.8235164.73081.079479369
Dominica180.1526166.88851.079478814
Afghanistan168.4952156.11311.079314933
New Zealand177.7187164.661.079307057
Antigua and Barbuda178.8353165.72371.079117229
Burundi167.3367155.07511.079068787
Madagascar165.1619153.06381.07903959
Uruguay174.3233161.55851.079010389
Guyana172.1502159.56871.078846917
Netherlands183.7824170.36121.078780849
Czech Republic181.1866167.96351.078726033
DR Congo168.5966156.30071.078668234
Nepal164.3638152.3891.078580475
Montenegro183.3022169.96091.078496289
Belize170.5235158.12011.078442905
Mexico170.2864157.90191.078431608
Republic of the Congo171.2319158.77991.078423025
Sri Lanka168.0746155.87581.078259743
Azerbaijan174.0024161.37491.078249468
Algeria175.0402162.34721.078184287
Qatar173.2724160.71571.07812989
Lithuania180.7233167.62991.078108977
Iceland182.1016168.91351.078076057
Georgia175.9786163.2391.078042625
Italy174.4247161.81021.077958621
Ecuador167.3197155.24891.077751276
Moldova175.5892162.96121.077490838
Myanmar166.6975154.7141.077455822
Trinidad and Tobago176.0333163.37981.077448375
Malaysia169.2035157.06371.077292207
Greenland173.8438161.39561.077128497
Indonesia166.2577154.35521.077111105
Jamaica176.9742164.31931.077014082
Syria171.642159.37951.076939004
Bhutan167.0474155.15261.076665167
Grenada178.6999165.98871.076578707
Thailand171.6112159.41771.076487743
Cyprus172.7486160.55291.075960634
Panama170.1902158.18651.075883214
Singapore173.4965161.30471.075582423
Suriname174.5144162.26391.075497384
South Korea175.5219163.22541.075334476
Guinea170.6992158.75221.07525565
Senegal176.1772163.92411.074748618
China175.6609163.46411.074614548
Saudi Arabia170.6655158.83771.074464689
Nauru169.5698157.82211.074436343
Ethiopia168.8435157.15131.074400912
Serbia180.7387168.28511.074002987
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines177.4939165.30271.073750761
Russia176.649164.51741.073740528
Brunei166.3108154.89751.073682919
Denmark181.8927169.47061.07329944
Latvia181.1711168.80661.073246544
Cameroon172.1273160.41121.073037918
Sudan172.0736160.36171.073034272
Albania174.0708162.22861.072996993
India166.4953155.17821.072929703
Haiti172.2291160.5751.0725773
Ghana170.3047158.85511.072075747
Philippines165.2327154.14421.071935889
Kyrgyzstan171.6648160.20191.071552834
Lesotho167.9244156.72081.071487639
Comoros167.7249156.53891.071458277
Somalia171.2174159.85731.071064005
Turkmenistan174.3726162.82711.070906501
French Polynesia178.3164166.51871.0708491
Belarus178.6913166.92861.070465456
Malta174.3768162.95051.070121295
South Africa169.6258158.57871.069663202
Palau170.6244159.51761.069627427
Austria178.5244166.92671.069477801
Togo170.1359159.12941.06916698
Kenya170.4553159.43381.069129005
Barbados177.0284165.66381.068600382
Cambodia165.3497154.74951.06849909
Djibouti170.7671159.8241.068469692
Botswana173.1562162.0621.068456517
Marshall Islands165.2644154.75731.067894051
Zimbabwe170.6858159.84911.067793313
Mongolia170.672159.89351.067410495
Saint Kitts and Nevis173.7117162.78241.067140551
Bahamas174.3971163.46051.066906684
Uzbekistan170.9422160.28831.06646711
Vietnam168.8948158.42571.066082081
Sao Tome and Principe170.37159.81051.066075133
Eswatini169.4059158.92141.065972865
Saint Lucia176.4339165.52451.065908068
Cook Islands178.323167.30861.065832838
Angola168.4642158.09691.065575606
Burkina Faso171.8936161.32611.06550397
Zambia167.6156157.31521.06547619
Niger170.2606159.81491.06536124
Gabon170.4815160.04521.065208454
Tajikistan168.4313158.12181.065199738
Samoa174.4168163.8161.064711628
Uganda168.736158.5281.06439241
Tanzania166.9789156.88631.064330665
Equatorial Guinea168.1773158.04961.064079251
Benin168.4403158.40041.063383047
Laos162.7806153.09911.063236819
Yemen164.4164154.75611.062422741
Micronesia169.5719159.65851.062091276
Malawi165.6751156.1411.061060836
Niue177.1926167.03231.060828355
Ivory Coast168.2335158.65241.060390514
Tokelau176.0559166.07541.060096197
Chad171.8385162.12421.059918877
Guinea-Bissau168.1699158.71941.059542186
Rwanda166.0232156.71931.059366651
Namibia169.7457160.25611.059215219
Fiji173.9764164.28151.059013949
Central African Republic169.0104159.6511.058624124
Bulgaria174.1663164.57641.058270202
Sierra Leone166.4285157.33561.057793023
Mozambique164.2968155.4211.057108113
Liberia165.4756156.54141.057072442
American Samoa177.0945167.55151.056955623
Kiribati170.0908161.03991.056202842
Tonga175.1131166.07941.054393862
Vanuatu168.294160.48361.048667901
Timor-Leste160.1305152.71231.04857631
Tuvalu171.2982163.57011.04724641
Gambia168.355161.72821.04097492
Solomon Islands163.0694156.78881.040057708
Papua New Guinea163.098156.89451.039539308
Mauritania165.5444160.06171.034253666

By the way, the most frequent haplogroup among Sardinians, the shortest people in Europe, is the I-M170.

I don't see a cause-and-effect relationship.
 
Dushman said:
You’re far from a scientist and your paper is a joke.

Not only you don’t understand genetics, you don’t even know anything about diets, prehistoric and modern. What are you trying to say with the high milk consumption? That it has a lot of protein and thus such people got taller?

The height of the Dinaric Alps is a local development and it is not related to haplogroup I.
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Rather, this whole thread is a joke. A waste of the internet space. I could finish it very quickly, if I could post www links or insert images, but I need another eight posts.

In the meantime, you can think over the report of Konstantinos Porphyrogenitos (De Administrando Imperio, chapters 30-32), who relates about the origin of Croats and Serbs. Where do you think they came from?

(30)...But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possession of that land. After they had fought one another for some years, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and the remainder they compelled to be subject to them. And so from that time this land was possessed by the Croats, and there are still in Croatia some who are of Avar descent and are recognized as Avars. The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are now called Belocroats, that is, white Croats, and have their own prince. They are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks.


(31)... The Croats who now live in the region of Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized Croats, also called „white“, who live beyond Turkey (=Hungary) and next to Francia, and have for Slav neighbours the unbaptized Serbs... Those same Croats arrived to claim the protection of the emperor of the Romans Heraclius before the Serbs claimed the protection of the same emperor Heraclius, at that time when the Avars had fought and expelled from those parts the Romani whom the emperor Diocletian had brought from Rome and settled there, and who were therefore called „Romani“ from their having been translated from Rome to those countries, I mean, to those now called Croatia and Serbia. These same Romani having been expelled by the Avars in the days of this same emperor of the Romans Heraclius, their countries were made desolate. And so, by command of the emperor Heraclius these same Croats defeated and expelled the Avars from those parts, and by mandate of Heraclius, the emperor they settled down in that same territory of the Avars, where they now dwell.

(32) The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called „white“, who live beyond Turkey (=Hungary) in a place called by them Boiki (Bohemia?), where their neighbours is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called „white“. In this place,then, these Serbs aso originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time acquired this demonination... Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then holding Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in. And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-caled Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans...


So much for the legends that Slavs brought I2a1a2-M423 to the Western Balkans. Yes, you read correctly: Serbs came from today's Eastern Germany (where their relatives live until now) and Croats originate from "White Croatia", which is placed to northeastern Bohemia and/or southern Poland. The Byzantine empire needed recruits because the Balkan provinces were recuperating from the consequences of the Justinianic plague (541-549 AD). The depopulated Balkan area was an easy target for Slavic raids starting after 550 AD, and then for the Avars (after 567). This is why Herakleios (ruled 610-641) was eager to accept Slavs in the Balkans. But we know that it did not pay in the long run, of course...
 
Regio X said:
Quote: "However, the only variable that meaningfully explains Dinaric height as a whole is genetic—the frequencies of Y haplogroup (male lineage) I-M170."

The list of average height by country for men seems to roughly coincide with the list of average height for women:

Here're proportions of the average height of men in relation to the average height of women, by country

countrymeanHeightMalemeanHeightFemaleProportion
Puerto Rico179.4821163.05731.100730234
North Macedonia176.4252160.88431.096596747
Jordan174.839159.46241.096427747
Belgium179.0933163.40171.096030825
Iraq173.7937158.74871.09477243
Morocco176.3518161.18091.094123435
Tunisia176.8534161.68551.093811133
Lebanon178.9571163.67051.093398627
Honduras169.5905155.18311.092841295
Kuwait174.9625160.1021.092818953
Nicaragua169.9128155.62111.091836518
Bahrain172.7639158.29081.091433615
El Salvador170.6697156.38961.091311059
Turkey176.3558161.8021.089948208
Poland180.6864165.77611.089942398
Bosnia and Herzegovina182.474167.47041.089589563
Iran175.6229161.18371.089582259
Guatemala164.3575150.9141.089080536
Hong Kong174.8349160.61811.088513063
Mauritius173.0061158.94281.088480258
Ireland179.0394164.49691.088405921
Maldives167.8666154.28471.088031412
Colombia171.8529157.96371.08792653
Paraguay173.8062159.76221.08790565
Switzerland178.7319164.331.087640114
United Kingdom178.208163.93911.087037809
Spain176.1061162.02791.086887505
Armenia173.6667159.85021.086434049
Hungary176.5873162.54631.086381542
Ukraine180.976166.62271.086142524
France178.6049164.48861.085819321
Australia178.7742164.66571.085679653
Japan172.0628158.50371.085544375
Palestine175.0451161.27771.085364561
Costa Rica174.0414160.35771.085332354
Canada178.7496164.72991.085107197
Libya176.3925162.56171.085080311
Egypt174.5695160.88451.085061022
Kazakhstan175.4969161.74461.085024786
Germany180.2812166.17731.084872603
Israel175.9836162.22251.084828553
Nigeria171.5505158.13731.084819963
Finland180.5694166.47511.084663112
Chile172.8759159.41771.08442099
United Arab Emirates174.0773160.53031.084389053
Venezuela173.5337160.0371.084334873
Norway180.4752166.44831.084271813
Argentina174.755161.22041.083950914
Cuba173.5584160.13491.083826199
Estonia182.7907168.66281.083764173
Oman171.6956158.4351.083697415
Croatia180.7589166.80311.083666311
North Korea174.6881161.21751.083555445
United States176.9373163.31191.083431765
Dominican Republic174.6498161.20941.08337231
Bangladesh165.0815152.37761.083371178
Slovakia181.0155167.12281.083128693
Sweden180.4567166.67391.082693211
Seychelles175.8976162.46561.082675963
Eritrea170.6044157.58031.08265056
Slovenia180.9774167.19761.082416255
Brazil175.7295162.4111.082004913
Bermuda179.7191166.11011.081927589
Portugal174.3709161.22711.081523516
Luxembourg178.4614165.0691.081132133
Pakistan167.3251154.77061.081116827
Greece179.2598165.81311.081095523
Bolivia168.102155.57521.08051926
Mali175.0154161.98921.080414003
Andorra178.8426165.53391.080398637
Peru166.7506154.38721.080080473
Taiwan173.5287160.69531.079861701
Romania177.8235164.73081.079479369
Dominica180.1526166.88851.079478814
Afghanistan168.4952156.11311.079314933
New Zealand177.7187164.661.079307057
Antigua and Barbuda178.8353165.72371.079117229
Burundi167.3367155.07511.079068787
Madagascar165.1619153.06381.07903959
Uruguay174.3233161.55851.079010389
Guyana172.1502159.56871.078846917
Netherlands183.7824170.36121.078780849
Czech Republic181.1866167.96351.078726033
DR Congo168.5966156.30071.078668234
Nepal164.3638152.3891.078580475
Montenegro183.3022169.96091.078496289
Belize170.5235158.12011.078442905
Mexico170.2864157.90191.078431608
Republic of the Congo171.2319158.77991.078423025
Sri Lanka168.0746155.87581.078259743
Azerbaijan174.0024161.37491.078249468
Algeria175.0402162.34721.078184287
Qatar173.2724160.71571.07812989
Lithuania180.7233167.62991.078108977
Iceland182.1016168.91351.078076057
Georgia175.9786163.2391.078042625
Italy174.4247161.81021.077958621
Ecuador167.3197155.24891.077751276
Moldova175.5892162.96121.077490838
Myanmar166.6975154.7141.077455822
Trinidad and Tobago176.0333163.37981.077448375
Malaysia169.2035157.06371.077292207
Greenland173.8438161.39561.077128497
Indonesia166.2577154.35521.077111105
Jamaica176.9742164.31931.077014082
Syria171.642159.37951.076939004
Bhutan167.0474155.15261.076665167
Grenada178.6999165.98871.076578707
Thailand171.6112159.41771.076487743
Cyprus172.7486160.55291.075960634
Panama170.1902158.18651.075883214
Singapore173.4965161.30471.075582423
Suriname174.5144162.26391.075497384
South Korea175.5219163.22541.075334476
Guinea170.6992158.75221.07525565
Senegal176.1772163.92411.074748618
China175.6609163.46411.074614548
Saudi Arabia170.6655158.83771.074464689
Nauru169.5698157.82211.074436343
Ethiopia168.8435157.15131.074400912
Serbia180.7387168.28511.074002987
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines177.4939165.30271.073750761
Russia176.649164.51741.073740528
Brunei166.3108154.89751.073682919
Denmark181.8927169.47061.07329944
Latvia181.1711168.80661.073246544
Cameroon172.1273160.41121.073037918
Sudan172.0736160.36171.073034272
Albania174.0708162.22861.072996993
India166.4953155.17821.072929703
Haiti172.2291160.5751.0725773
Ghana170.3047158.85511.072075747
Philippines165.2327154.14421.071935889
Kyrgyzstan171.6648160.20191.071552834
Lesotho167.9244156.72081.071487639
Comoros167.7249156.53891.071458277
Somalia171.2174159.85731.071064005
Turkmenistan174.3726162.82711.070906501
French Polynesia178.3164166.51871.0708491
Belarus178.6913166.92861.070465456
Malta174.3768162.95051.070121295
South Africa169.6258158.57871.069663202
Palau170.6244159.51761.069627427
Austria178.5244166.92671.069477801
Togo170.1359159.12941.06916698
Kenya170.4553159.43381.069129005
Barbados177.0284165.66381.068600382
Cambodia165.3497154.74951.06849909
Djibouti170.7671159.8241.068469692
Botswana173.1562162.0621.068456517
Marshall Islands165.2644154.75731.067894051
Zimbabwe170.6858159.84911.067793313
Mongolia170.672159.89351.067410495
Saint Kitts and Nevis173.7117162.78241.067140551
Bahamas174.3971163.46051.066906684
Uzbekistan170.9422160.28831.06646711
Vietnam168.8948158.42571.066082081
Sao Tome and Principe170.37159.81051.066075133
Eswatini169.4059158.92141.065972865
Saint Lucia176.4339165.52451.065908068
Cook Islands178.323167.30861.065832838
Angola168.4642158.09691.065575606
Burkina Faso171.8936161.32611.06550397
Zambia167.6156157.31521.06547619
Niger170.2606159.81491.06536124
Gabon170.4815160.04521.065208454
Tajikistan168.4313158.12181.065199738
Samoa174.4168163.8161.064711628
Uganda168.736158.5281.06439241
Tanzania166.9789156.88631.064330665
Equatorial Guinea168.1773158.04961.064079251
Benin168.4403158.40041.063383047
Laos162.7806153.09911.063236819
Yemen164.4164154.75611.062422741
Micronesia169.5719159.65851.062091276
Malawi165.6751156.1411.061060836
Niue177.1926167.03231.060828355
Ivory Coast168.2335158.65241.060390514
Tokelau176.0559166.07541.060096197
Chad171.8385162.12421.059918877
Guinea-Bissau168.1699158.71941.059542186
Rwanda166.0232156.71931.059366651
Namibia169.7457160.25611.059215219
Fiji173.9764164.28151.059013949
Central African Republic169.0104159.6511.058624124
Bulgaria174.1663164.57641.058270202
Sierra Leone166.4285157.33561.057793023
Mozambique164.2968155.4211.057108113
Liberia165.4756156.54141.057072442
American Samoa177.0945167.55151.056955623
Kiribati170.0908161.03991.056202842
Tonga175.1131166.07941.054393862
Vanuatu168.294160.48361.048667901
Timor-Leste160.1305152.71231.04857631
Tuvalu171.2982163.57011.04724641
Gambia168.355161.72821.04097492
Solomon Islands163.0694156.78881.040057708
Papua New Guinea163.098156.89451.039539308
Mauritania165.5444160.06171.034253666

By the way, the most frequent haplogroup among Sardinians, the shortest people in Europe, is the I-M170.

I don't see a cause-and-effect relationship.
Click to expand...

It is understandable that you can't see it because I need another seven posts to be able to insert pictures. Btw, many of the data you listed are completely off the reality. This is a rather "fun" internet source.

Sardinians have about 40% I-M170 (mainly I2a1a1a-M26, which was picked up by Anatolian farmers during their migration through the Mediterranean), but they are the shortest in Europe, with only 171 cm in men (Pes, G. M. et al. The Rise and Fall of the Secular Trend in Body Height in Sardinia: An Age-Period-Cohort Analysis." Biomedical and Environmental Sciences 33.3 (2020): 183-190.) But it is hardly a coincidence that such an exception occurs on an island, which was isolated from the rest of Europe (Pes, G. M., et al. "Why were Sardinians the shortest Europeans? A journey through genes, infections, nutrition, and sex." American Journal of Physical Anthropology 163.1 (2017): 3-13.) You can find a similar anomaly in Icelanders, who strikingly differ from their mother populations (Norwegians and Scottish Gaels) - but in the opposite direction than Sardinians do.
 
Centrum99 said:
Rather, this whole thread is a joke. A waste of the internet space. I could finish it very quickly, if I could post www links or insert images, but I need another eight posts.

In the meantime, you can think over the report of Konstantinos Porphyrogenitos (De Administrando Imperio, chapters 30-32), who relates about the origin of Croats and Serbs. Where do you think they came from?

(30)...But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possession of that land. After they had fought one another for some years, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and the remainder they compelled to be subject to them. And so from that time this land was possessed by the Croats, and there are still in Croatia some who are of Avar descent and are recognized as Avars. The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are now called Belocroats, that is, white Croats, and have their own prince. They are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks.


(31)... The Croats who now live in the region of Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized Croats, also called „white“, who live beyond Turkey (=Hungary) and next to Francia, and have for Slav neighbours the unbaptized Serbs... Those same Croats arrived to claim the protection of the emperor of the Romans Heraclius before the Serbs claimed the protection of the same emperor Heraclius, at that time when the Avars had fought and expelled from those parts the Romani whom the emperor Diocletian had brought from Rome and settled there, and who were therefore called „Romani“ from their having been translated from Rome to those countries, I mean, to those now called Croatia and Serbia. These same Romani having been expelled by the Avars in the days of this same emperor of the Romans Heraclius, their countries were made desolate. And so, by command of the emperor Heraclius these same Croats defeated and expelled the Avars from those parts, and by mandate of Heraclius, the emperor they settled down in that same territory of the Avars, where they now dwell.

(32) The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called „white“, who live beyond Turkey (=Hungary) in a place called by them Boiki (Bohemia?), where their neighbours is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called „white“. In this place,then, these Serbs aso originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time acquired this demonination... Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then holding Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in. And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-caled Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans...


So much for the legends that Slavs brought I2a1a2-M423 to the Western Balkans. Yes, you read correctly: Serbs came from today's Eastern Germany (where their relatives live until now) and Croats originate from "White Croatia", which is placed to northeastern Bohemia and/or southern Poland. The Byzantine empire needed recruits because the Balkan provinces were recuperating from the consequences of the Justinianic plague (541-549 AD). The depopulated Balkan area was an easy target for Slavic raids starting after 550 AD, and then for the Avars (after 567). This is why Herakleios (ruled 610-641) was eager to accept Slavs in the Balkans. But we know that it did not pay in the long run, of course...
Click to expand...
You must be very young and inexperienced too. I don’t understand how you don’t understand that all these stories you posted are irrelevant to the topic.

First of all, you imply that Slavs didn’t bring I2a-Din to the Balkans/Dalmatia, then you clearly say that it originates in Eastern Germany/Southern Poland and it came with Croats and Serbs. Are you saying that Serbs and Croats did
not come as Slavs to the Balkans?

Secondly, nobody here is insisting on the Proto-Slavic origin of I2a-Din but we can at least say that it was incorporated into the Slavic ethnos pretty early and spread around with them as well.

Thirdly and most importantly, you still do not understand that all the “not so cool” members here have a problem with the clearly Medieval Slavic sample being erroneously listed as a Bronze Age sample.

And what surprises me personally is how you and your team fail to understand that modern I2a Dalmatians/Herzegovinians/Montenegrins are autosomally half local, yet the closest populations to the locals are Albanians whom you report as 174-175cm tall, and yet these modern mixed I2a men are 185cm tall or more.

This indirectly implies that the pure I2a men in White Croatia and White Serbia were 2m on average and the 50% local Balkan admixture brought their average down to 185cm. Speaking roughly here not getting specific about numbers just to put my point across.

So just come clean and tell us what you believe in? What race or linguistic group did these I2a giants belong to if not Slavic? An Eastern Germanic group? Scythian? Local Illyrians? Pannonians? Help us out understand your confusing paper which is entirely based on an error.
 
Regio X said:
Quote: "However, the only variable that meaningfully explains Dinaric height as a whole is genetic—the frequencies of Y haplogroup (male lineage) I-M170."

The list of average height by country for men seems to roughly coincide with the list of average height for women:
https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php

Here're proportions of the average height of men in relation to the average height of women, by country (based on https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-height-by-country):

countrymeanHeightMalemeanHeightFemaleProportion
Puerto Rico179.4821163.05731.100730234
North Macedonia176.4252160.88431.096596747
Jordan174.839159.46241.096427747
Belgium179.0933163.40171.096030825
Iraq173.7937158.74871.09477243
Morocco176.3518161.18091.094123435
Tunisia176.8534161.68551.093811133
Lebanon178.9571163.67051.093398627
Honduras169.5905155.18311.092841295
Kuwait174.9625160.1021.092818953
Nicaragua169.9128155.62111.091836518
Bahrain172.7639158.29081.091433615
El Salvador170.6697156.38961.091311059
Turkey176.3558161.8021.089948208
Poland180.6864165.77611.089942398
Bosnia and Herzegovina182.474167.47041.089589563
Iran175.6229161.18371.089582259
Guatemala164.3575150.9141.089080536
Hong Kong174.8349160.61811.088513063
Mauritius173.0061158.94281.088480258
Ireland179.0394164.49691.088405921
Maldives167.8666154.28471.088031412
Colombia171.8529157.96371.08792653
Paraguay173.8062159.76221.08790565
Switzerland178.7319164.331.087640114
United Kingdom178.208163.93911.087037809
Spain176.1061162.02791.086887505
Armenia173.6667159.85021.086434049
Hungary176.5873162.54631.086381542
Ukraine180.976166.62271.086142524
France178.6049164.48861.085819321
Australia178.7742164.66571.085679653
Japan172.0628158.50371.085544375
Palestine175.0451161.27771.085364561
Costa Rica174.0414160.35771.085332354
Canada178.7496164.72991.085107197
Libya176.3925162.56171.085080311
Egypt174.5695160.88451.085061022
Kazakhstan175.4969161.74461.085024786
Germany180.2812166.17731.084872603
Israel175.9836162.22251.084828553
Nigeria171.5505158.13731.084819963
Finland180.5694166.47511.084663112
Chile172.8759159.41771.08442099
United Arab Emirates174.0773160.53031.084389053
Venezuela173.5337160.0371.084334873
Norway180.4752166.44831.084271813
Argentina174.755161.22041.083950914
Cuba173.5584160.13491.083826199
Estonia182.7907168.66281.083764173
Oman171.6956158.4351.083697415
Croatia180.7589166.80311.083666311
North Korea174.6881161.21751.083555445
United States176.9373163.31191.083431765
Dominican Republic174.6498161.20941.08337231
Bangladesh165.0815152.37761.083371178
Slovakia181.0155167.12281.083128693
Sweden180.4567166.67391.082693211
Seychelles175.8976162.46561.082675963
Eritrea170.6044157.58031.08265056
Slovenia180.9774167.19761.082416255
Brazil175.7295162.4111.082004913
Bermuda179.7191166.11011.081927589
Portugal174.3709161.22711.081523516
Luxembourg178.4614165.0691.081132133
Pakistan167.3251154.77061.081116827
Greece179.2598165.81311.081095523
Bolivia168.102155.57521.08051926
Mali175.0154161.98921.080414003
Andorra178.8426165.53391.080398637
Peru166.7506154.38721.080080473
Taiwan173.5287160.69531.079861701
Romania177.8235164.73081.079479369
Dominica180.1526166.88851.079478814
Afghanistan168.4952156.11311.079314933
New Zealand177.7187164.661.079307057
Antigua and Barbuda178.8353165.72371.079117229
Burundi167.3367155.07511.079068787
Madagascar165.1619153.06381.07903959
Uruguay174.3233161.55851.079010389
Guyana172.1502159.56871.078846917
Netherlands183.7824170.36121.078780849
Czech Republic181.1866167.96351.078726033
DR Congo168.5966156.30071.078668234
Nepal164.3638152.3891.078580475
Montenegro183.3022169.96091.078496289
Belize170.5235158.12011.078442905
Mexico170.2864157.90191.078431608
Republic of the Congo171.2319158.77991.078423025
Sri Lanka168.0746155.87581.078259743
Azerbaijan174.0024161.37491.078249468
Algeria175.0402162.34721.078184287
Qatar173.2724160.71571.07812989
Lithuania180.7233167.62991.078108977
Iceland182.1016168.91351.078076057
Georgia175.9786163.2391.078042625
Italy174.4247161.81021.077958621
Ecuador167.3197155.24891.077751276
Moldova175.5892162.96121.077490838
Myanmar166.6975154.7141.077455822
Trinidad and Tobago176.0333163.37981.077448375
Malaysia169.2035157.06371.077292207
Greenland173.8438161.39561.077128497
Indonesia166.2577154.35521.077111105
Jamaica176.9742164.31931.077014082
Syria171.642159.37951.076939004
Bhutan167.0474155.15261.076665167
Grenada178.6999165.98871.076578707
Thailand171.6112159.41771.076487743
Cyprus172.7486160.55291.075960634
Panama170.1902158.18651.075883214
Singapore173.4965161.30471.075582423
Suriname174.5144162.26391.075497384
South Korea175.5219163.22541.075334476
Guinea170.6992158.75221.07525565
Senegal176.1772163.92411.074748618
China175.6609163.46411.074614548
Saudi Arabia170.6655158.83771.074464689
Nauru169.5698157.82211.074436343
Ethiopia168.8435157.15131.074400912
Serbia180.7387168.28511.074002987
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines177.4939165.30271.073750761
Russia176.649164.51741.073740528
Brunei166.3108154.89751.073682919
Denmark181.8927169.47061.07329944
Latvia181.1711168.80661.073246544
Cameroon172.1273160.41121.073037918
Sudan172.0736160.36171.073034272
Albania174.0708162.22861.072996993
India166.4953155.17821.072929703
Haiti172.2291160.5751.0725773
Ghana170.3047158.85511.072075747
Philippines165.2327154.14421.071935889
Kyrgyzstan171.6648160.20191.071552834
Lesotho167.9244156.72081.071487639
Comoros167.7249156.53891.071458277
Somalia171.2174159.85731.071064005
Turkmenistan174.3726162.82711.070906501
French Polynesia178.3164166.51871.0708491
Belarus178.6913166.92861.070465456
Malta174.3768162.95051.070121295
South Africa169.6258158.57871.069663202
Palau170.6244159.51761.069627427
Austria178.5244166.92671.069477801
Togo170.1359159.12941.06916698
Kenya170.4553159.43381.069129005
Barbados177.0284165.66381.068600382
Cambodia165.3497154.74951.06849909
Djibouti170.7671159.8241.068469692
Botswana173.1562162.0621.068456517
Marshall Islands165.2644154.75731.067894051
Zimbabwe170.6858159.84911.067793313
Mongolia170.672159.89351.067410495
Saint Kitts and Nevis173.7117162.78241.067140551
Bahamas174.3971163.46051.066906684
Uzbekistan170.9422160.28831.06646711
Vietnam168.8948158.42571.066082081
Sao Tome and Principe170.37159.81051.066075133
Eswatini169.4059158.92141.065972865
Saint Lucia176.4339165.52451.065908068
Cook Islands178.323167.30861.065832838
Angola168.4642158.09691.065575606
Burkina Faso171.8936161.32611.06550397
Zambia167.6156157.31521.06547619
Niger170.2606159.81491.06536124
Gabon170.4815160.04521.065208454
Tajikistan168.4313158.12181.065199738
Samoa174.4168163.8161.064711628
Uganda168.736158.5281.06439241
Tanzania166.9789156.88631.064330665
Equatorial Guinea168.1773158.04961.064079251
Benin168.4403158.40041.063383047
Laos162.7806153.09911.063236819
Yemen164.4164154.75611.062422741
Micronesia169.5719159.65851.062091276
Malawi165.6751156.1411.061060836
Niue177.1926167.03231.060828355
Ivory Coast168.2335158.65241.060390514
Tokelau176.0559166.07541.060096197
Chad171.8385162.12421.059918877
Guinea-Bissau168.1699158.71941.059542186
Rwanda166.0232156.71931.059366651
Namibia169.7457160.25611.059215219
Fiji173.9764164.28151.059013949
Central African Republic169.0104159.6511.058624124
Bulgaria174.1663164.57641.058270202
Sierra Leone166.4285157.33561.057793023
Mozambique164.2968155.4211.057108113
Liberia165.4756156.54141.057072442
American Samoa177.0945167.55151.056955623
Kiribati170.0908161.03991.056202842
Tonga175.1131166.07941.054393862
Vanuatu168.294160.48361.048667901
Timor-Leste160.1305152.71231.04857631
Tuvalu171.2982163.57011.04724641
Gambia168.355161.72821.04097492
Solomon Islands163.0694156.78881.040057708
Papua New Guinea163.098156.89451.039539308
Mauritania165.5444160.06171.034253666

By the way, the most frequent haplogroup among Sardinians, the shortest people in Europe, is the I-M170.

I don't see a cause-and-effect relationship.
Click to expand...

I doubt these states can be compared one to another, I doubt they have been made in the same condition of seriousness and exactly for the same generations... And the newest ones in developped countries with heavy immigration have surely been made without discrimination of origin, if we want to compare them with past.
 
Dushman said:
You must be very young and inexperienced too. I don’t understand how you don’t understand that all these stories you posted are irrelevant to the topic.

First of all, you imply that Slavs didn’t bring I2a-Din to the Balkans/Dalmatia, then you clearly say that it originates in Eastern Germany/Southern Poland and it came with Croats and Serbs. Are you saying that Serbs and Croats did not come as Slavs to the Balkans?
Click to expand...

Can someone find any logic in this post? Are all the Albanian guys here on some drugs or what? Or they simply don't understand a written English text? Luckily, we have been only six posts from ending this senseless debate.
 
Centrum99 said:
Can someone find any logic in this post? Are all the Albanian guys here on some drugs or what? Or they simply don't understand a written English text? Luckily, we have been only six posts from ending this senseless debate.
Click to expand...
Dude, not only you’re childish, unprofessional, and untalented, but even your written English is embarrassing for someone who’s goal is to post scientific papers. Your paper is that of an average university student who’s planning to get a C or 7.5/10 at best.

Answer the questions and the points made and leave the insults about Albanians. It’s not 1991 when we could get triggered, we’re used to insults by now.

In 6 posts you’re probably going to post some irrelevant Google image and become laughing stock.

Get it through your brain: THE I2a-Din SAMPLE IS NOT A BRONZE AGE ONE BUT MEDIEVAL.

You wrote an entire paper and didn’t even double check your sources. In Albania we say: “they sold you soap for cheese”.
 
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