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Thread: Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal Extraordinary Physical Stature

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    This stereotyping of smaller, less known populations is honestly annoying as hell. Even some Albanians here are pretending that southern Albanians are "short" based on random nonsense. I'm a giant tall ass dude and even our PM's family also comes from southern Albania and he's > 2 meters tall.

    I guess we're are all just random, statistical anomalies and in reality most are all 5 feet tall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Mountainous areas like northern Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro limited contact between adjoining populations leading to inbreeding, founder effects, genetic drift so that even though you started with very similar populations in the beginning you end with a substantially different ones. Flat, farming areas on the other hand are ripe for intermixing.
    I agree it's a very reasonable possibility too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    This stereotyping of smaller, less known populations is honestly annoying as hell. Even some Albanians here are pretending that southern Albanians are "short" based on random nonsense. I'm a giant tall ass dude and even our PM's family also comes from southern Albania and he's > 2 meters tall.

    I guess we're are all just random, statistical anomalies and in reality most are all 5 feet tall.

    One individual is not a population, and one region is not all the country but we cannot go so far as to create a 'mondial' mean without any meaning.
    Random effects concern only very small pop's. What is interesting is the stable trend showed by different rankings of statures on a long enough time. And only striking differences can tell us something about genetical inheritance.

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    I've never understood why men get so competitive about height. Maybe it's a holdover from more primitive times when being taller than other men meant you could beat them in a fight.

    Well, we live in different times. It's what's in your brain that predicts if you can support a wife and family on your own if need be, or buy all those expensive men's toys.

    All I ever cared about as a woman, given that I loved to dance, was whether if I wore three or four inch heels I towered over him when dancing! :) Seriously, if the spark was there, I could have learned to live in flats. In fact, in my experience, men much over 6 feet are often rather clumsy and uncoordinated. Grace of movement is indeed something I noticed about men.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I'm flat footed and over 6 feet, but if you saw me dance, you'd be surprised. Whenever there's an opportunity to dance at a party, I take it. Often I'm one of the first on the dance floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    This stereotyping of smaller, less known populations is honestly annoying as hell. Even some Albanians here are pretending that southern Albanians are "short" based on random nonsense. I'm a giant tall ass dude and even our PM's family also comes from southern Albania and he's > 2 meters tall.

    I guess we're are all just random, statistical anomalies and in reality most are all 5 feet tall.
    Southern Albanians are just shorter than Northern Albanians, but that doesn’t mean all Southerners are short obviously. I hope you did not mean me and get offended by that.

    As for Edi Rama, his father is half from Berat (originally from Dardha of Korca) and half Shkodra and Slovenian.

    People from Dardha of Korca are known to be tall and many also claim ancestry from North Albania. I know few personally that are taller than most North Albanians and phenotypically resemble to the Montenegrins a lot.

    I don’t need to comment on his Shkodra + Slovenian grandmother that comes from 2 tall areas. The brother of his grandma, Zef Kolombi, was tall, so there’s that.

    Then his mother is from Vuno, Koleka family, and Laberia is known to have very tall people for Albanian standards and especially for Southern Albanian standards.

    And finally, people from Mirdita, Dibra, Burreli, Laçi, Kruja and at least half of Puka and Kukesi are not know to be tall, rather average or even short in many cases.

    It’s not a North vs South problem as we didn’t even mention Central Albanians who are rather average if not short with very few tall mountainous areas around Elbasan. These Elbasan highlanders are way taller than most Northerners.

    So let’s not misunderstand each other and start a North vs South war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    As you can devine, I'm a hair splitter about some questions. Even two geographically close pop's can have a different phoenotype background (say: different proportions in admixtures), neighbouring doesn't signify "the same " (in old namings, more 'alpin'like in southern Albania, more 'dinaric'like in northern Albania and even more in Herzegovinia; if I rely on Coon, the Montenegro people would have on top of this some 'borreby"like inputs. So...
    I was just precising something. I don't know enough about the real potential stature for Albanians; that said, I was astonished to read here that Albanians were shorter than French people (white French people?), it's not my feeling; the same for Rumanians, that as a whole I find taller than Frenchies. Even taken in account the social/economical level which changes at some level the statures ranking. I'm not taking any other position in the current debate.
    & by instance, at even a very local level, the ratios legs/trunk or legs/allover height are different from place to place, among rural people, if they are not so different! Just to be cautious.
    As a hair splitter myself, I’d suggest (if interested) to read my previous comment and better understand the height split within Albania. It’s not a North vs South analysis because that is not only simplistic but also wrong. We’re leaving out Mediterraneans (Atlantic, Pontid, Gracile) and Norics mostly.

    As for Herzegovina, that’s far from the core of the Dinaric race. That’s rather the “source” of that additional admixture that makes the Dinarics of Herzegovina, Montenegro, Dalmatia, etc. even taller than the average Dinarics.

    The core of Dinarics is North Albania, Western Kosovo, and Southern Montenegro. From the studies at hand so far, this core can reach averages of 181-182cm or even more in the future, who knows. It’s this core that increases the average height of Kosovars to 179.5cm.

    The moment you go South of River Drin in Albania the average height starts to drop and the phenotypes start to change too, with more Alpine and Mediterranean features.

    If you visit Montenegro yourself you’ll realize that the older generation is more within the “normal” range but it’s the new generation that gives you the Wow Factor.

    A previous study from Montenegro gave the average height of 178cm and a study from Vojvodina gave like 174cm (12 thousand participants). Are these the real averages? Maybe not, but they do give us a better idea and make us have more realistic expectations.

    I visited Montenegro many times and I’m taller than most people. Before I went there people were telling me I’d be feeling so short for the first time in my life. Guess what? I was “disappointed”, but that is my fault for expecting everyone to be at least 186cm and to be surrounded by people who are 195cm. The girls weren’t that tall either, same height with what you see in the decent to good neighborhoods in Tirana +- 1-2cm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    As a hair splitter myself, I’d suggest (if interested) to read my previous comment and better understand the height split within Albania. It’s not a North vs South analysis because that is not only simplistic but also wrong. We’re leaving out Mediterraneans (Atlantic, Pontid, Gracile) and Norics mostly.

    As for Herzegovina, that’s far from the core of the Dinaric race. That’s rather the “source” of that additional admixture that makes the Dinarics of Herzegovina, Montenegro, Dalmatia, etc. even taller than the average Dinarics.

    The core of Dinarics is North Albania, Western Kosovo, and Southern Montenegro. From the studies at hand so far, this core can reach averages of 181-182cm or even more in the future, who knows. It’s this core that increases the average height of Kosovars to 179.5cm.

    The moment you go South of River Drin in Albania the average height starts to drop and the phenotypes start to change too, with more Alpine and Mediterranean features.

    If you visit Montenegro yourself you’ll realize that the older generation is more within the “normal” range but it’s the new generation that gives you the Wow Factor.

    A previous study from Montenegro gave the average height of 178cm and a study from Vojvodina gave like 174cm (12 thousand participants). Are these the real averages? Maybe not, but they do give us a better idea and make us have more realistic expectations.

    I visited Montenegro many times and I’m taller than most people. Before I went there people were telling me I’d be feeling so short for the first time in my life. Guess what? I was “disappointed”, but that is my fault for expecting everyone to be at least 186cm and to be surrounded by people who are 195cm. The girls weren’t that tall either, same height with what you see in the decent to good neighborhoods in Tirana +- 1-2cm.

    For typologie, I was not going into details, just I wanted to show some link between body statures and old analysis not completely wrong, simplifying it in a two way opposition between types as 'alpin' and 'dinaric' which had rather opposite distributions between Southern and Northern Albania, some 70 years ago, among other less dense types IMO ('atlant mediter', you 'atlantic', seems to me more present on shores) . I knowed things are not so simple.
    Sorry but I didn't understand well your point about your own height compared to Montenegro people; who is the tallest, you or the local mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    For typologie, I was not going into details, just I wanted to show some link between body statures and old analysis not completely wrong, simplifying it in a two way opposition between types as 'alpin' and 'dinaric' which had rather opposite distributions between Southern and Northern Albania, some 70 years ago, among other less dense types IMO ('atlant mediter', you 'atlantic', seems to me more present on shores) . I knowed things are not so simple.
    Sorry but I didn't understand well your point about your own height compared to Montenegro people; who is the tallest, you or the local mean?
    Of course I understand, as a non local you have to rely on anthropology books like that of Coon, but even Coon’s book didn’t cover enough areas to give you a more complete idea.

    For instance, it’s interesting how the Mirdite people that Coon calls the shortest and with the darkest hair are very “West-Sicilian” pulled in results and PCA maps made by someone with a big database. The same goes to the Southern North Albanians and they too display more of those Mediterranean and Alpine physical characteristics.

    This seems linked to the Imperial Rome East Med influx that affected the Balkans and Italy (even up to Southern Germany but at a lower degree obviously). I personally provided the K13 coordinates of some members who are almost West Sicilian like or half way there and I have most of these members on Facebook or Instagram.

    Within Albanians at least there’s definitely some correlation between their location on the PCA map and physical characteristics.

    There’s a member who’s within the Italy_Romagna cluster and is 191cm tall, with a Dinaric-Altantic mixed phenotype.

    I am myself Dinaroid and the ancestry from the Albanians from Montenegro have pulled me Northwards in between mountain North Albanians (the most Dinaric looking so far) and Albanians from Montenegro.

    We have then South Eastern members with a Eastern pull that have more East Med genetically but also more Baltic and have an elevated level of blue eyes/fair hair, rounder features, or they’re very Mediterranean (Dinaricized) of a tall type, way taller than their fair “cousins”.

    Considering this, my hypothesis is that the Dinaric Alps or Northern Balkans had a local very tall population that was further admixed with a Germanic-Celtic due to the Western pull of Montenegrins and Dalmatians on the PCA and then got Slavic admixed. Northern North Albanians seem to mostly descend from this local very tall population with less Roman East Med admixture (and of course some North Eastern pull that varies from person to person) just like the Albanians from Montenegro who have an additional Northern or North Eastern pull, with some being very North Western.

    The vast majority of members in this Northern North Albanians and Alb from Montenegro are generally very tall.

    So Albanians are a mix or HRV_IA + Logkas with some having additional Northern and North-Eastern and some a Sicilian-like pull, not forgetting the Eastern (East Med+Slavic) of the Eastern regions.

    There’s South-Eastern Albanians and Northern Greeks that are more Northern (and Eastern) than myself and almost as Northern as Albanians from Montenegro, despite being a Southern Balkan region with a lot more East Med.

    I almost forgot, I am several cm taller than the Montenegrin average.

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    Holly sht, way to look insecure there. Feel better now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Holly sht, way to look insecure there. Feel better now?
    Please, let's pass without to simplify things too much. For some of us, every aspect of physical look and its causes can have some value. Without it would imply by force affective imput or any kind of complex. I'm only 1m71 and very well in my skin. BTW high statured people seem to have more often cancer, and to live less far as a whole, apparently. Myabe these results would have to be looked at more regionally?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Holly sht, way to look insecure there. Feel better now?
    Watch your mouth. This isn't theapricity.

    Am I clear?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vukojebina View Post
    It's clearly a Northern-Central European trait. But why Dalmatians, Herzegovinians and Montenegrins are at the very top of the list is definitely pretty odd.
    And I can confirm that Bosnians are taller than 180cm on average because I'm 180cm and more often than not I'm slightly shorter than my countrymen. I guess plenty of past generations eating a lot of meat and dairy might have something to do with it.
    Diet is of course important and likely most important thing but it looks like height is also linked with whg y dna i2a as people all over europe and america eat a lot of meat and milk but are much shorter and they have much less i2a. I2a peaks in bosnia and then croatia/montenegro where the tallest people are in the world (on average). I think milk plays a bigger role than meat as it helps bones with the calcium

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Southern Albanians are just shorter than Northern Albanians, but that doesn’t mean all Southerners are short obviously. I hope you did not mean me and get offended by that.
    As for Edi Rama, his father is half from Berat (originally from Dardha of Korca) and half Shkodra and Slovenian.
    People from Dardha of Korca are known to be tall and many also claim ancestry from North Albania. I know few personally that are taller than most North Albanians and phenotypically resemble to the Montenegrins a lot.
    I don’t need to comment on his Shkodra + Slovenian grandmother that comes from 2 tall areas. The brother of his grandma, Zef Kolombi, was tall, so there’s that.
    Then his mother is from Vuno, Koleka family, and Laberia is known to have very tall people for Albanian standards and especially for Southern Albanian standards.
    And finally, people from Mirdita, Dibra, Burreli, Laçi, Kruja and at least half of Puka and Kukesi are not know to be tall, rather average or even short in many cases.
    It’s not a North vs South problem as we didn’t even mention Central Albanians who are rather average if not short with very few tall mountainous areas around Elbasan. These Elbasan highlanders are way taller than most Northerners.
    So let’s not misunderstand each other and start a North vs South war.
    South albanians are at least same height if not taller than north albanians and i told you berat men are taller than most regions and now the statistics prove my statement from a few weeks ago

    Anyway these heights across albania will continue to increase because albania is still recovering from communism and the great poverty throughout the 90s. I predict places like berat will reach nearly 180cm average within the next 20 years

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    I'm going to close this thread if you keep insulting each other.

    Now it's who is taller which determines worth? Some people are just mad as hatters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm going to close this thread if you keep insulting each other.

    Now it's who is taller which determines worth? Some people are just mad as hatters.

    The topic of physical traits is always a touchy subject. You can discuss this topic as respectful and descriptive all you want and yet somebody will feel offended and take it personally in one way or another. There will be also some folks who happened to exhibit traits that are considered desirable who take respective studies about physical traits as an excuse to tease, or ridicule those who don't have these traits. It's a matter of fact, that humans all over the world and cultures view being tall more desirable than being short, at least when it comes to men. Anyway, too many people lack discipline and a scholastic approach when engaging in a discussion about anthropology or DNA purely for information, thus without evaluation and passing judgment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    The topic of physical traits is always a touchy subject. You can discuss this topic as respectful and descriptive all you want and yet somebody will feel offended and take it personally in one way or another. There will be also some folks who happened to exhibit traits that are considered desirable who take respective studies about physical traits as an excuse to tease, or ridicule those who don't have these traits. It's a matter of fact, that humans all over the world and cultures view being tall more desirable than being short, at least when it comes to men. Anyway, too many people lack discipline and a scholastic approach when engaging in a discussion about anthropology or DNA purely for information, thus without evaluation and passing judgment.
    Very much agree with the highlighted portion; the rest, not so much. :)

    I don't know any people who tease or ridicule people who don't have the "desired" traits as determined by some unknown authority. Goodness, you'd wind up a social pariah all alone on Fourth of July etc. :) I've only met them on anthrofora, and it's been quite a shock, actually.

    Completely subjective, of course, but REALLY tall men have never appealed to me. Perhaps part of it is because dancing with a man (ballroom) was always very important to me. Very tall men, say, over 6'2", are rarely very graceful on the dance floor. I don't know if it's correlation instead of causation, although very large trunk like men rarely strike me as graceful in movement of any kind. Well, except for African admixed men. Am I allowed to say that nowadays?

    Of course, it would have been a wrench never to wear heels when dancing, but I would have done it. Height was just never that important, although since my husband is about 6' tall I never really had to put it to the test.

    Also, are you sure Chinese and Japanese women find very tall Western men attractive? Not arguing, I just don't know. I personally sometimes find it a bit intimidating, and I'm taller than they are. Plus, they tend to run to fat in my experience, and I have a real distaste for that.

    I think people sometimes assume the "types" they like are universally liked, but I don't think that's always the case. Having heard so much about the universal attractiveness of blonde hair and blue eyes I was a bit surprised by a video showing pictures of western film stars to Japanese men which showed they liked neither the blondes nor the African American women. The hands down favorite was Anne Hathaway, who isn't even a classic beauty.

    Anyway, sorry, got a bit off topic there.

    It would make a change if men argued about who has the bigger brain, wouldn't it? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm going to close this thread if you keep insulting each other.
    Now it's who is taller which determines worth? Some people are just mad as hatters.
    There are some north albanians or kosovar albanians on here (or people acting like they are but are probably not even albanian) that have been insulting albanians and trolling us with complete lack of knowledge about albanian people or our history. When they face facts they start crying and report us, maybe they need to experience some communism to put their feet back down to earth

    And yes, height isnt that important but to some trolls it seems to be most important thing. My ancestors were shorter than me hundreds of years ago and were still great people. Diet plays a bigger role than genetics in determining height but there is a clear correlation with i2a people and bigger height than other europeans of the same diet

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    ^^There are certainly genetics papers which indicate that height is one of the most genetically determined traits. Perhaps people would do better to read those than to argue about which portion of which ethnic group is taller.

    For the record, Slavic speaking people who carried a certain kind of I2a Ydna may be responsible for bringing that trait to certain areas, but it is not TIED to the yDna. The alleles for height are in the autosomes. The papers make that clear.

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    After a long bureaucratic process, the article was eventually corrected and a press release was issued. It's a pity that it was not possible to add new information that became available thanks to the preprint by Allentoft et al. (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...90594.full.pdf) and that moved the topic several big steps forward.

    In the near future, you will see that we were right and I-M170 is autochthonous in the Balkans. And there were actually two founder effects positively affecting height: The second one was associated with E1b-V13 in northern Albania/Kosovo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    To summarize everything regarding the misdated Slavic sample I18719:


    Obvious Slavic uniparentals as already pointed out I-Y3120 and HV0a1a1b

    Late formed Slavic mtDNA:

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/HV0a1a1b/

    Actual dating: formed 600 ybp, TMRCA 275 ybp


    The wrong non radiocarbon dating is: 2950-3450 ypb


    Strong Slavic autosomal profile

    Distance: I18719_Slavic1.5181% / 0.01518087 | ADC: 0.25x RC

    32.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
    24.0 BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA
    20.4 SVK_Poprad_MA
    11.0 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
    9.4 DEU_MA_o
    2.6 HUN_Avar_Period

    Can also be modeled as 76% Avar_Slav_Szolad and 24% Eastern Balkan Native which makes it South Slavic-like


    Distance to: I18719_Slavic
    0.02650526 Romanian:G408
    0.02680971 Montenegrin:Montenegro6
    0.02720836 Serbian:717
    0.02749230 Serbian:729
    0.02775372 Serbian:726
    0.02815494 Montenegrin:Montenegro4


    I18719_Slavic does not plot near actual radiocarbon dated Bronze Age Dalmatian samples who have a North Italian-like autosomal profile


    Judging on what the authors have provided about the findings of Bezdanjaca cave, this non radiocarbon misdated Slavic sample might be as young as from World War II.




    I-M170 is a macro haplogroup designation. And as we have seen from multiple papers and more to come it is already proven that I-Y3120
    came with the early medieval Slavic migration into the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    The intellectual horizons of your minds are seriously blocked by Y haplogroups E, J, and G. And we won't get over these genetic limitations, obviously. What's the point of posting dozens of graphs with correlations above r = 0.70 (and not rarely above r = 0.80) and p-values of 0.000000000000001, when you continue to babble that it cannot be true and everybody can just reach such a probability to break the bank in Monte Carlo? I will be happy to explain it to anyone who will be interested. But the audience on this forum really isn't worthy of the slightest effort.
    This is the kind of "intellect" repeating the same non sense such as a major Slavic haplogroup being native to the Balkans.

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    You obviously want to believe what you want to believe. You will be disappointed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    You obviously want to believe what you want to believe. You will be disappointed.
    You’re back after 1 month? Did you do some reading and learn anything new?

    Or still think that the Medieval I-Y3120 is from the Bronze Age Balkans and brought the tall genes in there?

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    The data on ancient genetic ancestries provided by Allentoft et al. show that there is a very good reason why the Balkan lineages of I-M170 cannot be of Eastern European origin. But since you do not resemble a scientist even remotely, do not expect that I would share this information with you. I would recommend you to move to some hot nationalist forum because you would enjoy it much more than some boring scientific discussions.

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