Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal Extraordinary Physical Stature

According to Dr. Pavel from the Czech Republic the I-M423 giant men were hiding in Dalmatian caves for 2000 years until they decided to come out and mate with everyone else’s women.

So Dr. Pavel, who brought North East European auDNA in the Balkans, R1a alone?

R1a in Montenegro - 7%
R1a auDNA contribution - 40%?

The Slavs must have held some massive orgies.


If you picked up 19 men out of many thousands, who have lived in the Dinaric Alps in the course of 7000 years, and you only visited the Dalmatian coast, the shepherds from the mountains really did not need to hide. Given that we find mostly J2 in prehistoric Dalmatia, and J2 is the most antagonistic Y haplogroup to I-M170 in the whole of Western Eurasia, you can guess that these people did not organize joint picnics and you will hardly find any I-M170 in places with the high concentration of J2. The explanation of such a highly specific phenotype as a result of a recent migration would be very, very complicated. Therefore, before abandoning the theory about the autochthonous origin of I-M170, I would try to go deeper into the mountains.

I-M170.jpg
J-M304.jpg

Dinaric Alps (I-M170).jpg
Dinaric Alps (J2).jpg
 
While R1a and N correlate very strongly with the proportion of the Yamnaya ancestry in Europe, and E/J/G correlate very strongly with the proportion of the Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, I-M170 does not correlate with any ancestry. These results are based on only 16 countries from Haak et al. (2016) but I believe that in the whole of Europe, we would get similar results. There are more data from the UK Biobank in the preprint by Allentoft et al., and I do hope that I will get to them soon.


Y haplogroup
Autosomal genetic ancestry
Villabruna
Yamnaya
Viillabruna &
Yamnaya
Near Eastern
E
-0.30
-0.91
-0.72
0.72
(p = 0.26)
(p < 0.001)
(p = 0.002)
(p = 0.002)
G
-0.41
-0.58
-0.58
0.58
(p = 0.11)
(p = 0.020)
(p = 0.019)
(p = 0.019)
I
0.11
0.32
0.26
-0.26
(p = 0.68)
(p = 0.23)
(p = 0.34)
(p = 0.34)
J
-0.38
-0.94
-0.78
0.78
(p = 0.15)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
J1
-0.57
-0.78
-0.79
0.79
(p = 0.020)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
J2
-0.32
-0.91
-0.74
0.74
(p = 0.23)
(p < 0.001)
(p = 0.001)
(p = 0.001)
E & G & J
-0.36
-0.93
-0.77
0.77
(p = 0.17)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
N
0.27
0.48
0.44
-0.44
(p = 0.32)
(p = 0.057)
(p = 0.084)
(p = 0.084)
R1a
0.60
0.63
0.71
-0.71
(p = 0.014)
(p = 0.009)
(p = 0.002)
(p = 0.002)
I & R1a
0.53
0.65
0.69
-0.69
(p = 0.036)
(p = 0.006)
(p = 0.003)
(p = 0.003)
N & R1a
0.57
0.75
0.77
-0.77
(p = 0.020)
(p = 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
(p < 0.001)
R1b
-0.50
-0.30
-0.45
0.45
(p = 0.050)
(p = 0.27)
(p = 0.078)
(p = 0.078)
R1b-S116
(n = 14)
-0.49
-0.31
-0.46
0.46
(p = 0.075)
(p = 0.29)
(p = 0.096)
(p = 0.096)
R1b-U106
(n = 14)
0.13
0.52
0.41
-0.41
(p = 0.65)
(p = 0.055)
(p = 0.15)
(p = 0.15)
R1a & R1b
0.05
0.30
0.21
-0.21
(p = 0.85)
(p = 0.26)
(p = 0.43)
(p = 0.43)
 
To summarize everything regarding the misdated Slavic sample I18719:


Obvious Slavic uniparentals as already pointed out I-Y3120 and HV0a1a1b

Late formed Slavic mtDNA:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/HV0a1a1b/

Actual dating: formed 600 ybp, TMRCA 275 ybp


The wrong non radiocarbon dating is: 2950-3450 ypb


Strong Slavic autosomal profile

Distance: I18719_Slavic1.5181% / 0.01518087 | ADC: 0.25x RC

32.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
24.0 BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA
20.4 SVK_Poprad_MA
11.0 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
9.4 DEU_MA_o
2.6 HUN_Avar_Period

Can also be modeled as 76% Avar_Slav_Szolad and 24% Eastern Balkan Native which makes it South Slavic-like


Distance to: I18719_Slavic
0.02650526 Romanian:G408
0.02680971 Montenegrin:Montenegro6
0.02720836 Serbian:717
0.02749230 Serbian:729
0.02775372 Serbian:726
0.02815494 Montenegrin:Montenegro4


I18719_Slavic does not plot near actual radiocarbon dated Bronze Age Dalmatian samples who have a North Italian-like autosomal profile


Judging on what the authors have provided about the findings of Bezdanjaca cave, this non radiocarbon misdated Slavic sample might be as young as from World War II.





Yep. It's obvious. This guy is a human trafficker, trying to smuggle some recent Slav into the bronze age. How pathetic.
 
I really doubt he’s the author. Sounds more like a Serbian troll who’s pushing for an autochthonous origin of the Serbs and Croats in the Balkans. You know, theories that specific groups of people believed in 2005.

Yeah, it seems so. His haplogroup is apparently I-P109 which is a typical Serbian one, and otherwise pretty obscure.

The actual authors probably just assumed a simplistic connnection between HG I and a height gene, without carefully studying inheritance mechanisms and what Y-DNA haplogroups actually are.
 
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If you picked up 19 men out of many thousands, who have lived in the Dinaric Alps in the course of 7000 years, and you only visited the Dalmatian coast, the shepherds from the mountains really did not need to hide. Given that we find mostly J2 in prehistoric Dalmatia, and J2 is the most antagonistic Y haplogroup to I-M170 in the whole of Western Eurasia, you can guess that these people did not organize joint picnics and you will hardly find any I-M170 in places with the high concentration of J2. The explanation of such a highly specific phenotype as a result of a recent migration would be very, very complicated. Therefore, before abandoning the theory about the autochthonous origin of I-M170, I would try to go deeper into the mountains.

View attachment 13344
View attachment 13345

View attachment 13346
View attachment 13347
Are these the famous pictures/graphs that were supposed to shut our mouths? LOL

This dude doesn't even know the difference between J2b and J2a.

As always, what a waste of time. Go find another hobby. You can't be the author of that "scientific paper" although your skillset is at the same level.
 
Are these the famous pictures/graphs that were supposed to shut our mouths? LOL

This dude doesn't even know the difference between J2b and J2a.

As always, what a waste of time. Go find another hobby. You can't be the author of that "scientific paper" although your skillset is at the same level.


Oh, I see that you are really highly intelligent and you have learned a lot during the last five days. Keep going - but without my presence. Do you know the Bible proverb about throwing pearls to some animals? I hope I don't have to quote it in full.

Btw, this table explains a lot about the fundamental problem of this thread
https://analyseeconomique.files.word...ty-table-4.png
 
Holy moly, the level of handicap here is insane. Mate if you had any clue about the upcoming Harvard papers you would not be making such a fool of yourself.
"While R1a and N correlate very strongly with the proportion of the Yamnaya ancestry in Europe, and E/J/G correlate very strongly with the proportion of the Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, I-M170 does not correlate with any ancestry"
Tell me you have no clue without telling me you have no clue. Absolutely ridiculous. If you are the real author man, no wonder this shit turned out the way it did.
Maybe send Lazaridis the statement I quoted from you, in fact please do. I want to see how he reacts. If you are already at PhD level, I would ask for my money back from whatever institution you graduated from. Surely not Charles University, they would not make such mistake (I hope).

Edit:
J formed 42900 ybp, TMRCA 31600 ybp
G formed 48500 ybp, TMRCA 25200 ybp
E formed 65200 ybp, TMRCA 52300 ybp

This is the level of research and conclusion making we are talking about.

60kbp to 40kbp, Anatolian Neolithic

What is even going on here. I am lost for words.

Edit2: It might take a couple of months, maybe couple of years, but this topic will clear up. As always when I reach such impasse on this forum, where even debating is worthless, I leave the final world to future samples/papers. I have been vindicated before, on much harder to predict genetic topics. Time will tell.
 
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This is just the latest instance of "Everything in the world is about Y-DNA haplogroups". I2 is so varied, that it existed in WHG, EEF and Yamnaya.
 
Oh, I see that you are really highly intelligent and you have learned a lot during the last five days. Keep going - but without my presence. Do you know the Bible proverb about throwing pearls to some animals? I hope I don't have to quote it in full.

Btw, this table explains a lot about the fundamental problem of this thread
https://analyseeconomique.files.word...ty-table-4.png
Weren't you supposed to blow our minds once you reach 20 posts?
 
Weren't you supposed to blow our minds once you reach 20 posts?

The intellectual horizons of your minds are seriously blocked by Y haplogroups E, J, and G. And we won't get over these genetic limitations, obviously. What's the point of posting dozens of graphs with correlations above r = 0.70 (and not rarely above r = 0.80) and p-values of 0.000000000000001, when you continue to babble that it cannot be true and everybody can just reach such a probability to break the bank in Monte Carlo? I will be happy to explain it to anyone who will be interested. But the audience on this forum really isn't worthy of the slightest effort.
 
The intellectual horizons of your minds are seriously blocked by Y haplogroups E, J, and G. And we won't get over these genetic limitations, obviously. What's the point of posting dozens of graphs with correlations above r = 0.70 (and not rarely above r = 0.80) and p-values of 0.000000000000001, when you continue to babble that it cannot be true and everybody can just reach such a probability to break the bank in Monte Carlo? I will be happy to explain it to anyone who will be interested. But the audience on this forum really isn't worthy of the slightest effort.
Now you’re sounding like the member PaleoRevenge from the Roma community who believes in the link between haplogroups and personalities/IQ.

Thank you for writing this down. Makes it easier for the rest of us.
 
This has to be a larp right?
First he thinks the methodology he used in those images is sound, lol... when shit looks like this https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
Now he is sounding like Himmler's bastard, who got dropped on the head once or twice, and discovered apricity just after.
No author would assassinate their reputation this way. Has to be a larp.

Screenshotting this stuff just in case its the real deal lmao, am sure his employers would love this shit.
 
This is probably another dumb forum troll. Please stop giving these people the time of day. Probably all Johan Derite in disguise. The second he goes quiet, all these accounts start popping up.
 
This is probably another dumb forum troll. Please stop giving these people the time of day. Probably all Johan Derite in disguise. The second he goes quiet, all these accounts start popping up.

Derite? Absolutely no. Bringing him in this thread without context is absolutely bizarre and tells me about your sub-conscious more than him. He is not like you creating dozens of sock puppets in order to give false impressions, same as Dushman/Dema.
 
My achievements are such that I earn enough money through way more interesting ways to have a happy life and in my free time engage in genetic discussions as a hobby.

Your achievement is to beg for funding from other people.



I feel your frustration though, you did all that work and soon you’ll have to remove your “scientific conclusions” from the internet because someone will fix the dating of that I2a Medieval sample.

It must have taken you weeks not to say months to finish it and in the end you’ll be hit by an: “oops, we put Bronze Age by mistake”.

Imagine the shame that even random fora members with completely different jobs and fields of research know about the wrong dating, yet you together with an entire team did all that work for nothing.

Insults on Albanian starting again in 3, 2, 1…

P.s. Feel free to come for vacations. Lots of blonde Czech love getting tanned on the Albanian beaches and enjoy their time here. We’re very hospitable people :)

Here’s another link from the recent average height for Albanians: https://www.researchgate.net/public...m_Armspan_Measurements_in_Albanian_Youngsters

The interesting bits include the part where Albanian girls are very close to the Top 10 tallest nations on Earth, their arm-span being higher than height compared to other nations (which indicates further potential growth), and males having much higher arm-span ratio than our neighbours which again indicates potential growth with improved nutrition and lifestyle in the future.

The study included also several people in their mid to late 30s and 40s which must have slightly decreased average height (especially for men).

I hope in the future someone will conduct a proper study with thousands of samples taken from universities, preferably from those close to graduating to include possible slight increase from 18-24.

Not to took part in this competition, I just say span upon height is not the same in all populations (countries and regions, even in the same social statute), so it is not by force in itself an argument for potential increase in stature.
 
Not to took part in this competition, I just say span upon height is not the same in all populations (countries and regions, even in the same social statute), so it is not by force in itself an argument for potential increase in stature.
We’re talking about 2 small neighbouring populations such as Montenegrins and Albanians not Swedes vs Nigerians.

Obviously even the margin of error will produce different results but between 2 neighbouring populations it shouldn’t be that big of a difference.

Besides, it was the authors’ conclusion as well that Albanians are obviously yet to achieve their full genetic height due to improved nutrition, healthcare, and lifestyle in general.

Bad nutrition makes you more susceptible to decreased potential height, male pattern hair loss, bad skin, bad bone health, etc. Having your arms grow proportionally longer than your entire body isn’t that shocking to me.
 
We’re talking about 2 small neighbouring populations such as Montenegrins and Albanians not Swedes vs Nigerians.

Obviously even the margin of error will produce different results but between 2 neighbouring populations it shouldn’t be that big of a difference.

Besides, it was the authors’ conclusion as well that Albanians are obviously yet to achieve their full genetic height due to improved nutrition, healthcare, and lifestyle in general.

Bad nutrition makes you more susceptible to decreased potential height, male pattern hair loss, bad skin, bad bone health, etc. Having your arms grow proportionally longer than your entire body isn’t that shocking to me.

As you can devine, I'm a hair splitter about some questions. Even two geographically close pop's can have a different phoenotype background (say: different proportions in admixtures), neighbouring doesn't signify "the same " (in old namings, more 'alpin'like in southern Albania, more 'dinaric'like in northern Albania and even more in Herzegovinia; if I rely on Coon, the Montenegro people would have on top of this some 'borreby"like inputs. So...
I was just precising something. I don't know enough about the real potential stature for Albanians; that said, I was astonished to read here that Albanians were shorter than French people (white French people?), it's not my feeling; the same for Rumanians, that as a whole I find taller than Frenchies. Even taken in account the social/economical level which changes at some level the statures ranking. I'm not taking any other position in the current debate.
& by instance, at even a very local level, the ratios legs/trunk or legs/allover height are different from place to place, among rural people, if they are not so different! Just to be cautious.
 
Mountainous areas like northern Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro limited contact between adjoining populations leading to inbreeding, founder effects, genetic drift so that even though you started with very similar populations in the beginning you end with a substantially different ones. Flat, farming areas on the other hand are ripe for intermixing.
 
Mountainous areas like northern Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro limited contact between adjoining populations leading to inbreeding, founder effects, genetic drift so that even though you started with very similar populations in the beginning you end with a substantially different ones. Flat, farming areas on the other hand are ripe for intermixing.

That's exactly the explanation Cavalli-Sforza gave for the fact that his "test" subjects from the Val Parma in the high Apennines were so different from the people from the Po Valley in the same province (Emilia).

In fact, there were differences from small village to small village, with the villages at the highest altitudes (my father's) having the most drift. In his mother's village, at the highest point, every single person had light hair and eyes and was pretty tall. With the descent into the valley the phenotypes changed.
 

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