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Thread: Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal Extraordinary Physical Stature

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    Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal Extraordinary Physical Stature


    Mapping the Mountains of Giants:Anthropometric Data from the Western Balkans Reveal a Nucleus of Extraordinary Physical Stature in Europe


    Abstract

    The inhabitants of the Dinaric Alps (former Yugoslavia and Albania) have long been known as people of impressive body height, but after World War II, there was a critical lack of data related to this phenomenon. This anthropological synthesis includes the measurements of 47,158 individuals (24,642 males and 22,516 females) from the period 2010–2018 and maps detail regional differences in male stature in the Western Balkans. According to these data, young men from Montenegro (182.9 cm) are currently the tallest 18-year-olds in the world, surpassing their Dutch peers (182.4 cm), and 18-year-old boys from Dalmatia are even taller (183.7 cm).at a regional level. A continuous belt of extraordinary height means (>184 cm) stretches from the Adriatic coast of Dalmatia through Herzegovina to the central part of Montenegro. This article summarizes all the key socio-economic, nutritional, and genetic data, and offers possible explanations for this anthropological phenomenon. Since the remarkable height of the Dinaric populations cannot be connected with any commonly known environmental factor, the most probable hypothesis is genetic and links these physical characteristics with the local founder effect of Y haplogroup I-M170. Furthermore, given that both the level of socio-economic development and dietary protein quality are still sub-optimal, the local upward trend in body height has the potential to continue in the future.


    https://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/11/5/786/htm

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    This is the table.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This is the table.
    Y haplogroup I-M170 generally constitutes a very interesting case because its origin is very old and can be traced as far back as to the Upper Paleolithic Gravettian culture [25]. I-M170 was also closely associated with the post-glacial expansion of Epigravettian (Late Gravettian) groups from the refugium around the Adriatic sea [26]. At present, it reaches a global frequency peak in Herzegovina (70.9%) [27], where it is overwhelmingly represented by the Balkan subbranch I2a1a-P37.2 and particularly by downstream mutations of I2a1a2-M423 [28]. This dominance of I2a1a2-M423 would result from a relatively recent (possibly even post-Neolithic) founder effect [27,28,29,30]. Still, the history of I-M170 in the Dinaric Alps remains enigmatic and due to the lack of well-preserved skeletal material, it will be difficult to capture its evolution over time. In fact, no prehistoric samples from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro have been analyzed so far [31], and to our knowledge, the oldest occurrence of I-M170 (I2a1a2-M423) in the Dinaric area was documented in the Bezdanjača Cave (Lika-Senj county, Adriatic Croatia) and was dated to ~1200 cal. BC [32].

    What kind of pseudo-scientific malice is this??????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Y haplogroup I-M170 generally constitutes a very interesting case because its origin is very old and can be traced as far back as to the Upper Paleolithic Gravettian culture [25]. I-M170 was also closely associated with the post-glacial expansion of Epigravettian (Late Gravettian) groups from the refugium around the Adriatic sea [26]. At present, it reaches a global frequency peak in Herzegovina (70.9%) [27], where it is overwhelmingly represented by the Balkan subbranch I2a1a-P37.2 and particularly by downstream mutations of I2a1a2-M423 [28]. This dominance of I2a1a2-M423 would result from a relatively recent (possibly even post-Neolithic) founder effect [27,28,29,30]. Still, the history of I-M170 in the Dinaric Alps remains enigmatic and due to the lack of well-preserved skeletal material, it will be difficult to capture its evolution over time. In fact, no prehistoric samples from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro have been analyzed so far [31], and to our knowledge, the oldest occurrence of I-M170 (I2a1a2-M423) in the Dinaric area was documented in the Bezdanjača Cave (Lika-Senj county, Adriatic Croatia) and was dated to ~1200 cal. BC [32].

    What kind of pseudo-scientific malice is this??????????
    It is amazing, to my understanding that sample was wrongly assumed to be a sample from Bezdanjaca Cave and he was from modern time. It's the same bullshit they keep repeating with Pharaoh Ramsess III, although he was typical Mesolithic Egyptian descended E-V22, studies try to bullshit again and again that he was E1b1a to try to appease the African-American mass. 23andme reports to them you are related to Ramsess III.

    It's like a gray-zone, neither legal neither illegal to do so, they will do STR analysis so in case someone points finger to them they will say they made an error, that's an escape plan.

    As for Y-DNA I in general i think it wasn't so much prominent among Gravettian Culture but it was present, the oldest European attested Y-DNA is C1a2 then Y-DNA I clades who took the lead during Paleolithic to Mesolithic transition and became the European-wide Y-DNA, but also yet some unresolved Y-DNA F, or perhaps they were basal.

    The Gravettians were indeed tall(Y-DNA CT, I , IJK, F, BT, C1a2), along with Iberomaurusians from North Africa (E-M78) they were the tallest prehistoric people.

    But, the height report makes sense to me, not something i am doubtful of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It is amazing, to my understanding that sample was wrongly assumed to be a sample from Bezdanjaca Cave and he was from modern time. It's the same bullshit they keep repeating with Pharaoh Ramsess III, although he was typical Mesolithic Egyptian descended E-V22, studies try to bullshit again and again that he was E1b1a to try to appease the African-American mass. 23andme reports to them you are related to Ramsess III.

    It's like a gray-zone, neither legal neither illegal to do so, they will do STR analysis so in case someone points finger to them they will say they made an error, that's an escape plan.

    As for Y-DNA I in general i think it wasn't so much prominent among Gravettian Culture but it was present, the oldest European attested Y-DNA is C1a2 then Y-DNA I clades who took the lead during Paleolithic to Mesolithic transition and became the European-wide Y-DNA, but also yet some unresolved Y-DNA F, or perhaps they were basal.

    The Gravettians were indeed tall(Y-DNA CT, I , IJK, F, BT, C1a2), along with Iberomaurusians from North Africa (E-M78) they were the tallest prehistoric people.

    But, the height report makes sense to me, not something i am doubtful of.
    "Since the remarkable height of the Dinaric populations cannot be connected with any commonly known environmental factor, the most probable hypothesis is genetic and links these physical characteristics with the local founder effect of Y haplogroup I-M170."

    How did this get through peer review??? This is pure pseudo science.


    I get it but this is a "wannabe" scientific paper and not a commercial testing platform. This just shows how much propaganda runs in ex-Yugoslav countries' institutions. This is insane. They have done this multiple time but it is 2022 now.

    Their references are absolute trash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    "Since the remarkable height of the Dinaric populations cannot be connected with any commonly known environmental factor, the most probable hypothesis is genetic and links these physical characteristics with the local founder effect of Y haplogroup I-M170."

    How did this get through peer review??? This is pure pseudo science.


    I get it but this is a "wannabe" scientific paper and not a commercial testing platform. This just shows how much propaganda runs in ex-Yugoslav countries' institutions. This is insane. They have done this multiple time but it is 2022 now.

    Their references are absolute trash.
    They refer to Gravettians, but they forgot that the demise of Gravettians is correlated with the rise of Y-DNA I, and then we see a decrease in height among Mesolithic Europeans, though the decrease is just marginal. So, i wouldn't strictly correlate it with 30 thousand year old people who are reported to have belonged to a mix of different Y-DNA's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    They refer to Gravettians, but they forgot that the demise of Gravettians is correlated with the rise of Y-DNA I, and then we see a decrease in height among Mesolithic Europeans, though the decrease is just marginal. So, i wouldn't strictly correlate it with 30 thousand year old people who are reported to have belonged to a mix of different Y-DNA's.
    Well that is another dumb statement made by them. I actually meant their modern references.

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    I am not sure if you guys have been through the publishing process before, barring the top publications, you can get away with publishing gibberish.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...l-hoax/572212/

    Have yet to read the paper btw, but the title really got me...

    NVM, had a look.

    "Since the remarkable height of the Dinaric populations cannot be connected with any commonly known environmental factor, the most probable hypothesis is genetic and links these physical characteristics with the local founder effect of Y haplogroup I-M170. Furthermore, given that both the level of socio-economic development and dietary protein quality are still sub-optimal, the local upward trend in body height has the potential to continue in the future."

    This is their thesis btw.
    Judging by the figures/data they use, this could have been a twitter thread, lol

    Edit: At least some of the graphics could be useful as far as stats gathering



    'But some of the other graphs, especially this one gives the idea of how this paper came to be

    A lot of holes even for Swiss cheese here.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I am not sure if you guys have been through the publishing process before, barring the top publications, you can get away with publishing gibberish.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...l-hoax/572212/

    Have yet to read the paper btw, but the title really got me...

    NVM, had a look.

    "Since the remarkable height of the Dinaric populations cannot be connected with any commonly known environmental factor, the most probable hypothesis is genetic and links these physical characteristics with the local founder effect of Y haplogroup I-M170. Furthermore, given that both the level of socio-economic development and dietary protein quality are still sub-optimal, the local upward trend in body height has the potential to continue in the future."

    This is their thesis btw.
    Judging by the figures/data they use, this could have been a twitter thread, lol

    Edit: At least some of the graphics could be useful as far as stats gathering
    According to them Kosovo of course does not exist and the population there is not Albanian. Funny thing is that it gets upvotes on Anthrogenica in the Genetic papers thread.

    This propagandistic idea (Slavic lineages being autochthonous to the Balkans) is also quite popular among some Albanian users such as that person from Berat who basically blabbers the same thing.

    Edit: far mut "stats" those are pure lopë shit

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    I'm curious on where/how they got the average height of Albanian municipalities.

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    Tbh I'm quite surprised by the Shkoder average height. I'm now really curious how this was performed.

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    Genuine question about the editors on Yfull. Why is id:I18719 still dated at Bronze Age even though his auDNA is Slavic and his mtDNA split in the 13th century and was not even radiocarbon dated? Judging on what I have heard from other users here they have tried to sneak in one misdated Slavic sample before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Tbh I'm quite surprised by the Shkoder average height. I'm now really curious how this was performed.
    That’s some pretty idiotic claim by the ones that conducted the “study”. The latest study measured people from Shkodra, Tirana, and Elbasan and the average height was 176.6cm, with Shkodra being obviously the tallest of the three. This study was also stupid because the goal was to measure people from the Dinaric Alps and compare them to Montenegrins, Bosnians, and Dalmatians, so no idea what were they doing in Tirana and Elbasan.

    But the important part is that Albanian girls on the other hand were among the tallest in Europe. If I remember correctly they were only 0.5cm shorter than Serbian girls and maybe 1cm shorter than Montenegrin ones. This goes to show that girls are better fed and live a much healthier lifestyle than Albanian boys who spend all their day out eating much more street food, skipping meals, and smoking at an early age. Also around 10% of the girls were above 180cm (higher than many regions in the Dinaric Alps) which was super interesting and goes to show how nutrition is still a major factor in height in Albania.

    I apologize if I got some numbers wrong as its been a long time since I last read it. Here’s the link to the study: http://www.intjmorphol.com/wp-conten...art_23_382.pdf

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    It's clearly a Northern-Central European trait. But why Dalmatians, Herzegovinians and Montenegrins are at the very top of the list is definitely pretty odd.
    And I can confirm that Bosnians are taller than 180cm on average because I'm 180cm and more often than not I'm slightly shorter than my countrymen. I guess plenty of past generations eating a lot of meat and dairy might have something to do with it.

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    Are these guys Matzinger's cousins or something. What did I just read

    The sad state of academia goes on. Unfortunately, there are very few professionals in these fields. Lots of people with degrees are just jokes.

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    My maternal relatives, who are from Shkodra, are taller than 174 centimeters, according to my own knowledge. I can imagine that the Malesia Madhe municipality has far more people taller than 174cm.

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    According to heights of the 1930's 1940's, Albanian Tosks were around 1m67 (close to Belgians) when Greeks average was around 1m69; onlyGhegs were higher statured... Of course, rhings can change as time passes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    According to them Kosovo of course does not exist and the population there is not Albanian. Funny thing is that it gets upvotes on Anthrogenica in the Genetic papers thread.

    This propagandistic idea (Slavic lineages being autochthonous to the Balkans) is also quite popular among some Albanian users such as that person from Berat who basically blabbers the same thing.

    Edit: far mut "stats" those are pure lopë shit
    Shoq mos li tulifar klloshari me ta prish diten.
    Kam punu ma heret ne karjer si academic freelance, good money kur ke pune me njerz t botes pare dhe e di pak e shum se si shkojn kta pune. Ky punim osht klas i dobet. Me behet qefi qe e verejte te komenti im kritiken implicite se bash qaty e kisha piken, po grafiku flet vete dukshem.
    Tash keta njerz skan as teze, as hipoteze te testume, as kan perdor asnifar statistike per te vertetu apo pergenjeshtru. E pare punes qysh ka shpetu ky titull deri ne publikim. E dyta mire kishen pas bo te bonjen test korrelacioni mes paternal Y dhe height me tabele p values. E treta punes, popullatat e vendeve o dasht mi nda ne grupe paternale mas paku per mu be ky test, po jo krejt i kan shti mni thes si sharlatan. E katerta, shife cfar bibliografie kan perdor, far punimi te dobet moti skisha pa. Parmeno me bo analize kulitative (as opposed to quantitative) pa u bazu se paku me meta research qe perfshin punime te tilla https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04088-9

    Tash ne lidhje me metodologjine e hulumtimit pak e shume u shpreha, a ne lidhje me metodologjine e mbledhjes se te dhenave skam sa duhet informata, po nese merret ky punim nga tiltulli, dhe "to the best of our knowledge" statement qe kan shkru keta, ku 8 veta spo i bikan fillit munesh me kuptu inkompetencen ose ma keq, academic dishonesty qe shfaqin. Thjest besoj se ka te bej dhe inkompetence, shifja referencat autorve, tipi paska maru ekonomi a 2 lidhje si paska ne lidhje me temen, pergjegjsi akademik osht mu qortu qe e ka leju me qen pjese.

    Po shprehem Shqip, se sem ha kari me u bo un ktyne peer review, kur vete profesorat e tyne i kan lene ne baldet.
    As google translate ska mi ndimu, le ta kuptojn ket muabet ata per te cilet osht shkru, e jo tulifar sock accounti.

    Besoj kuptohemi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Shoq mos li tulifar klloshari me ta prish diten.
    Kam punu ma heret ne karjer si academic freelance, good money kur ke pune me njerz t botes pare dhe e di pak e shum se si shkojn kta pune. Ky punim osht klas i dobet. Me behet qefi qe e verejte te komenti im kritiken implicite se bash qaty e kisha piken, po grafiku flet vete dukshem.
    Tash keta njerz skan as teze, as hipoteze te testume, as kan perdor asnifar statistike per te vertetu apo pergenjeshtru. E pare punes qysh ka shpetu ky titull deri ne publikim. E dyta mire kishen pas bo te bonjen test korrelacioni mes paternal Y dhe height me tabele p values. E treta punes, popullatat e vendeve o dasht mi nda ne grupe paternale mas paku per mu be ky test, po jo krejt i kan shti mni thes si sharlatan. E katerta, shife cfar bibliografie kan perdor, far punimi te dobet moti skisha pa. Parmeno me bo analize kulitative (as opposed to quantitative) pa u bazu se paku me meta research qe perfshin punime te tilla https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04088-9

    Tash ne lidhje me metodologjine e hulumtimit pak e shume u shpreha, a ne lidhje me metodologjine e mbledhjes se te dhenave skam sa duhet informata, po nese merret ky punim nga tiltulli, dhe "to the best of our knowledge" statement qe kan shkru keta, ku 8 veta spo i bikan fillit munesh me kuptu inkompetencen ose ma keq, academic dishonesty qe shfaqin. Thjest besoj se ka te bej dhe inkompetence, shifja referencat autorve, tipi paska maru ekonomi a 2 lidhje si paska ne lidhje me temen, pergjegjsi akademik osht mu qortu qe e ka leju me qen pjese.

    Po shprehem Shqip, se sem ha kari me u bo un ktyne peer review, kur vete profesorat e tyne i kan lene ne baldet.
    As google translate ska mi ndimu, le ta kuptojn ket muabet ata per te cilet osht shkru, e jo tulifar sock accounti.

    Besoj kuptohemi
    edit: delete
    Last edited by mount123; 04-06-22 at 17:53.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Judging from the flags present here, this post is much more about hot heads than about science.

    If you do not believe that founder effects associated with the spread of specific Y haplogroups are also associated with the spread of the physical traits of the dominant founding male, I am sorry but you will have to live with it somehow. And it doesn't just end with height. It concerns cranial morphology, lactose tolerance, body build (somatotype), and undoubtedly many other physical characteristics.

    And as for the dating of the man from the Bezdanjača Cave, you can find it in Patterson, N., Large-scale migration into Britain during the Middle to Late Bronze Age. Nature 601.7894 (2022): 588-594. Supplementary table S1.

    As far as I know, the cave is famous because of the Bronze Age finds from the late 2nd millenium BC.
    Jankovic, I., & Novak, M. (2019, March). Cranial injuries in the Bronze Age sample from Bezdanjaca cave, Croatia. In American Journal of Physical Anthropology (Vol. 168, pp. 113-113).

    The only thing for which I must apologize to all readers are the persisting technical issues that came into being during the final editing of the article (especially shifted links to some rereferences). WE have been urging this for 1+ week already and hopefully, it should be corrected within several days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    Judging from the flags present here, this post is much more about hot heads than about science.

    If you do not believe that founder effects associated with the spread of specific Y haplogroups are also associated with the spread of the physical traits of the dominant founding male, I am sorry but you will have to live with it somehow. And it doesn't just end with height. It concerns cranial morphology, lactose tolerance, body build (somatotype), and undoubtedly many other physical characteristics.

    And as for the dating of the man from the Bezdanjača Cave, you can find it in Patterson, N., Large-scale migration into Britain during the Middle to Late Bronze Age. Nature 601.7894 (2022): 588-594. Supplementary table S1.

    As far as I know, the cave is famous because of the Bronze Age finds from the late 2nd millenium BC.
    Jankovic, I., & Novak, M. (2019, March). Cranial injuries in the Bronze Age sample from Bezdanjaca cave, Croatia. In American Journal of Physical Anthropology (Vol. 168, pp. 113-113).

    The only thing for which I must apologize to all readers are the persisting technical issues that came into being during the final editing of the article (especially shifted links to some rereferences). WE have been urging this for 1+ week already and hopefully, it should be corrected within several days.
    The referenced sample id:I18719 has a Slavic autosomal profile and Slavic uniparentals with a mtDNA which is estimated to have split in the 13th century. It is not radiocarbon dated. A better research by your side would have been more helpful. The whole hypotheses you and your fellows' argumentation is based on is rather pseudo scientific. I would also advice you to not use ad hominems whilst referring to other people judging them by their flags. This is very unprofessional behaviour just as this "article" that postulates non evidentially that a major Slavic lineage is "autochthonous" to the Balkans which by all evidence is not true.

    Have a good day.

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    As far as I can tell, all sources (including YFull.com) date this sample to the Late Bronze Age. If you want to complain, then send complaints to the authors of the Nature article. It may surprise you but I don't have a 14C lab at home.

    Btw, one of our co-authors is a Kosovar Albanian and I think that I can speak for all co-authors that we are really not interested in any childish quarrels on the Eupedia page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    As far as I can tell, all sources (including YFull.com) date this sample to the Late Bronze Age. If you want to complain, then send complaints to the authors of the Nature article. It may surprise you but I don't have a 14C lab at home.

    Btw, one of our co-authors is a Kosovar Albanian and I think that I can speak for all co-authors that we are really not interested in any childish quarrels on the Eupedia page.
    You created an account just to reply to childish posts. Says a lot about you.

    I2a-Din is not even that high (compared to other regions north of them) in Montenegro and they’re on the very tall group. One of the tallest regions in Montenegro happens to be also flood with haplogroup N, yet your study missed it.

    Last but not least, 100 years ago Montenegrins were reaching 176cm while Albanian North Western Ghegs 174cm.

    So Ghegs have not changed at all according to you (entirely not true) whereas Montenegrins are reaching 185cm.

    In conclusion, the local population in the region was already tall and the early Medieval created an admixed population that is even taller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    As far as I can tell, all sources (including YFull.com) date this sample to the Late Bronze Age. If you want to complain, then send complaints to the authors of the Nature article. It may surprise you but I don't have a 14C lab at home.

    Btw, one of our co-authors is a Kosovar Albanian and I think that I can speak for all co-authors that we are really not interested in any childish quarrels on the Eupedia page.
    Another ad hominem. Judging by your whataboutistic behaviour I can safely assume you have not looked into the G25 coordinates or the general autosomal analysis of the sample in question. You have also not looked into the mismatching of the actual correct TMRCA of the mtDNA and the wrong non raciocarbon dating I just mentioned. You can run the G25 code at home and do not need a lab for it.

    You have just proven that you have absolutely no expertise in population genetics and your only argumentation relies on insulting others. Very professional.

    Have a good day and best regards.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-06-22
    Posts
    27

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a1b1a1-P109*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Country: Czech Republic



    Do you understand that our study was not about some sample from the Bezdanjača Cave, but about height in the Western Balkans? Do you think that I have time to examine every DNA sample on the Ancient DNA website? Apparently, you have a plenty of time because this unfortunate sample was crucial for your neverending quarrels on this forum.

    Leave me out of this, please. I'm really not interested.

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