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Thread: Neolithic farmers from germany Derenburg LBK

  1. #1
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Neolithic farmers from germany Derenburg LBK

    Abstract
    Human expansion in the course of the Neolithic transition in western Eurasia has been one of the major topics in ancient DNA research in the last 10 years. Multiple studies have shown that the spread of agriculture and animal husbandry from the Near East across Europe was accompanied by large-scale human expansions. Moreover, changes in subsistence and migration associated with the Neolithic transition have been hypothesized to involve genetic adaptation. Here, we present high quality genome-wide data from the Linear Pottery Culture site Derenburg-Meerenstieg II (DER) (N = 32 individuals) in Central Germany. Population genetic analyses show that the DER individuals carried predominantly Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry and a very limited degree of local hunter-gatherer admixture, similar to other early European farmers. Increasing the Linear Pottery culture cohort size to ∼100 individuals allowed us to perform various frequency- and haplotype-based analyses to investigate signatures of selection associated with changes following the adoption of the Neolithic lifestyle. In addition, we developed a new method called Admixture-informed Maximum-likelihood Estimation for Selection Scans that allowed us test for selection signatures in an admixture-aware fashion. Focusing on the intersection of results from these selection scans, we identified various loci associated with immune function (JAK1, HLA-DQB1) and metabolism (LMF1, LEPR, SORBS1), as well as skin color (SLC24A5, CD82) and folate synthesis (MTHFR, NBPF3). Our findings shed light on the evolutionary pressures, such as infectious disease and changing diet, that were faced by the early farmers of Western Eurasia
    Source:

    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...sac108/6586604

    P.s
    I am with my phone and not a commputer
    But when i look in the supplemetal tables:
    I have good news for torzio and salento
    In our forum
    Individual DER031 belong to y haplogroup
    T1a1

    others are y haplogroups: G,H,C,I2a2
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    e-fgc7391
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Abstract
    Human expansion in the course of the Neolithic transition in western Eurasia has been one of the major topics in ancient DNA research in the last 10 years. Multiple studies have shown that the spread of agriculture and animal husbandry from the Near East across Europe was accompanied by large-scale human expansions. Moreover, changes in subsistence and migration associated with the Neolithic transition have been hypothesized to involve genetic adaptation. Here, we present high quality genome-wide data from the Linear Pottery Culture site Derenburg-Meerenstieg II (DER) (N = 32 individuals) in Central Germany. Population genetic analyses show that the DER individuals carried predominantly Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry and a very limited degree of local hunter-gatherer admixture, similar to other early European farmers. Increasing the Linear Pottery culture cohort size to ∼100 individuals allowed us to perform various frequency- and haplotype-based analyses to investigate signatures of selection associated with changes following the adoption of the Neolithic lifestyle. In addition, we developed a new method called Admixture-informed Maximum-likelihood Estimation for Selection Scans that allowed us test for selection signatures in an admixture-aware fashion. Focusing on the intersection of results from these selection scans, we identified various loci associated with immune function (JAK1, HLA-DQB1) and metabolism (LMF1, LEPR, SORBS1), as well as skin color (SLC24A5, CD82) and folate synthesis (MTHFR, NBPF3). Our findings shed light on the evolutionary pressures, such as infectious disease and changing diet, that were faced by the early farmers of Western Eurasia
    Source:
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...sac108/6586604
    P.s
    I am with my phone and not a commputer
    But when i look in the supplemetal tables:
    I have good news for torzio and salento
    In our forum
    Individual DER031 belong to y haplogroup
    T1a1

    others are y haplogroups: G,H,C,I2a2
    "Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews show that the Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century"

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...05v1.full_.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    "Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews show that the Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century"
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...05v1.full_.pdf
    Interesting the T case in erfurt 14th century
    Ashkenazi community is t1a1 or t1a2 ?
    If it is t1a1 it might be a descendent of the Derenburg Lbk group who absorbed to the jewish community in some point in time

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    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Interesting the T case in erfurt 14th century
    Ashkenazi community is t1a1 or t1a2 ?
    If it is t1a1 it might be a descendent of the Derenburg Lbk group who absorbed to the jewish community in some point in time
    unless he was adopted :) … I also know of y Ts Karsdorf LBKs.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Abstract
    Human expansion in the course of the Neolithic transition in western Eurasia has been one of the major topics in ancient DNA research in the last 10 years. Multiple studies have shown that the spread of agriculture and animal husbandry from the Near East across Europe was accompanied by large-scale human expansions. Moreover, changes in subsistence and migration associated with the Neolithic transition have been hypothesized to involve genetic adaptation. Here, we present high quality genome-wide data from the Linear Pottery Culture site Derenburg-Meerenstieg II (DER) (N = 32 individuals) in Central Germany. Population genetic analyses show that the DER individuals carried predominantly Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry and a very limited degree of local hunter-gatherer admixture, similar to other early European farmers. Increasing the Linear Pottery culture cohort size to ∼100 individuals allowed us to perform various frequency- and haplotype-based analyses to investigate signatures of selection associated with changes following the adoption of the Neolithic lifestyle. In addition, we developed a new method called Admixture-informed Maximum-likelihood Estimation for Selection Scans that allowed us test for selection signatures in an admixture-aware fashion. Focusing on the intersection of results from these selection scans, we identified various loci associated with immune function (JAK1, HLA-DQB1) and metabolism (LMF1, LEPR, SORBS1), as well as skin color (SLC24A5, CD82) and folate synthesis (MTHFR, NBPF3). Our findings shed light on the evolutionary pressures, such as infectious disease and changing diet, that were faced by the early farmers of Western Eurasia
    Source:
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...sac108/6586604
    P.s
    I am with my phone and not a commputer
    But when i look in the supplemetal tables:
    I have good news for torzio and salento
    In our forum
    Individual DER031 belong to y haplogroup
    T1a1

    others are y haplogroups: G,H,C,I2a2

    I knew of the 3 x T1a1 in Karsdorf

    Karsdorf ( 7100yBP - Early Neolithic ) LBK Culture

    I0795 ( 7076 ± 90 yBP )
    Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
    mtDNA: H1 or H1au1b*


    I0797 ( 7087 ± 725 yBP )
    Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
    mtDNA: H46b


    Kars537 ( 6958 ± 49 yBP )
    Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
    mtDNA: J1c6a


    Do you have more info on DER031 ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I knew of the 3 x T1a1 in Karsdorf
    Karsdorf ( 7100yBP - Early Neolithic ) LBK Culture
    I0795 ( 7076 ± 90 yBP )
    Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
    mtDNA: H1 or H1au1b*
    I0797 ( 7087 ± 725 yBP )
    Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
    mtDNA: H46b
    Kars537 ( 6958 ± 49 yBP )
    Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
    mtDNA: J1c6a
    Do you have more info on DER031 ?
    From supplemental table 1:

    DER031 -grave 34 - 6141+/-33
    -
    5211-4993 - snp L162-T1a1- Hv+16311


    P.s
    This the site in modern germany
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derenburg
    I think it is not that far from the karsdorf site
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf

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    Thanks Kingjohn. Interesting paper, I will definitely give it a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Interesting the T case in erfurt 14th century
    Ashkenazi community is t1a1 or t1a2 ?
    If it is t1a1 it might be a descendent of the Derenburg Lbk group who absorbed to the jewish community in some point in time

    as per the Ashkenazi DNA site ..............they state a zero jews for T1a2-Z19945 branch that Salento and I belong to ...................

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    From supplemental table 1:
    DER031 -grave 34 - 6141+/-33
    -
    5211-4993 - snp L162-T1a1- Hv+16311

    P.s
    This the site in modern germany
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derenburg
    I think it is not that far from the karsdorf site
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf


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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    From supplemental table 1:
    DER031 -grave 34 - 6141+/-33
    -
    5211-4993 - snp L162-T1a1- Hv+16311

    P.s
    This the site in modern germany
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derenburg
    I think it is not that far from the karsdorf site
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf
    It is the Salzland area, the land of the salt.
    It became wealthy since the late neolithic due to the salt trade.
    It has a complicated history.
    Megalithic, globular amphora and corded ware elites were competing for control over that area and their trade routes.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Elbe_basin.png


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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzlandkreis

    along the lower Saale, a tributary of the Elbe river

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    y haplogroups and mtdna in the site from 32 remains

    DER002-grave 42- y haplogroup G2a2b2b2- mtdna w5 ( second degree related DER013)
    DER003- grave 39- mtdna t2b ( second degree related to DER006)
    DER004-grave 17- y haplogroup H2- mtdna k1a

    DER005-grave 21-6147+/-32 5209-5001 -mtdna N1a1a1a
    DER006- grave 40-y haplogroup G2a2b2b2- mtdna j1c (second degree related to DER003)

    DER007- grave 33-mtdna N1a1a1
    DER009-grave 29- 6125+/-235209-4957- y haplogroup H2 - mtdna HV+16311

    DER010-grave30- 6093+/-22 5205-4937-mtdna N1a1a1a3
    DER011-grave10-y haplogroup H2- mtdna H1j( son DER022)
    DER012-grave43- mtdna T2b23( second degree related DER014 and DER015)
    DER013-grave18- y haplogroup G2a2b2b2- mtdna W5 ( second degree related DER002)

    DER014-grave19- 6015+/-35 5000-4797- y haplogroup H2- mtdna v1a( brother DER015,second degree related DER012)
    DER015-grave 20- mtdna V1A( sister DER014, second degree related DER012)
    DER017-grave 15- y haplogroup C1a2b-mtdna H2a2
    DER018-grave 22- mtdna X2b( daughter DER019)

    DER019-grave 22-mtdna X2B(mother DER018)
    DER020-grave 12- 6101+/-34 5209-4905 -y haplogroup H2 -mtdna H1o
    DER021-grave 26-y haplogroup I2a2b- mtdna HV+16311

    DER022-grave 32- 6151+/-27 5209-5007- mtdna H1j( mother DER011)
    DER023-grave 37-mtdna J1c
    DER024-grave 38- 6142+/-34 5211-4993 -mtdna T2e
    DER026-grave 46-y haplogrup H2- mtdna K1a3a3
    DER028-mtdnaT2b
    DER029-grave 9 -mtdna H88
    DER030-grave 35- y haplogroup H2- mtdna R12'21
    DER031-grave 34-6141+/-33 5211-4993-y haplogroup T1a1- mtnda HV+16311

    DER032-grave 31-6257+/-40 5316-5066-y haplogroup H2- mtdna HV+16311
    DER033-grave 48-mtdna J1c

    DER034-grave 44-mtdna K2a
    DER035-grave 47-mtdna U5a
    DER036-grave 47-mtdna T2+16189
    DER037-grave49-6148+/-33 5210-5000-mtdna T2b

    p.s
    it look like some of them were relatives of eachother

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    "We primarily found G2a2 and H2 Y haplogroups associated with Neolithic farmers (Lacan et al. 2011; Haak et al. 2015; Rivollat et al. 2020; Rohrlach et al. 2021). We also observed one male with the Y-chromosome I haplotype that is generally common among European HGs and therefore considered as a signal of male HG ancestry contribution but also reported in lower frequency from Iberian and French Neolithic individuals (Lipson et al. 2017; Rivollat et al. 2020)."

    "
    In general, we found consistently low levels of inbreeding across all early Neolithic groups in Central Europe, suggesting that EEFs lived in larger groups or groups with an extended mating network, and ultimately stemmed from a source deme with a large effective population size (Ringbauer et al. 2020)."

    "
    Together with the results from our analysis of the lack of inbreeding and inter-site biological relatedness, this further suggests that the early Neolithic LBK farmers were part of a larger population, did not practice close biologically related mating, and prevented inbreeding. In comparison, based on limited biological relatedness among individuals in intramural burials, it has been suggested that Neolithic Anatolia was not a strictly kin-based society (Pilloud and Larsen 2011; Yaka et al. 2021)."

    "
    On one hand, vitamin D is synthesized upon UVR exposure (Jablonski and Chaplin 2010), and, on the other hand, folate has to be protected from photolysis from UVR (He et al. 2009). Our findings support the idea of coevolution of folate synthesis and lighter pigmentation in the EF, compared to the HGs and the African outgroup populations. Moreover, our study narrows down the timing of selection on SLC24A5 to after the split between the European HGs and the ancestors of the early Neolithic farmers. Of note, European HGs are characterized by a darker skin color, even though they occupied higher latitudes with low UVR exposure. The current hypothesis is that the diet based on meat/fish served as a sufficient source of vitamin D in higher latitudes for the HGs, similar with what has been shown in the Inuit and other Arctic indigenous populations (Kolahdooz et al. 2013; Schaebel et al. 2015).We analyzed SNPs that are associated with pigmentation in the ancient populations separately (LBK, Anatolia_N, WHG) (table 1), since we hypothesized that migration to a higher latitude from Anatolia to central Europe could be associated with positive selection for light skin color phenotype. Based on the comparison between LBK and Anatolia_N, we did not see a major shift in skin color SNPs that are involved in determining lighter skin pigmentation, suggesting that this adaptation already happened in Anatolia/the Near East during the transition to a sedentary farming lifestyle."
    It looks to me as if selection for blue eyes was also taking place in Anatolia.

    Why didn't they give the percentages for the remaining 2/3?


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    With only 24.7kb of DNA on ENA there is no way to explore the traits of the individuals or proof the statements of the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    y haplogroups and mtdna in the site from 32 remains
    DER002-grave 42- y haplogroup G2a2b2b2- mtdna w5 ( second degree related DER013)
    DER003- grave 39- mtdna t2b ( second degree related to DER006)
    DER004-grave 17- y haplogroup H2- mtdna k1a

    DER005-grave 21-6147+/-32 5209-5001 -mtdna N1a1a1a
    DER006- grave 40-y haplogroup G2a2b2b2- mtdna j1c (second degree related to DER003)

    DER007- grave 33-mtdna N1a1a1
    DER009-grave 29- 6125+/-235209-4957- y haplogroup H2 - mtdna HV+16311

    DER010-grave30- 6093+/-22 5205-4937-mtdna N1a1a1a3
    DER011-grave10-y haplogroup H2- mtdna H1j( son DER022)
    DER012-grave43- mtdna T2b23( second degree related DER014 and DER015)
    DER013-grave18- y haplogroup G2a2b2b2- mtdna W5 ( second degree related DER002)

    DER014-grave19- 6015+/-35 5000-4797- y haplogroup H2- mtdna v1a( brother DER015,second degree related DER012)
    DER015-grave 20- mtdna V1A( sister DER014, second degree related DER012)
    DER017-grave 15- y haplogroup C1a2b-mtdna H2a2
    DER018-grave 22- mtdna X2b( daughter DER019)

    DER019-grave 22-mtdna X2B(mother DER018)
    DER020-grave 12- 6101+/-34 5209-4905 -y haplogroup H2 -mtdna H1o
    DER021-grave 26-y haplogroup I2a2b- mtdna HV+16311

    DER022-grave 32- 6151+/-27 5209-5007- mtdna H1j( mother DER011)
    DER023-grave 37-mtdna J1c
    DER024-grave 38- 6142+/-34 5211-4993 -mtdna T2e
    DER026-grave 46-y haplogrup H2- mtdna K1a3a3
    DER028-mtdnaT2b
    DER029-grave 9 -mtdna H88
    DER030-grave 35- y haplogroup H2- mtdna R12'21
    DER031-grave 34-6141+/-33 5211-4993-y haplogroup T1a1- mtnda HV+16311

    DER032-grave 31-6257+/-40 5316-5066-y haplogroup H2- mtdna HV+16311
    DER033-grave 48-mtdna J1c

    DER034-grave 44-mtdna K2a
    DER035-grave 47-mtdna U5a
    DER036-grave 47-mtdna T2+16189
    DER037-grave49-6148+/-33 5210-5000-mtdna T2b
    p.s
    it look like some of them were relatives of eachother
    Years ago..I read that these people where chasing the Red Deer ( living in these areas ) for meat ..............they banded in groups of about 10...usually 7 men and 3 women ............a women in the group would over time have a child from a different man in the group.....scenario is not hard to accept
    Last edited by torzio; 10-06-22 at 01:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Yes ago..I read that these people where chasing the Red Deer ( living in these areas ) for meat ..............they banded in groups of about 10...usually 7 men and 3 women ............a women in the group would over time have a child from a different man in the group.....scenario is not hard to accept


    here are the bam files of this paper :

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...488?show=reads

    maybe you can try to upload DER031 to yfull
    he will probably end with the same branch as the krasdorf individual

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y63197/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    here are the bam files of this paper :
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...488?show=reads
    maybe you can try to upload DER031 to yfull
    he will probably end with the same branch as the krasdorf individual
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y63197/
    So,......DER031 is with the ancient T in YFull of Kars537 ( which I presented to you in an earlier post #5)

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    So,......DER031 is with the ancient T in YFull of Kars537 ( which I presented to you in an earlier post #5)
    We can't be sure
    But since you are a member in anthrogenica
    You can ask one of experts there( pribislav, david busch, rafc ,adamm)to have a look at his bam file in the link in my previews post

    P.s
    it is very likely DER031 will be in krasdorf branch
    In yfull
    But they need to check him to confirm that
    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-06-22 at 14:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    here are the bam files of this paper :

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...488?show=reads

    maybe you can try to upload DER031 to yfull
    he will probably end with the same branch as the krasdorf individual

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y63197/

    ... as of now he can't, the downloaded .bam / .fastq files are empty, ... the Dod. k12 coordinates were produced from their alternative data files.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post649178

    ... other data files: https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/dataset.x...17617/3.HOKI5I

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Years ago..I read that these people where chasing the Red Deer ( living in these areas ) for meat ..............they banded in groups of about 10...usually 7 men and 3 women ............a women in the group would over time have a child from a different man in the group.....scenario is not hard to accept
    Uneasy to check. And 3 woman for 7 guy is very low to maintain cohesion in a group, IMO. And how can we verify this sharing of women was so well accepted then? Except maybe if this sharing was the only mean to maintain cohesion in survival conditions and in a small group? I stay puzzled here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Years ago..I read that these people where chasing the Red Deer ( living in these areas ) for meat ..............they banded in groups of about 10...usually 7 men and 3 women ............a women in the group would over time have a child from a different man in the group.....scenario is not hard to accept
    Could you please provide a source for this conclusion? Sounds rather outlandish.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Uneasy to check. And 3 woman for 7 guy is very low to maintain cohesion in a group, IMO. And how can we verify this sharing of women was so well accepted then? Except maybe if this sharing was the only mean to maintain cohesion in survival conditions and in a small group? I stay puzzled here.
    Indeed, too few women for the men very often leads to instability.

    I don't know if you ever followed what happened to the men on the HMS Bounty, led by Christian Fletcher in a mutiny against their captain. Most hid on Pitcairn island along with some Polynesian men and women. When they were rediscovered only one of the Bounty crew survived. All the rest were dead, having killed each other over various disputes, prominent among them fights over the women, who were much fewer in number.

    It is speculated that part of the reason why, for example, in the Indo-European culture, where powerful chiefs had more than one wife, young men were encouraged to go raiding for land and women. It breeds turmoil either within or without.

    The same shows up in polygamous cults here in the U.S. where the elite men just expel their surplus sons when they reach about 17 or 18.

    Not that some cultures don't practice polyandry, but the most common form it takes is fraternal polyandry, where two brothers marry the same woman, i.e. Tibet etc.

    It is mainly practiced in poor families with small landholdings who can't divide the property among the offspring of separate fathers or they'll all face starvation. So they keep their property big by having equal access to the same woman. The property still stays in the blood line, so to speak.

    There's a hint of that kind of thinking among the Jewish ultra-orthodox, if I'm not mistaken. When a man dies, his brother is to marry his brother's widow. It's my understanding that nowadays it only applies to a brother who is unmarried at the time. It's also my understanding that the woman has to be released by the brother if she wishes to marry someone else. It's to continue the bloodline, or perhaps originally also to make sure the widow wouldn't descend into poverty. To clarify, I've never studied the issue, but was told this by my husbands' partner, who is Orthodox.

    At any rate, it's all speculation when we're talking about practices in pre-history. One elite man taking multiple wives has been a common practice in many cultures, but three women for seven men? Why would that even occur? Female and male birth rates skew female if anything, and men get killed in battles.

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    Saw this reasoning on the "first farmers" on a documentary less than a year ago.............it was about hunting red deer in northern/central Germany and after a while on the hunt these groups would get together to farm barley to make an alcoholic beverage to praise their gods...........they would move sites every year ......................it was also about the temporary living areas these archeologists discovered.

    I then read about this theory

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Uneasy to check. And 3 woman for 7 guy is very low to maintain cohesion in a group, IMO. And how can we verify this sharing of women was so well accepted then? Except maybe if this sharing was the only mean to maintain cohesion in survival conditions and in a small group? I stay puzzled here.
    There where many of these groups roaming around Northern and central Germany hunting Red Deer

    one of the many sites I read up on

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._South_Germany

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    There where many of these groups roaming around Northern and central Germany hunting Red Deer

    one of the many sites I read up on

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._South_Germany
    Is this the documentary to which you were referring?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-bQx0ZtHUw

    I watched it and there's no mention of any such practices.

    I also just read the article you cited and there's nothing about marriage practices.

    Perhaps you could check your files for the pertinent citation.

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