David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[ihype02]

Do you mean they pulled them South? ;)

Well, of course they did pull them North. Even if people argue the uniparentals are too low, they are still significant on a low level, with the lowest of all estimates. So they had an effect, probably just not the big one some people propose.



Agreed, but then again: We don't know the actual effect of both on the total population. Its still guesswork and might differ from region to region.



Might be not as clear cut as you suggest it is. You need a proper reference for the locals, the newcomers and the additional gene flow which might have taken place.

My conclusion: This debate is not over yet, but some claims (just some quarters, not important for Italy as a whole) are being falsified by now. It mattered even for areas like Viminacium and Linz, Upper Austria. Levantine shifted and exotic individuals will pop up as far as the Netherlands and Western Germany too.
It was a real thing, it had an effect. Talking about haplogroups, we can still find some of those more exotic haplogroups in all those places to this day in the modern autochthonous population. So its not all gone. Even on the contrary, due to later migration, it spread to areas outside of the Roman zone.

I just meant that Germanic admixture was not that significant as you implied.

My explanation is the only possible option.

[Angela]

I'll say it again.

U-106 and I1 are not a big enough presence in Toscana to change those "Imperial Age" Tuscans into Modern Tuscans.

You can't even say that Germanic women changed the population, because the Lombard laws prohibited the marriage of Lombard women with local males. The Goths weren't any better in that regard even though they left Romans in charge of the administration of Italia. People ought to read them some day; sounds like South Africa under apartheid. The Anglo Saxons instituted similar laws after they took over Britain.

So, either those "Imperial Age Tuscans" were not representative, or the locals from the mountains came down and bred them out of existence, or both.

Lots of places to hide from invaders in Italy. Kesselring, that war criminal, made our mountains his last line of defense in his "fighting retreat". They couldn't find our partisans even though they were in the same mountains harassing their troops, so he passed an edict: ten civilians executed for every German soldier killed. Whole villages of women and children were slaughtered along with their priests.

That's why we haven't been able to feed ourselves without imports for most of our history. It was even worse in Roman times because most of the now green Po Valley was a fever ridden swamp until they drained it.



The Gothic Line:

[Philjames100]

Who are they? I think they are related with seima turbino expansion:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...adiocarbon.png

unetice culture:

You'll like this:

[lynxbythetv]

whats the explanation for heavily J2 populations not speaking a semetic la guage nor an indo european one ?

talking about the chechens and ingush.

[peloponnesian]

whats the explanation for heavily J2 populations not speaking a semetic la guage nor an indo european one ?

talking about the chechens and ingush.

J2 is older than these linguistic groupings

[Riverman]

whats the explanation for heavily J2 populations not speaking a semetic la guage nor an indo european one ?
talking about the chechens and ingush.

J seems to have been concentrated in and around the Caucasus, but how quickly things can change you can see in the Semites, which came up when E1b1b Afro-Asiatics fused with a J1 population and in turn J1 became the dominant Semitic language which spread in the Bronze Age to the rest of Arabia.

[Philjames100]

Who are they? I think they are related with seima turbino expansion:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...adiocarbon.png

unetice culture:

To clarify, the point of my post was the snake depicted on the sword.

[johen]

To clarify, the point of my post was the snake depicted on the sword.

You'll like this:

Thanks, I guessed that way and I saw triangle patterns on dagger handle. Thus I posted it on my thread yesterday.
I also think the snake is thunderbolt;
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...979#post649979

I think this pattern of triangle(horse mane) up and two snake(diamond) down originated from seima turbino, still surviving in Ukraine:





same pattern of triangle and two snakes on dagger:


https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/tr...y-8167441.html

relevant PIE culture:

"Traces of the devotion to the horse’s head on the part of the Indo-European peoples can be found in the archaic Roman ritual practice, Roman legends, Greek “feasts of the dead,” or Avar burial rituals; such a devotion has survived among the Byelorussians living in Polesie, etc.(Ivanov, 1989: 79, 80, 83, 84). During the “feasts of the dead” – ancient Greek wakes – the feast would take place in front of the horse’s head, which is represented on funerary reliefs (Sternberg, 1916: 183). At these ancient nekrodipnoses, the deceased appeared to be feasting in the midst of his family and servants; the representations of a horse’s head and a snake were present there (Freidenberg,1997: 62). E.E. Kuzmina interpreted them as expressing the notion “of the ability of the horse, especially its head,to revive the person” (Kuzmina, 1977: 42), whereas O.M. Freidenberg believed that “the semantics of thesnake and horse as the underground principles has long been revealed” (Freidenberg, 1997: 62)."

"The Rig Veda has preserved the stable residue of the previous, more archaic semantic meaning of vajra . The Indo-Aryan concept of vajra goes back to the “horse-headed” insignia of the social and sacred leader similarbto the magic attribute functionally comparable to the tambourines or “horse” canes (among the Buryats) of the shamans. It is possible that the idea of the involvement of the horse’s head in the seat of supernatural knowledge and in implementation of the divine providence was formed at this stage. A “horse-headed” vajra in the hands of a person with high social status, not only clothed with authority of the leader, but also with the priestly prerogatives was the personification and substitution of such qualities of a supreme deity."

"A yoke of twin horses is associated with the Indo-European concept of the Heavenly Twins, one of whom is mortal, represented among the Greeks"

[enter_tain]

I'm really curious to see how much of that Roman Imperial admixture there are in modern Balkan populations.

I expect the Albanian samples in the Iron Age to be similar to the Montenegro one without Roman Imperial admixture. So a bit more west/north-west shifted.

Greek samples would also show similar admixture.

[Riverman]

I'm really curious to see how much of that Roman Imperial admixture there are in modern Balkan populations.

I'd say this can only be properly assessed with better references. In an ideal case you get some first generations mixed individuals on the table. Because rather minor, yet still significant, admixture can be hidden in the mix quite nicely. Even more so if the other component is way more extreme (like Baltoslavic and Germanic), pulling the total in a more average component's direction.

But I think there is no way any Balkan population could have escaped it, because it was reaching much further to the North.

[A. Papadimitriou]

Why do you think that? It would fit nicely with Greek mythology, Danaus etc.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...8actual%29.jpg

They have horses and the chariot, rhyta (not zoomorphic ones found later among Greeks and Iranics), more like the steatite "Minoan" ones in shape, amphorae etc

I also think they have a male dress more similar to the continental Greek one (but longer) and a cap which is similar to Greek pilos, Modern Albanian plis etc (two, three variations of the cap including one with a more shield like shape).

By the way, the name Retjenu can theoretically be related to Kreta, Kretania (ki-re-ta-na is attested in Linear A) etc while the name Keftiu which is associated to Minoans by some is more likely to have meant Cappadocians or be related to that term, so maybe it had nothing to do with Crete itself.

It is actually very clear that Greeks associated Epaphus with Hyksos Apepi. The myth is consistent with a movement of Hyksos related people to Greece after being expelled from Egypt but it could have been a back migration of an Aegean related group.

[Philjames100]

It is actually very clear that Greeks associated Epaphus with Hyksos Apepi.

And Epaphus is the son of Io who is the daughter of Inachus, the king of Argos, who is the son of Oceanus (or Okeanus). (1)

Ba3XmJv.jpg

What do you think about this:

Oceanus = oh-KAY-an-us (2)

Ὠκεανός (Oceanus): "Of uncertain origin. Beekes suggests a proto-form *-kay-an‎-" (3),(4, p.xxxv)

----

'Khyan (also Khayan) ... was a Hyksos king of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt, ruling over Lower Egypt in the second half of the 17th century BCE. ... objects with his name have been found at Knossos and Hattusha indicating diplomatic contacts with Crete and the Hittites. ... Khyan's rule marks the peak of the Hyksos kingdom power.' (4)

"Khayan's Horus name is Anak-Idbu, meaning 'Embracer of the coastlands'." (5)

Khayan = Oceanus?

[Mmiikkii]

We will see what he bases that on.
If it's conclussive evidence or only superficial conclussions.
He seems a bit biased to put the origin of IndoEuropeans in a very specific location.

[A. Papadimitriou]

And Epaphus is the son of Io who is the daughter of Inachus, the king of Argos, who is the son of Oceanus (or Okeanus). (1)

Ba3XmJv.jpg

What do you think about this:

Oceanus = oh-KAY-an-us (2)

Ὠκεανός (Oceanus): "Of uncertain origin. Beekes suggests a proto-form *-kay-an‎-" (3),(4, p.xxxv)

----

'Khyan (also Khayan) ... was a Hyksos king of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt, ruling over Lower Egypt in the second half of the 17th century BCE. ... objects with his name have been found at Knossos and Hattusha indicating diplomatic contacts with Crete and the Hittites. ... Khyan's rule marks the peak of the Hyksos kingdom power.' (4)

"Khayan's Horus name is Anak-Idbu, meaning 'Embracer of the coastlands'." (5)

Khayan = Oceanus?

I cannot accept it or reject it. I think though that the word okeanos should be related to proto-Greek *ku(w)aneos 'blue'. There seem to be related words in Hittite and Sumerian but I think the meaning attested in Greek should be the primary meaning but it should be from a language different from PIE (but not necessarily completely unrelated). Not from Sumerian though in my opinion.

[elghund]

The lecture was scheduled for today. Yesterday in Israel.



Where's the beef?

[Jovialis]

The lecture was scheduled for today. Yesterday in Israel.



Where's the beef?

That's right, I forgot when it was being held. Are there any excerpts or clips available?

[kingjohn]

No,
But erikl86 from anthrogenica
Was there if i understand his post
The southern arc paper will be splitt to 3 different papers each with specific period

Erikl86:
I will just elaborate what periods the three papers will be:
First paper - Neolithic.
Second paper - Chalcolithic to Bronze Age.
Third paper - Historical period.
There are going to be more than 700 new samples from all over the Southern Arc region, I don't know how many per period as Reich didn't go into that kind of details.
Also a lot of samples from locations we waited a long time to see.
And also samples from already covered locations but of periods we didn't have before.
All in all very exciting papers.
He didn't mention a specific date but seeing how entire slides were from the already written papers, and how it was mentioned as they will be out "soon", it is good estimation that the papers will be out in a few weeks.
David Reich requested at the opening of the lecture not to take pictures and not to write down any notes as these are soon to be published and just be patient. Perhaps he was requested to do so by the peer review committee who reviewed the papers - I don't know. I'm going to respect his request though and we should all be patient, hopefully everything will be out soon.
I don't think what I "revealed" here in any way breaches that request, btw.

[Jovialis]

700 new samples from all over the Southern Arc region.

Beautiful,

How the hell can people say with confidence that it "doesn't match" the data, when they haven't even seen the data presented? Did they think Reich was just basing it off of what was already available?

People accuse me of being too orthodox when it comes to genetic papers, and in the same breath think they know it all based on already published data. Nevertheless, I said all along that I am sure Reich will be presenting new data to support his views.

Human behavior online constantly reminds me of this fact:

[Moja]

I think David Reich will prove:

1. Ancient people of Mugan plain in the northwest of Iran and south of Azerbaijan (Akkadian Mukania) were Mycenaean Greeks.

2. Ancient people of Gilan province in the northwest of Iran (Pliny Gaeli) were Gaelic/Celtic people.

3. Ancient people Luristan province in the west of Iran (Akkadian Alluria/Elluria) were Illyrian people.

4. Ancient people of Fars province in the south of Iran (Akkadian/Sumerian Parhasi) were Persian/Iranian people.

5. Ancient people Kerman and Kermanshah provinces (Herodotus Germanii were Germanic people.

6. Ancient peoole of Hidali in Akkadian and Elamite sources (Old Persian Idali/Itali were Italic people.

7. Ancient people of Qazvin province (Akkadian [b]Kashu, ancient Greek Caspian) were Kashubian Slavic people.

8. Ancient people Tehran (Tukharan) province (Akkadian Tukri) were Tocharian people.

Armenians and Indians lived almost in their modern lands.

[Jovialis]

It is also no surprise to me that Anatolia was genetically impregnable throughout the ChL and Bronze Age. This was apparent to me from the findings of damgaard et al. 2018


I have maintained that Anatolia_ChL and Anatolia_BA the basically the same, and mostly just Anatolia_N and CHG. I have said it here, and on anthrogenica, and have been ridiculed for it. I am ecstatic to see the undisputable confirmation.

[real expert]

No,
But erikl86 from anthrogenica
Was there if i understand his post
The southern arc paper will be splitt to 3 different papers each with specific period
Erikl86:
I will just elaborate what periods the three papers will be:
First paper - Neolithic.
Second paper - Chalcolithic to Bronze Age.
Third paper - Historical period.
There are going to be more than 700 new samples from all over the Southern Arc region, I don't know how many per period as Reich didn't go into that kind of details.
Also a lot of samples from locations we waited a long time to see.
And also samples from already covered locations but of periods we didn't have before.
.

Thanks kingjohn for showing us this interesting info. These 3 massive papers will be a new subject of a hot debate among the archaeogenetic community. However, I just hope the whole thing was not just much ado about nothing.

[real expert]

It is also no surprise to me that Anatolia was genetically impregnable throughout the ChL and Bronze Age. This was apparent to me from the findings of damgaard et al. 2018


I have maintained that Anatolia_ChL and Anatolia_BA the basically the same, and mostly just Anatolia_N and CHG. I have said it here, and on anthrogenica, and have been ridiculed for it. I am ecstatic to see the undisputable confirmation.

If your theory gets validated then the AG Mods owe you an apology. But I doubt they'll admit their "defeat" and un-ban you.

[Angela]

Have they ever admitted they were wrong about the Etruscans? They claimed they were 1st millennium B.C. migrants from Anatolia, and Middle Eastern; a LOT of people did, no matter how much archaeological and historical evidence we threw at them.

Lots of people banned over that, too, so there's your answer.

[real expert]

Have they ever admitted they were wrong about the Etruscans? They claimed they were 1st millennium B.C. migrants from Anatolia, and Middle Eastern; a LOT of people did, no matter how much archaeological and historical evidence we threw at them.

Lots of people banned over that, too, so there's your answer.

Well, that’s why I wrote that I doubt that this time the AG Mods will have the decency to admit that they got it wrong and unban Jovialis and others. Banning Jovialis because of this topic was actually ridiculous in the first place.

[Jovialis]

They actually had accused me of sophistry, ironically. I guess sophistry means quoting academic papers to support my argument, and not deferring to G25. It's all good, even if they unbanned me, I would never post there again.