Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 13 of 49 FirstFirst ... 3111213141523 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 325 of 1205

Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

  1. #301
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Aren't you doing what Davidski is doing, but in the opposite direction?

    PIE is the greatest language family in the history of the world. Discovering its urheimat would be one of the most important findings in the history of archeology.
    Enter_tain: My quick take on this, which is in line with what Angela wrote, is how the academics conduct research. So lets take Prof. Reich for example who is an expert in Ancient DNA. You read the extant literature from various fields (Archeology, Anthropology) and the Genetics field to understand what has been empirically documented and you formulate a testable hypothesis and then find the Data (in this case Ancient Genomes) to test it. I am looking at an article in 2000 from the Archeological Institute of American Archeology (July/August edition, US $ 4.95). On the cover is a statement "Exclusive Provocative New Theory: Fate of the Neanderthals" An article by the Portuguese Archeologist Joao Zilhao proposed that Neanderthals and early Homo Sapiens admixed. He based this on some of the morphological and phenotypes in modern Europeans that he argued could only have come from Neanderthals who adapted to Eurasian climates well before the arrival of Homo Sapiens.

    Paabo and Reich himself, as he writes in his book Who we Are and how we got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past (2018) did not believe that early Homo Sapiens in Europe and Neanderthals admixed. But when the technology was available to sequence the Neanderthal genome in 2010, Reich who was involved in that project saw the evidence supporting what the Archeologist were saying 10 years before, if not earlier. So Reich in his book was like well is this true and as he states (I am paraphrasing), the Neanderthal admixture (and then Denisovan as well) with Homo Sapiens in Eurasia has been found in every study since the original one in 2010. So did Reich, who held to a theory that no such admixture likely happened prior to 2010, once the evidence was clear that it did happen, he had to acknowledge what the DNA evidence suggested.

    Regarding this notion of the Steppe and Indo European languages. I think Reich as a Scientist is interested in the question, just as he was in the formation of Modern Indians, modern Europeans, etc, etc. That is what he does. He looks at what research has been done based on ancient DNA. If there is no ancient DNA from a specific time period, then what the archeologist and linguist say and from that you formulate testable hypotheses. Then as you find DNA samples or you are able to extract DNA to test the hypotheses, you then document what you find even if it maybe did not confirm what you thought ex ante. That is what a qualified reputable academic scholar does. You don't fudge the results to either confirm or reject your ex ante predictions.

    In the case of some of the Genetics blogsphere. Papers that do not support views of the owner of the blog or site are dismissed and rejected out of hand. Professor Reich in my view will analyze the data and wherever the data suggest is the PIE homeland, that is what he will report. Because once the Genomes are available for other researchers, if he and his team do not report accurately what they have found and the interpretations from the DNA evidence are nonsensical, some other research team of Geneticist, archeologist and Linguist will call them out.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 17-07-22 at 00:32. Reason: editing

  2. #302
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Enter_tain: My quick take on this, which is in line with what Angela wrote, is how the academics conduct research. So lets take Prof. Reich for example who is an expert in Ancient DNA. You read the extant literature from various fields (Archeology, Anthropology) and the Genetics field to understand what has been empirically documented and you formulate a testable hypothesis and then find the Data (in this case Ancient Genomes) to test it. I am looking at an article in 2000 from the Archeological Institute of American Archeology (July/August edition, US $ 4.95). On the cover is a statement "Exclusive Provocative New Theory: Fate of the Neanderthals" An article by the Portuguese Archeologist Joao Zilhao proposed that Neanderthals and early Homo Sapiens admixed. He based this on some of the morphological and phenotypes in modern Europeans that he argued could only have come from Neanderthals who adapted to Eurasian climates well before the arrival of Homo Sapiens.

    Paabo and Reich himself, as he writes in his book Who we Are and how we got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past (2018) did not believe that early Homo Sapiens in Europe and Neanderthals admixed. But when the technology was available to sequence the Neanderthal genome in 2010, Reich who was involved in that project saw the evidence supporting what the Archeologist were saying 10 years before, if not earlier. So Reich in his book was like well is this true and as he states (I am paraphrasing), the Neanderthal admixture (and then Denisovan as well) with Homo Sapiens in Eurasia has been found in every study since the original one in 2010. So did Reich, who held to a theory that no such admixture likely happened prior to 2010, once the evidence was clear that it did happen, he had to acknowledge what the DNA evidence suggested.

    Regarding this notion of the Steppe and Indo European languages. I think Reich as a Scientist is interested in the question, just as he was in the formation of Modern Indians, modern Europeans, etc, etc. That is what he does. He looks at what research has been done based on ancient DNA. If there is no ancient DNA from a specific time period, then what the archeologist and linguist say and from that you formulate testable hypotheses. Then as you find DNA samples or you are able to extract DNA to test the hypotheses, you then document what you find even if it maybe did not confirm what you thought ex ante. That is what a qualified reputable academic scholar does. You don't fudge the results to either confirm or reject your ex ante predictions.

    In the case of some of the Genetics blogsphere. Papers that do not support views of the owner of the blog or site are dismissed and rejected out of hand. Professor Reich in my view will analyze the data and wherever the data suggest is the PIE homeland, that is what he will report. Because once the Genomes are available for other researchers, if he and his team do not report accurately what they have found and the interpretations from the DNA evidence nonsensical, some other research team of Geneticist, archeologist and Linguist will call them out.
    If the evidence is overwhelming, then it's pretty hard to refuse it, since the vast majority of the community will be against you regardless.

    The issue is the "grey areas".

  3. #303
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    If the evidence is overwhelming, then it's pretty hard to refuse it, since the vast majority of the community will be against you regardless.

    The issue is the "grey areas".
    Agreed, but it seems the Lazaridis et al 2014 evidence on the Ancient Greeks, in particular the Myceneans, that there was if I remember only 7 to 16% Steppe ancestry (Minoans had zero) and the Mycenean elite's ancestral source populations/admixture was not different from the non-elites was not then nor now accepted by the Steppe Dogmatist. Not to turn this thread side ways but by Steppe dogmatist I am referring to those on other blogs whose views are largely formed by the theories of Gustave Kossina and Carleton Coon.

  4. #304
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Aren't you doing what Davidski is doing, but in the opposite direction?

    PIE is the greatest language family in the history of the world. Discovering its urheimat would be one of the most important findings in the history of archeology.
    I don't see how you can say that. I recognize that figuring it out is important for linguistics, and for population genetics.

    I also don't have a preference one way or another as to the location of the urheimat, which certainly can't be said of Eurogenes.

    I frankly don't see, however, fwiw, why it would be so devastating if the FIRST STAGE was somewhere around the Southern Caucasus and the Second Stage on the steppe, but hey if it's earth shatteringly important to you, fine; whatever floats your boat.

    For another thing, I have limited time and I find other population genetics topics more interesting, along with literature and music and art and gardening and cooking and, you know, LIFE, so I haven't given it an inordinate amount of my time.

    Certainly, if I had made a life's work of it practically, like Eurogenes, who seems to have no other interests, I wouldn't be basing my opinions on an innate dislike of PIE having anything to do with the Near East. I would, as I presume would any good scientist, try to let the data determine the answers, with as few assumptions as possible.

    Even honest researchers have to be very careful not to let subjectivity of any kind get in the way. Once you attach an assumption to a piece of evidence, you start to bend the narrative to support it; you prejudice yourself.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #305
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    For me, my interest is in the progenitors of Western Civilization, the Ancient Greeks and Romans.


    We can see that steppe was indeed a minority component among them.


    I feel my sentiments on it are like that of Angela.


    I can be modeled about 25% steppe, and I even have an EBA Yamnaya paternal-lineage. I'm proud of all my ancestors, and I think it is neat to have them as part of background. But they are merely a component, and I think it would be weird for me to be obsessed with it in an racist sort of way. It would be awkward for a mostly Native American mestizo to be obsessed with being 25% Iberian in a racist way.

  6. #306
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    704


    Country: Germany



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The only Southern Europeans I've ever seen, and they are few, who are emotionally attached to the issue are pseudo Nazis who hate their own people, and so no longer count as Southern Europeans as far as I'm concerned. As for the Italians among them, I don't know them, or want to know them. If or when I discover that an Italian on the internet has those kinds of beliefs I cut them off.

    Of course, the whole thing is an absurdity. Italians, certainly north and central Italians like me, are about 25% steppe and some southerners are close to that. My dad carried U-152, and my mother U2e. I don't hate the steppe people, as they're a part of me, but I don't give a damn that northerners might be 50% steppe. Anyone who does is an idiot, imo. Nor, to be clear, do I think their arrival was a good thing for Europe. I'm always for the civilized core, never the barbarians from the periphery. That's the case even if it turns out to be true that some of the mercenaries who might have brought down Bronze Age Greece were from Italy. I don't play those kinds of games with ethnicity. Principles come first.

    As for Reich, you obviously don't pay much attention to the many papers on which he has worked which have absolutely NOTHING to do with the origin of IE.
    People often note only the things in which they themselves are interested. I post papers on Near Eastern Genetics, African genetics, Native American genetics etc. It all interests me, although of course I'm particularly interested in Italian genetics. I've studied Italian history and pre-history for decades. That naturally led to an interest in genetics to help explain that pre-history. Doesn't mean I would compromise my integrity out of some agenda. I've spent my life searching for verifiable proof and holding myself to the highest standards of logic and objectivity. I'm not going to change my methods or morality just because Italy is involved.

    That said, yes of course, his Lab would like to solve the puzzle. It's interesting. It doesn't mean he gives a damn what the data shows. Someone who disagrees with you doesn't necessarily do so out of some agenda. When people do that it's glaringly obvious, because the data doesn't support them. When someone keeps being proven wrong by new data it should tell you their predictions stem from what they wish to be true, not to what the data is hinting.



    As for Indians, the only Indian who loves them, to my knowledge, is Razib Khan. It's one of the reasons I unsubscribed from his substack. Writing a paper about their influence in India doesn't mean someone has an emotional attachment to that ancestry. The emotional reaction I see is the hatred most Indians who express an opinion have of the whole idea.

    My point is, that there are very few studies on Ancient African DNA. And exactly ZERO genetic papers on Southern Mesopotamia and Ancient Arabia were published. We have so far only 3 genome data from Ancient Egyptians. To me, Harvard or Manx Planck researchers don't put the same effort into finding genetic evidence for the Urheimat of Proto-Afro-Asiatic as they put on the PIE. But that's only my personal opinion. By the way, I also posted several genetic papers from Paleo to Medieval times from across all continents. Thus nobody can accuse me of being one-sided or fixated on certain populations or groups, I'm not.

    Anyway, I speak from observation and personal experience here, Indians are very obsessed with proving that the original home of Indo-Europeans is India. That's why they strongly dislike the Steppe people. There are certainly some Southern Europeans with right-wing views that are fascinated with PIE. However, plenty of Southern Europeans carry the hp R1b. Hence, they are very curious about the Steppe population and are eager to know more about them since their paternal lineage was born in the Steppe and not because of ideology or anything sinister for that matter. And why shouldn't Southern Europeans not feel close to this part of their ancestry? Southern Europeans as Indo-European speakers have also legitime interest in knowing where the PIE homeland was located. It doesn't matter that they're only 25% Steppe. The point is, that PIE and IE may not matter much to you but to others they do. Each to its own. In my opinion, we should try to avoid painting people who are PIE enthusiasts with the same broad brush.


    I beg to disagree with you that the scientists don't give a damn what the data shows, they surely do. After reading several interviews with geneticists and their politicization of some DNA findings, I'm past believing that scientists are completely bias and agenda-free. That said, as long their bias and agenda don't interfere with their conclusion and interpretation of the data, it's all good.

  7. #307
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see how you can say that. I recognize that figuring it out is important for linguistics, and for population genetics.

    I also don't have a preference one way or another as to the location of the urheimat, which certainly can't be said of Eurogenes.

    I frankly don't see, however, fwiw, why it would be so devastating if the FIRST STAGE was somewhere around the Southern Caucasus and the Second Stage on the steppe, but hey if it's earth shatteringly important to you, fine; whatever floats your boat.

    For another thing, I have limited time and I find other population genetics topics more interesting, along with literature and music and art and gardening and cooking and, you know, LIFE, so I haven't given it an inordinate amount of my time.

    Certainly, if I had made a life's work of it practically, like Eurogenes, who seems to have no other interests, I wouldn't be basing my opinions on an innate dislike of PIE having anything to do with the Near East. I would, as I presume would any good scientist, try to let the data determine the answers, with as few assumptions as possible.

    Even honest researchers have to be very careful not to let subjectivity of any kind get in the way. Once you attach an assumption to a piece of evidence, you start to bend the narrative to support it; you prejudice yourself.
    I agree it's stupid to put personal attachment to people that lived >6000 years ago in a very different time and place. But PIE is the largest language family in the world. These theories have been around for 200 years, and this paper could be the final nail in the coffin. This could be the most important archeological paper in recent history.

    Given that, I also think it doesn't make sense to downplay the importance of this paper as just another case of "intellectual curiosity".

  8. #308
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-03-18
    Posts
    71


    Country: Australia



    whats the ydna of these samples ?

  9. #309
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    My point is, that there are very few studies on Ancient African DNA. And exactly ZERO genetic papers on Southern Mesopotamia and Ancient Arabia were published. We have so far only 3 genome data from Ancient Egyptians. To me, Harvard or Manx Planck researchers don't put the same effort into finding genetic evidence for the Urheimat of Proto-Afro-Asiatic as they put on the PIE. But that's only my personal opinion. By the way, I also posted several genetic papers from Paleo to Medieval times from across all continents. Thus nobody can accuse me of being one-sided or fixated on certain populations or groups, I'm not.

    Anyway, I speak from observation and personal experience here, Indians are very obsessed with proving that the original home of Indo-Europeans is India. That's why they strongly dislike the Steppe people. There are certainly some Southern Europeans with right-wing views that are fascinated with PIE. However, plenty of Southern Europeans carry the hp R1b. Hence, they are very curious about the Steppe population and are eager to know more about them since their paternal lineage was born in the Steppe and not because of ideology or anything sinister for that matter. And why shouldn't Southern Europeans not feel close to this part of their ancestry? Southern Europeans as Indo-European speakers have also legitime interest in knowing where the PIE homeland was located. It doesn't matter that they're only 25% Steppe. The point is, that PIE and IE may not matter much to you but to others they do. Each to its own. In my opinion, we should try to avoid painting people who are PIE enthusiasts with the same broad brush.


    I beg to disagree with you that the scientists don't give a damn what the data shows, they surely do. After reading several interviews with geneticists and their politicization of some DNA findings, I'm past believing that scientists are completely bias and agenda-free. That said, as long their bias and agenda don't interfere with their conclusion and interpretation of the data, it's all good.
    Sorry, I'm afraid you don't know Italians very well. The VAST majority doesn't care at all about any of this. The only reason there are Italian samples that don't come from academic papers is because of the Italo-Americans who want to know about their heritage, a heritage their great grandparents in many cases wanted to forget.

    Most Italians just don't care about "ethnicity" or "nationhood" all that much. Individual relationships are much more important, and family ones, of course. As to their history, in my part of Italy, home in many ways to the Risorgimento, we care about having kicked out foreign rulers, about Mazzini and Garibaldi, but that's not universally true. It's not true in a lot of the south, for example, or the Veneto. Most Italians certainly don't much care about the Romans, other than being vaguely proud of Rome once having been the center of the known world. Our fairs and parades and recreations aren't about Rome, much less some shepherds trundling along on some carts out on the grasslands of Russia. In my part of Italy at least they're about the growth of the city-states, the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Even that is far less important than their individual relationships to other people.

    I can't get a single relative in Italy to take a genetics test, even when I offer to pay for it. They know who they are and where they come from. Their ancestors lived in the same valleys and hills for, in many, many cases at least 1000 years, as in mine. That's good enough for them.

    It's also to some degree good enough for me, except that like Jovialis I extend my interest back to the time of the ancient Greeks and Romans, because that's for me when western civilization began, a civilization I see increasingly under attack.

    Beyond that, it's intellectual curiosity, no more, and as I've said ad nauseam I can't see what difference it makes whether the steppe people dreamed up their language while on the steppe or learned it from some cousins who lived south of the Caucasus.

    Other than racism, not wanting to be "related" in any way to "Middle Easterners" I don't see why it would matter so much emotionally to anyone whether the language was first spoken south of the Caucasus or north of it, which is why I so detest Eurogenes, because he just feeds long dead ideas which should remain buried.

    Of course, in the interests of full transparency, there's also the fact that he said Southern Italians should be run out of Europe. I married one of those Southern Italians, fell in love at first sight, like un colpo di fulmine, and he's very dear to me, as is the woman who was the best friend I ever had, closer than a brother or cousin, an Ashkenazi Jewish woman who died much too young of breast cancer. I miss her every day of my life.

    How should I be expected to feel about that racist demagogue? Are you under any delusions as to what he would do with these genetic tests if he and his friends, the friends who pay him to do this research, should happen to grab political power? You shouldn't, because you sound like an intelligent and rational man.

    All of that said, if the data shows he was right, fine. I have no issue with that. Sometimes what people hope is true turns out to be true, no thanks to them. Even complete monsters morally have been right about some scientific fact or other, or are good writers or musicians. That's the way the world is. I accept it.

  10. #310
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    587


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Agreed, but it seems the Lazaridis et al 2014 evidence on the Ancient Greeks, in particular the Myceneans, that there was if I remember only 7 to 16% Steppe ancestry (Minoans had zero) and the Mycenean elite's ancestral source populations/admixture was not different from the non-elites was not then nor now accepted by the Steppe Dogmatist. Not to turn this thread side ways but by Steppe dogmatist I am referring to those on other blogs whose views are largely formed by the theories of Gustave Kossina and Carleton Coon.
    But Kossina did not place PIE in the steppes.

    And also what is worse, Kossina's view Corded Ware = PIE or
    Anthony's Yamnaya = PIE?

  11. #311
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,871


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    But Kossina did not place PIE in the steppes.

    And also what is worse, Kossina's view Corded Ware = PIE or
    Anthony's Yamnaya = PIE?
    They were probably both right, because PIE likely was one step back, Sredny Stog, the ancestor of both.

  12. #312
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    But Kossina did not place PIE in the steppes.

    And also what is worse, Kossina's view Corded Ware = PIE or
    Anthony's Yamnaya = PIE?
    Why would one be "worse" than the other. Wherever it first developed is wherever it first developed. Period. What is it going to prove beyond that?

  13. #313
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    587


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why would one be "worse" than the other. Wherever it first developed is wherever it first developed. Period. What is it going to prove beyond that?
    It is worse because it makes even less sense. In my opinion both are wrong. But some IE languages could have expanded with Corded Ware.

    Either way, I haven't read Kossina. He seems to be a man of his time, Germano-centric nationalist etc, but if 'steppe-dogmatists' exist today they are more likely to follow Anthony.

  14. #314
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    It is worse because it makes even less sense. In my opinion both are wrong. But some IE languages could have expanded with Corded Ware.

    Either way, I haven't read Kossina. He seems to be a man of his time, Germano-centric nationalist etc, but if 'steppe-dogmatists' exist today they are more likely to follow Anthony.
    Well, Anthony may wind up disappointing them, if a recent article about David Reich is any indication and the journalist got it right.

    ""IF ANYONE CAN untangle that ancient history, it’s Reich. David Anthony, who continues to work with him to find the original speakers of proto-Indo-European (the Yamnaya are thought to have spread the language, but not to have invented it), describes him as “a remarkable man."



  15. #315
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    It is worse because it makes even less sense. In my opinion both are wrong. But some IE languages could have expanded with Corded Ware.

    Either way, I haven't read Kossina. He seems to be a man of his time, Germano-centric nationalist etc, but if 'steppe-dogmatists' exist today they are more likely to follow Anthony.
    In my view, Prof. Anthony is not in anyway similar to Kossina or Coon. By that I mean he does not tie the Steppe and Indo European languages specifically to one modern people today. And we know now that peoples like the Yamnaya, who spread IE languages (Corded Ware as well) were a population formed by admixture from different source populations. EHG, who themselves were formed by mixture between WHG + Ancient North Eurasians [who mixed with ancient East Asians to form Native Americans who came into the Americas] plus CHG and some EEF (from females).

    Gustave Kossina was in reality a proto-nazi. He was an excellent archeologist, not doubt. Migrations did happen as we now know, he was correct their. I am not going to go into all his theories but lets say he was basically held a form of multi-regionalism (DNA has now refuted) whereby Homo Erectus evolved into different Races, then sub-races (with no admixture between groups) and of course the Germans were the direct descendants of the peoples who created Indo European languages. Now I don't think I need to go any further to see where this leads. Now he was an archeologist so he might not have formulated a theory of multi-regionalism with no admixture of populations but his views were in line with that view. The Germans were a pure race, etc and the direct heirs to the peoples who developed Indo-European language

    Coon early on seemed to hold to a form of multi-regionalism which can be fit into what we know today but later on he came to the same form of multi-regionalism that Kossina held. His classifications are over at some sites the place where the majority of discussion takes place. For example, over at the Apricity, anytime I go to get a sense of what is being discussed (I am not a member so can't post), the Anthropology forum has like 1800 active members and Coon's classifications are like the 4 Gospels to a traditional Catholic or Eastern Orthodox person. On the other hand, the section for DNA Scientific papers may have 200 members. Of course in his pyramid, the English were the top of the food chain, the Germans and other Nordics were their close cousins. The Alpine, Mediterranean, Baltic, etc, etc. So in the USA, this is where the term elite WASP is used since the WASP viewed English language, literature, culture and physical phenotypes, etc as the standards that all other peoples are to be measured. Coon would be in my opinion more broadly categorized as a WASP-Nordicist.

  16. #316
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    5 members found this post helpful.
    Is there any definitive proof that Yamnaya paternally descend from R1b EHGs? Let's not forget R1b is a Pan-Eurasian DNA found even in Mesolithic Europe and branches like V88 are native to the Middle East. I know EHGs had R1b, but was it the direct branches that gave rise to Yamnaya?

    Let's not forget even CHGs had ANE admixture. If L23 is some Middle Eastern Y-DNA that made its way to the steppes and mixed with EHG females, that would turn this theory upside down.

  17. #317
    Viscount
    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    723

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    ""IF ANYONE CAN untangle that ancient history, it’s Reich. David Anthony, who continues to work with him to find the original speakers of proto-Indo-European (the Yamnaya are thought to have spread the language, but not to have invented it), describes him as “a remarkable man."
    ^
    This thought has been conveyed in the English language- aka low German. The ancestors of Yamnaya(z2109+)-also found in Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Latins-Italian, Armenians, Potopovka, Iran, did not require a language as much as a hands on skill set, when living a pastoralist steppe life style. For example they had to construct wagons using copper tools, that could carry as much as 2 tons(according to Nick Pattersons latest lecture) They had to figue out a way to use husbandry on the steppe for Turganic-Dom2. They also started using iron along with stele in kurgan burials.

    Suum cuique-ancient ochre elite burial cultures in Seredny Stih phase II, Yamnaya
    - ochre burials with wagons, copper cudgel ,tanged daggers,iron-powder, beads, iron tools -weapons. Turganik Dom2 -horses; horse head shaped scepters, Kernosovkiy idol horse .

  18. #318
    Regular Member Galloman's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-07-22
    Posts
    15


    Country: UK - Jersey



    I've had the privilege to meet him, Reich is also a very sweet man.

  19. #319
    Regular Member Galloman's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-07-22
    Posts
    15


    Country: UK - Jersey



    Are my posts being deleted? Not sure what's happening.

  20. #320
    Regular Member Galloman's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-07-22
    Posts
    15


    Country: UK - Jersey



    Nevermind, just couldn't find it for some reason

  21. #321
    Regular Member Galloman's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-07-22
    Posts
    15


    Country: UK - Jersey



    This is really weird it doesn't show on the thread but if I choose to post, I can see my posts

  22. #322
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    1,513

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Galloman View Post
    This is really weird it doesn't show on the thread but if I choose to post, I can see my posts
    Try reloading the page, might fix it.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  23. #323
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, Anthony may wind up disappointing them, if a recent article about David Reich is any indication and the journalist got it right.

    ""IF ANYONE CAN untangle that ancient history, it’s Reich. David Anthony, who continues to work with him to find the original speakers of proto-Indo-European (the Yamnaya are thought to have spread the language, but not to have invented it), describes him as “a remarkable man."


    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    ^
    This thought has been conveyed in the English language- aka low German. The ancestors of Yamnaya(z2109+)-also found in Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Latins-Italian, Armenians, Potopovka, Iran, did not require a language as much as a hands on skill set, when living a pastoralist steppe life style. For example they had to construct wagons using copper tools, that could carry as much as 2 tons(according to Nick Pattersons latest lecture) They had to figue out a way to use husbandry on the steppe for Turganic-Dom2. They also started using iron along with stele in kurgan burials.
    Silesian, it is language which transmits culture. The development of language is very important for the transmission of this kind of knowledge.

    Of course, doesn't matter what the language is or where it came from.

  24. #324
    Viscount
    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    723

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Silesian, it is language which transmits culture. The development of language is very important for the transmission of this kind of knowledge.

    Of course, doesn't matter what the language is or where it came from.
    Evolution of using copper tools in constructing steppe wheel wagons---

    A religious cult I use to belong to many moons( forbade us to go to University under threat of losing connection with are loved ones and friends for questioning the Noah story and how marsupials ended up in certain areas etc..) use to bring up the marvels of the honey bee. No language, no written books etc. How would one convince some one in a religious cult that the honey comb culture can be made transmitted without using evolution?


    Role of wax temperature[edit]

    Bees use their antennae, mandibles and legs to manipulate the wax during comb construction, while actively warming the wax.[8] During the construction of hexagonal cells, wax temperature is between 33.6–37.6 °C (92.5–99.7 °F), well below the 40 °C (104 °F) temperature at which wax is assumed to be liquid for initiating new comb construction.[8] The body temperature of bees is a factor for regulating an ideal wax temperature for building the comb.[9]

  25. #325
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    21-05-18
    Posts
    53

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-CTS3087
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16

    Country: United States



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Is there any definitive proof that Yamnaya paternally descend from R1b EHGs? Let's not forget R1b is a Pan-Eurasian DNA found even in Mesolithic Europe and branches like V88 are native to the Middle East. I know EHGs had R1b, but was it the direct branches that gave rise to Yamnaya?

    Let's not forget even CHGs had ANE admixture. If L23 is some Middle Eastern Y-DNA that made its way to the steppes and mixed with EHG females, that would turn this theory upside down.
    We have R1b-P297 in Eastern European HGs during the Mesolithic, and P297 is the common ancestor of M269 and Y13200/M73; the oldest V2219/V88 males on record are from Southeastern Europe too. West Asia has a complete dearth of any R1/Q before the LCA and EMBA. In fact, the oldest R1b West Asian male on record is ART038 (3365-3102 calBCE), and he belongs to R1b-V1636*, a subclade/lineage found over 1k years earlier in Eastern Europe, in Khvalynsk and Progress.

    These are the 57 oldest R1b samples on record:

    Palaeolithic_Epigravettian Villabruna, Villabruna, Italy, 12268-11851 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2b, Y-DNA: R1b-L754(xV2219, xP297, xV1636), FuNature2016

    WHG Iboussieres31-2, Aven des Iboussières à Malataverne, Rhône-Alpes, France, 10050-9400 BCE, mtDNA: U5b1, Y-DNA: R1(xR1a; xR1b-PH155, xR1b-V2219, xR1b-V88), MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic I5235, Padina, Serbia, 9221-8548 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2c*, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y127541, MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic I5240, Padina Serbia, 9140-8570 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1c3*, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y127541, MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Vlasa32, Vlasac, Serbia, 7791-7518 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2a, Y-DNA: R1b-L754(xL389, xV88), MarchibioRxiv2020

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic I5237, Padina, Serbia, 9300-5800 BCE, mtDNA: U5a2f1, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y127541, MathiesonNature2018

    Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic I4081, Ostrovul Corbului, Romania, 7581-7191 calBCE, mtDNA: H13, Y-DNA: R1b-L754(xP297, xV1636, xV88), MathiesonNature2018

    Latvia_HG I4630, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 7471-7073 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2c, Y-DNA: R1b-P297(xM269, xY13202), MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_Mesolithic I1734, Vasil'evka, Ukraine, 7451-7056 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2d, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>PF6362*, MathiesonNature2018

    Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic M96, Iron Gates, Schela Cladovei, Romania, 7250-6500 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1c3*, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>FTA35720, GonzalezFortesCurrBiol2017

    Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic M95, Schela Cladovei, Romania, 7125-6603 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2c, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>Y244169, GonzalezFortesCurrBiol2017

    Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic I4655, Schela Cladovei, Romania, 7059-6571 calBCE, mtDNA: K1, Y-DNA: R1(xR1a; xR1b-M269, xR1b-V88), MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic I4916, Hajduka Vodenica, Serbia, 7035-6590 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2b-a3a, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>FTA35720, MathiesonNature2018

    Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic I5408, Ostrovul Corbului, Romania, 7022-6485 calBCE, mtDNA: K1i, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>Y244183*, GonzalezFortesCurrBiol2017

    Romania_IronGates_Mesolithic I5411, Schela Cladovei, Romania, 7000-6300 BCE, mtDNA: U5a1c1, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>Y244183, MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Vlasa37, Vlasac, Serbia, 6767-6461 calBCE, mtDNA: K1f, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88*, Hofmanová2017

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic I5772, Vlasac, Serbia, 7100-5900 BCE, mtDNA: U5a2a, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_N I4666, Lepenski Vir, Serbia, 6222-5912 calBCE, mtDNA: H40, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Latvia_HG I4432, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 6072-5920 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2c*, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>Y240021, MathiesonNature2018

    Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic I5232, Padina, Serbia, 6061-5841 calBCE, mtDNA: K1-a4*, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>FTA35718, MathiesonNature2018

    Latvia_HG I4626, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 5838-5631 calBCE, mtDNA: U2e1, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>Y240021, MathiesonNature2018 (New data; Individual first published in JonesCurrBiol2017)

    Latvia_HG I4439, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 5769-5628 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b1d1*, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>Y240021, MathiesonNature2018

    Samara_HG I0124, Samara Oblast, Russia, 5660-5535 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>Y13202, MathiesonNature2015

    Latvia_HG I4434, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 5611-5382 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2d3, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>FTA35755*, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I4114, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5474-5324 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I5891, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5467-5230 calBCE, mtDNA: U4d, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I5893, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5371-5218 calBCE mtDNA: U5a2a, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I3718, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5359-5212 calBCE mtDNA: U5a1b, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I5879, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5324-5132 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1b, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Italy_HG_N R6, Grotta Continenza, Italy, 5318-5084 calBCE, mtDNA: K1-a, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y8451*, AntonioScience2019

    Germany_EN_LBK XN191, Baden-Württemberg, Germany, 5316-5081 calBCE, mtDNA: I1, Y-DNA: R1b-L754, RivollatSciAdv2020

    Ukraine_N I5890, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5291-5058 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1b, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I5881, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5215-5052 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1b, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2018

    Spain_EN I0411, Els Trocs, Spain, 5298-5059 calBCE, mtDNA: K1a2a, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y8451*, OlaldeScience2019

    Spain_EN I0410, Els Trocs, Spain, 5298-5057 calBCE, mtDNA: T2c1d or T2c1d2, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y8451*, MathiesonNature2015

    Spain_EN CHA002, Cueva de Chaves, Spain, 5302-5061 calBCE, mtDNA: K1a2a, Y-DNA: R1b-V88>Y8451, VillalbaMoucoCurrBiol2019

    Lithuania_EMN_Narva Donkalnis7, Donkalnis, Lithuania, 5374-4939 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2d1, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>Y13202, MittnikNatCommun2018

    Ukraine_N I5878, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5301-5067 calBCE, mtDNA: U4b1a1a, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I4112, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5500-4500 BCE, mtDNA: U5a2a, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I5883, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5209-4998 calBCE, mtDNA: U4a, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Ukraine_N I5892, Dereivka, Ukraine, 5301-4952 calBCE, mtDNA: U4a1, Y-DNA: R1b-L754(xL389), MathiesonNature2018

    Latvia_HG I4628, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 5304-4848 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2d4, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>Y240021, MathiesonNature2018

    Steppe_Eneolithic PG2001, Progress 2, Russia, 4994-4802 calBCE, mtDNA: I3a, Y-DNA: R1b-V1636*, WangNatCommun2019

    Khvalynsk_Eneolithic I0122, Samara Oblast, Russia, 4936-4730 calBCE (FRE: 4500-4300 BCE?), mtDNA: H2a1, Y-DNA: R1b-V1636*, MathiesonNature2015

    Estonia_EMN_Narva Kivisaare3, Kivisaare, Estonia, 4776-4542 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a2d, Y-DNA: R1b-P297(xM269, xY13202), MittnikNatCommun2018

    Bulgaria_C I2181, Smyadovo, Bulgaria, 4606-4447 calBCE, mtDNA: HV15, Y-DNA: R1b-M269, MathiesonNature2018 (no call without Iosif Lazaridis)

    Bulgaria_C I2430, Smyadovo, Bulgaria, 4602-4403 calBCE, mtDNA: K1a26, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219, MathiesonNature2018

    Varna_Eneolithic ANI153, Varna, Bulgaria, 4550-4368 calBCE, mtDNA: U4, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2018

    Latvia_MN I4436, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 4318-4051 calBCE, mtDNA: U4a1a1d, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200>FTA35755*, MathiesonNature2018

    Latvia_MN I4627, Zvejnieki, Latvia, 4311-3978 calBCE, mtDNA: U4a1, Y-DNA: R1b-Y13200*, MathiesonNature2018 (new data; individual first published in JonesCurrBiol2017)

    Steppe_Eneolithic PG2004, Progress 2, Russia, 4240-4047 calBCE, mtDNA: H2, Y-DNA: R1b-V1636*, WangNatCommun2019

    Comb_Ceramic Tamula3, Tamula, Estonia, 3796-3641 calBCE, mtDNA: U4d2, Y-DNA: R1b(xV2219, xV1636, xM269), MittnikNatCommun2018

    Bohemia_TRB I14169, Makotřasy, Czech Republic, 3800-3500 BCE (inferred), mtDNA: N1a1a1a2, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, PapacSciAdv2021

    Bohemia_TRB I14176, Makotřasy, Czech Republic, 3700-3500 BCE (inferred), mtDNA: K1a4a1, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, PapacSciAdv2021

    Bohemia_TRB I14173, Makotřasy, Czech Republic, 3638-3522 BCE (inferred), mtDNA: K1-a4, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, PapacSciAdv2021

    Baalberge_MN I0559, Quedlinburg, Germany, 3654-3527 calBCE, mtDNA: HV, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, MathiesonNature2015

    Blatterhohle_MN I1593, Blatterhole Cave, Germany, 3644-3528 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2a2, Y-DNA: R1b-V2219>V88, LipsonNature2017
    Last edited by Jack Johnson; 18-07-22 at 22:22.

Page 13 of 49 FirstFirst ... 3111213141523 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 401
    Last Post: 26-10-22, 19:25
  2. Southern Arc Myceneans + other Greeks.
    By eupator in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 15-09-22, 12:43
  3. R1b-Z2103s from Southern Arc.
    By eupator in forum R1b
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-09-22, 10:07
  4. David Reich speech on ancient dna
    By Angela in forum Paleogenetics
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 30-05-17, 23:34
  5. David Reich and Nick Patterson on Indo-Europeans
    By Aberdeen in forum Gene Expression & Data Analysis
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 18-02-15, 00:58

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •