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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

  1. #351
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    There has been migration from the Steppe to the Southern Arc as early as 4206-3925 BC (Areni_C samples from Armenia, not far from the border with Iran 39°43′53″N 45°12′13″E).

    Target: ARM_Areni_C
    Distance: 0.0148% / 0.01476239 | R4P
    29.1 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    29.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    25.1 RUS_Progress_En:PG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%
    16.8 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN:I2743___BC_5100___Coverage_2 1.55%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C
    Distance: 0.0206% / 0.02062109 | R4P
    53.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    20.3 HRV_Sopot_MN:I3498___BC_5731___Coverage_42.90%
    14.5 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    11.4 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C
    Distance: 0.0193% / 0.01926070 | R5P
    31.7 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    30.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    14.5 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    13.9 HUN_Starcevo_N:I0174___BC_5608___Coverage_19.59%
    9.3 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    can you run rise423 bronze age armenian from Nerqin Getashen site did he carry also some steppe ?
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

  2. #352
    Regular Member Er Monnezza's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yamnaya can be modeled entirely with Steppe + EEF.

    Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Distance: 0.0290% / 0.02899665 | R3P
    70.5 RUS_Progress_En:PG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%
    17.3 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
    12.2 UKR_Trypillia:I2110___BC_3747___Coverage_14.11%

    The only thing is that going back far enough you do find Iran_N in these populations (don't know if the same applies to qpAdm though). Perhaps this component was already long established in the North Caucasus, there may have been migrations millennia earlier that increased Iran_N in the region, but these are not to be associated with Proto-Indo-European.

    Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Distance: 0.0594% / 0.05936254
    34.3 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    27.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371___Coverage_84 .07%
    25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    5.9 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    3.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%
    3.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%

    Target: RUS_Progress_En
    Distance: 0.0495% / 0.04953731
    38.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    20.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    19.2 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    13.4 RUS_Veretye_Meso:PES001___BC_10761___Coverage_97.5 0%
    8.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    I couldn't tell when Iran_N arrived, but it is present in samples dated almost around 5000 BC.

    Sample IRAN_N %
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32% 4,1
    RUS_Progress_En:PG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05% 11,3
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I1722___BC_4458___Coverage_14.76% 5
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2055___BC_4558___Coverage_15.17% 3,3
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516___Coverage_59.59% 5,1
    RUS_Vonyuchka_En:VJ1001___BC_4280___Coverage_70.20 % 16,6
    RUS_Progress_En:PG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94% 6,7

  3. #353
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Yamnaya can be modeled entirely with Steppe + EEF.

    Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Distance: 0.0290% / 0.02899665 | R3P
    70.5 RUS_Progress_En:PG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%
    17.3 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
    12.2 UKR_Trypillia:I2110___BC_3747___Coverage_14.11%

    The only thing is that going back far enough you do find Iran_N in these populations (don't know if the same applies to qpAdm though). Perhaps this component was already long established in the North Caucasus, there may have been migrations millennia earlier that increased Iran_N in the region, but these are not to be associated with Proto-Indo-European.

    Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Distance: 0.0594% / 0.05936254
    34.3 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    27.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371___Coverage_84 .07%
    25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    5.9 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    3.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%
    3.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%

    Target: RUS_Progress_En
    Distance: 0.0495% / 0.04953731
    38.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    20.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    19.2 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    13.4 RUS_Veretye_Meso:PES001___BC_10761___Coverage_97.5 0%
    8.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    I couldn't tell when Iran_N arrived, but it is present in samples dated almost around 5000 BC.

    Sample IRAN_N %
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32% 4,1
    RUS_Progress_En:PG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05% 11,3
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I1722___BC_4458___Coverage_14.76% 5
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2055___BC_4558___Coverage_15.17% 3,3
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516___Coverage_59.59% 5,1
    RUS_Vonyuchka_En:VJ1001___BC_4280___Coverage_70.20 % 16,6
    RUS_Progress_En:PG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94% 6,7
    Says you. Let's wait to see what Reich, using REAL statistical methods, has to say about it.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #354
    Regular Member Er Monnezza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    can you run rise423 bronze age armenian from Nerqin Getashen site did he carry also some steppe ?
    Some kind of ancestry from the north is present in almost all samples from Armenia available so far, I do not expect to find it in those much older than 4000 BC though.

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1634___BC_4206___Coverage_64.04%
    Distance: 0.0290% / 0.02904250 | R4P
    48.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    23.2 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN175___BC_5142___Coverage_27.91%
    14.4 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    13.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1631___BC_4149___Coverage_70.90%
    Distance: 0.0320% / 0.03203106 | R4P
    53.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    20.0 HUN_Koros_N_contam:I2373___BC_5750___Coverage_26.3 8%
    14.9 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    11.9 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1632___BC_4126___Coverage_69.22%
    Distance: 0.0215% / 0.02147978 | R4P
    60.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    17.2 HUN_Vinca_MN:I1887___BC_5200___Coverage_32.48%
    12.0 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    10.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1407___BC_3925___Coverage_67.46%
    Distance: 0.0260% / 0.02602324 | R4P
    39.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    35.3 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241___BC_5954___Coverage_73.53 %
    14.5 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    10.8 DEU_LBK_HBS:I0048___BC_5107___Coverage_41.84%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM001___BC_3467___Coverage_52.03%
    Distance: 0.0294% / 0.02943720 | R4P
    41.7 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    35.9 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    12.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    10.2 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN175___BC_5142___Coverage_27.91%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM002-003___BC_3213___Coverage_59.55%
    Distance: 0.0242% / 0.02423161 | R4P
    54.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349___BC_5797___Coverage_77.91 %
    28.7 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    14.8 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583___BC_6323___Coverage_99.28%
    1.9 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658___BC_3212___Coverage_70.76%
    Distance: 0.0276% / 0.02756372 | R4P
    41.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002___BC_5428___Covera ge_59.20%
    24.4 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    19.8 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN164___BC_5160___Coverage_31.25%
    14.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635___BC_2526___Coverage_69.6 1%
    Distance: 0.0287% / 0.02869724 | R4P
    37.3 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    34.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241___BC_5954___Coverage_73.53 %
    24.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    4.0 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633___BC_2515___Coverage_71.9 5%
    Distance: 0.0302% / 0.03022877 | R4P
    33.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    31.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    19.1 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN164___BC_5160___Coverage_31.25%
    15.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: ARM_MBA:I1656___BC_1447___Coverage_72.08%
    Distance: 0.0250% / 0.02504080 | R4P
    47.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349___BC_5797___Coverage_77.91 %
    24.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    14.7 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371___Coverage_84 .07%
    12.9 HRV_MN:I26738___BC_5175___Coverage_56.04%

    Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA : DA35___BC_1309___Coverage_67.26%
    Distance: 0.0248% / 0.02482043 | R4P
    53.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241___BC_5954___Coverage_73.53 %
    18.4 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    14.7 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    13.4 TUR_Barcin_N:I1096___BC_6350___Coverage_64.66%

    Target: ARM_MBA:RISE423___BC_1301___Coverage_32.89%
    Distance: 0.0367% / 0.03668315 | R4P
    57.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    17.3 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    17.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    7.9 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937___BC_5410___Coverage_64.88 %

    Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA : DA31___BC_1250___Coverage_20.91%
    Distance: 0.0251% / 0.02513586 | R4P
    44.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    24.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    16.7 HUN_Vinca_MN:I1895___BC_5245___Coverage_58.50%
    14.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG:I1960___BC_6166___Coverage_70.00%

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE412___BC_1068___Coverage_10.13%
    Distance: 0.0408% / 0.04081971 | R4P
    37.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    30.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    17.9 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    13.9 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE407___BC_985___Coverage_15.81%
    Distance: 0.0295% / 0.02945488 | R4P
    33.9 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101___BC_6350___Coverage_56.53%
    31.0 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    18.9 RUS_Karelia_HG:UzOO77___BC_5250___Coverage_46.32%
    16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE397___BC_958___Coverage_20.86%
    Distance: 0.0388% / 0.03884907 | R4P
    39.3 CZE_N_oWHG:I7951___BC_5250___Coverage_36.25%
    25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%
    21.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    13.1 RUS_Samara_HG:I0124___BC_5594___Coverage_40.95%

  5. #355
    Regular Member Ghani's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    you nail it
    i think dilawer is very good ( i know some people dont like his calculators in geneplazza
    but i do )
    he was also banned from anthrogenica
    if i am not wrong
    I heard that they were upset when he either proved they didn’t know how to use formal statistical methods or proved their amateur calculators were wrong. So they quickly erased all the proof and banned him. They have no tolerance for anyone that can show they are wrong

  6. #356
    Regular Member Ghani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    I heard that they were upset when he either proved they didn’t know how to use formal statistical methods or proved their amateur calculators were wrong. So they quickly erased all the proof and banned him. They have no tolerance for anyone that can show they are wrong
    I just found this page from Anthrogenica’s co-founder DMXX Vaedya blog. Apparently, they thought highly of Dilawer and used him to prove their point. But when he corrected or disagreed with them they show their true colors and ban him. How ironic and pathetic !
    http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/search?q=Sintashta

    Disclaimer
    This is largely a re-post, albeit with additional explanations, from a recent ADMIXTURE autosomal run (Eurasia K20) performed at Anthrogenica by the user Kurd. Full technical information and the original files may be found in his original thread. Full acknowledgement is provided to him for the great work. Unless stated otherwise, assume the contents refer to the Eurasia K20 run. This entry may be updated at any time to include further investigations based on future runs. Finally, this entry assumes the mainstream Pontic-Caspian theory for the genesis of the Indo-Europeans to be fully accurate.
    Preamble
    This entry/repost contains a "quick and dirty" method for a preliminary attempt at deriving their Sintashta admixture levels in West, Central and South Asians based on the Eurasia K20 scores. Given the different admixture histories elsewhere in Eurasia, this probably won't be very informative for users with ancestral backgrounds outside the lands between Kurdistan and the Indo-Gangetic plains. This is especially the case with modern Europeans, who share the same core components with Sintashta, while also deriving their own Indo-European ancestries from different archaeological cultures and time periods.
    Establishing the Context
    According to this Eurasia K20 run, Sintashta are approximately 62% Yamnaya, 22% EEF, 10% European and 3% SHG_WHG. Sintashta, at present, appear to be the best proxy for the Indo-Iranians that arrived in West and South Asia. The above four components define the majority (94%) of Sintashta's autosomal profile here.
    As discussed elsewhere in Anthrogenica (kudos to user Sein for pointing this out), Sintashta should be considered better surrogates for the Andronovo-related waves which reached West, Central and South Asia than the actual Andronovo samples derived from Allentoft et al. 2015. This is due to the Andronovo samples being derived from the extreme northeast of the archaeological horizon (above the Altai, near Afanasievo). Their position opens up the possibility for extraneous admixture from other steppe groups (including early speakers of Tocharian through Afanasievo?).
    The user Kurd has previously demonstrated that recent steppe-related admixture may be segregated from other components. While undertaking this exercise, it also looks like Kurd has done an excellent job addressing the "teal" component that defined up to half of Samara Yamnaya and a big chunk of Sintashta. Kurd's K20 is, in my view, the most effective attempt thus far at separating the complicated autosomal overlapping in West and Central Eurasia.

  7. #357
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Some kind of ancestry from the north is present in almost all samples from Armenia available so far, I do not expect to find it in those much older than 4000 BC though.

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1634___BC_4206___Coverage_64.04%
    Distance: 0.0290% / 0.02904250 | R4P
    48.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    23.2 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN175___BC_5142___Coverage_27.91%
    14.4 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    13.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1631___BC_4149___Coverage_70.90%
    Distance: 0.0320% / 0.03203106 | R4P
    53.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    20.0 HUN_Koros_N_contam:I2373___BC_5750___Coverage_26.3 8%
    14.9 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    11.9 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1632___BC_4126___Coverage_69.22%
    Distance: 0.0215% / 0.02147978 | R4P
    60.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    17.2 HUN_Vinca_MN:I1887___BC_5200___Coverage_32.48%
    12.0 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    10.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1407___BC_3925___Coverage_67.46%
    Distance: 0.0260% / 0.02602324 | R4P
    39.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    35.3 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241___BC_5954___Coverage_73.53 %
    14.5 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    10.8 DEU_LBK_HBS:I0048___BC_5107___Coverage_41.84%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM001___BC_3467___Coverage_52.03%
    Distance: 0.0294% / 0.02943720 | R4P
    41.7 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    35.9 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    12.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    10.2 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN175___BC_5142___Coverage_27.91%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps:ARM002-003___BC_3213___Coverage_59.55%
    Distance: 0.0242% / 0.02423161 | R4P
    54.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349___BC_5797___Coverage_77.91 %
    28.7 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    14.8 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583___BC_6323___Coverage_99.28%
    1.9 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658___BC_3212___Coverage_70.76%
    Distance: 0.0276% / 0.02756372 | R4P
    41.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002___BC_5428___Covera ge_59.20%
    24.4 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    19.8 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN164___BC_5160___Coverage_31.25%
    14.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635___BC_2526___Coverage_69.6 1%
    Distance: 0.0287% / 0.02869724 | R4P
    37.3 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    34.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241___BC_5954___Coverage_73.53 %
    24.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    4.0 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%

    Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633___BC_2515___Coverage_71.9 5%
    Distance: 0.0302% / 0.03022877 | R4P
    33.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    31.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    19.1 DEU_LBK_SMH:XN164___BC_5160___Coverage_31.25%
    15.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: ARM_MBA:I1656___BC_1447___Coverage_72.08%
    Distance: 0.0250% / 0.02504080 | R4P
    47.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349___BC_5797___Coverage_77.91 %
    24.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    14.7 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371___Coverage_84 .07%
    12.9 HRV_MN:I26738___BC_5175___Coverage_56.04%

    Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA : DA35___BC_1309___Coverage_67.26%
    Distance: 0.0248% / 0.02482043 | R4P
    53.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241___BC_5954___Coverage_73.53 %
    18.4 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    14.7 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    13.4 TUR_Barcin_N:I1096___BC_6350___Coverage_64.66%

    Target: ARM_MBA:RISE423___BC_1301___Coverage_32.89%
    Distance: 0.0367% / 0.03668315 | R4P
    57.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    17.3 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    17.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    7.9 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937___BC_5410___Coverage_64.88 %

    Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA : DA31___BC_1250___Coverage_20.91%
    Distance: 0.0251% / 0.02513586 | R4P
    44.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    24.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    16.7 HUN_Vinca_MN:I1895___BC_5245___Coverage_58.50%
    14.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG:I1960___BC_6166___Coverage_70.00%

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE412___BC_1068___Coverage_10.13%
    Distance: 0.0408% / 0.04081971 | R4P
    37.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    30.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    17.9 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    13.9 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE407___BC_985___Coverage_15.81%
    Distance: 0.0295% / 0.02945488 | R4P
    33.9 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101___BC_6350___Coverage_56.53%
    31.0 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    18.9 RUS_Karelia_HG:UzOO77___BC_5250___Coverage_46.32%
    16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE397___BC_958___Coverage_20.86%
    Distance: 0.0388% / 0.03884907 | R4P
    39.3 CZE_N_oWHG:I7951___BC_5250___Coverage_36.25%
    25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%
    21.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    13.1 RUS_Samara_HG:I0124___BC_5594___Coverage_40.95%

    from future southern arc paper :

    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    There has been migration from the Steppe to the Southern Arc as early as 4206-3925 BC (Areni_C samples from Armenia, not far from the border with Iran 39°43′53″N 45°12′13″E).

    Target: ARM_Areni_C
    Distance: 0.0148% / 0.01476239 | R4P
    29.1 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    29.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    25.1 RUS_Progress_En:PG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%
    16.8 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN:I2743___BC_5100___Coverage_2 1.55%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C
    Distance: 0.0206% / 0.02062109 | R4P
    53.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351___BC_5970___Coverage_64.70 %
    20.3 HRV_Sopot_MN:I3498___BC_5731___Coverage_42.90%
    14.5 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    11.4 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%

    Target: ARM_Areni_C
    Distance: 0.0193% / 0.01926070 | R5P
    31.7 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323___BC_5960___Coverage_39.79 %
    30.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001___BC_5688___Covera ge_73.36%
    14.5 RUS_Karelia_HG:I0061___BC_6500___Coverage_87.22%
    13.9 HUN_Starcevo_N:I0174___BC_5608___Coverage_19.59%
    9.3 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    Was this done in qpAdm?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Was this done in qpAdm?
    No, Global25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    For me, my interest is in the progenitors of Western Civilization, the Ancient Greeks and Romans.


    We can see that steppe was indeed a minority component among them.


    I feel my sentiments on it are like that of Angela.


    I can be modeled about 25% steppe, and I even have an EBA Yamnaya paternal-lineage. I'm proud of all my ancestors, and I think it is neat to have them as part of background. But they are merely a component, and I think it would be weird for me to be obsessed with it in an racist sort of way. It would be awkward for a mostly Native American mestizo to be obsessed with being 25% Iberian in a racist way.
    I completely agree that the Greeks and Romans are the founders of Western civilization. The point is that both the Greeks and Romans inherited their languages ​​(for some people language defines culture) from Indo-European-speaking invaders. For Nordicists; this means that the PIE invaders are consequently the founders of Greek and Roman cultures as well.


    I find Nordicism pathetic because the invaders mixed with the local population. No culture developed without this mixture. The Indo-European speakers themselves were also constituted by the mixture of EHG and CHG. There is no 'pure population', there is the natural movement of mixing between human populations.


    There seems to be a silly intrigue between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. Northerners feel like the founders of it all as the Indo-European invaders dominated the farmers and modified their languages ​​and cultures, while Southern Europeans claim that the south was indeed civilized. As a Brazilian who looks at all this from the outside: it seems like a big waste of time. Indo-Europeans and farmers mingled everywhere in Europe, it no longer makes sense to think of any modern European civilization as essentially divided. Genetic and cultural mixing happened everywhere. That is all.


    Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    I completely agree that the Greeks and Romans are the founders of Western civilization. The point is that both the Greeks and Romans inherited their languages ​​(for some people language defines culture) from Indo-European-speaking invaders. For Nordicists; this means that the PIE invaders are consequently the founders of Greek and Roman cultures as well.


    I find Nordicism pathetic because the invaders mixed with the local population. No culture developed without this mixture. The Indo-European speakers themselves were also constituted by the mixture of EHG and CHG. There is no 'pure population', there is the natural movement of mixing between human populations.


    There seems to be a silly intrigue between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. Northerners feel like the founders of it all as the Indo-European invaders dominated the farmers and modified their languages ​​and cultures, while Southern Europeans claim that the south was indeed civilized. As a Brazilian who looks at all this from the outside: it seems like a big waste of time. Indo-Europeans and farmers mingled everywhere in Europe, it no longer makes sense to think of any modern European civilization as essentially divided. Genetic and cultural mixing happened everywhere. That is all.


    Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.
    this is a debate that was understandable in 2018/2019 when southern european genetics was seen as only EEF based. Reality is another. We now know that ANE/ANS is made of a mix between central mediterranean dna( proto aurignacian) proto gravettian ( from south of the caucasus and expanding into the eastern european plain mixing with the aurignacian) and east asian.
    We now know that WHG is a southern european genetic marker and CHG is not northern european either.
    The idea that " northern european are more IE than southern european " is bullshit given the fact that Sredni Stog was a mix between ukraine neolithic cluster and CHG like cluster with PIE coming from the former which was around 70% WHG and 30% ANE. There is no west eurasian genetic marker that is northern european in origin. WHG, and EEF are all southern and ANE as I said is southern european, levant + east asian


    675e546a7b55c5732a505932.jpg

    fatyanovo.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    I just found this page from Anthrogenica’s co-founder DMXX Vaedya blog. Apparently, they thought highly of Dilawer and used him to prove their point. But when he corrected or disagreed with them they show their true colors and ban him. How ironic and pathetic !
    http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/search?q=Sintashta
    What the heck is "European". There is no such ancestral component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    I completely agree that the Greeks and Romans are the founders of Western civilization. The point is that both the Greeks and Romans inherited their languages ​​(for some people language defines culture) from Indo-European-speaking invaders. For Nordicists; this means that the PIE invaders are consequently the founders of Greek and Roman cultures as well.


    I find Nordicism pathetic because the invaders mixed with the local population. No culture developed without this mixture. The Indo-European speakers themselves were also constituted by the mixture of EHG and CHG. There is no 'pure population', there is the natural movement of mixing between human populations.


    There seems to be a silly intrigue between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. Northerners feel like the founders of it all as the Indo-European invaders dominated the farmers and modified their languages ​​and cultures, while Southern Europeans claim that the south was indeed civilized. As a Brazilian who looks at all this from the outside: it seems like a big waste of time. Indo-Europeans and farmers mingled everywhere in Europe, it no longer makes sense to think of any modern European civilization as essentially divided. Genetic and cultural mixing happened everywhere. That is all.


    Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.
    Well how do these Nordicists feel about the original Indo-European-speakers being more like modern Iranians than modern Scandos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Well how do these Nordicists feel about the original Indo-European-speakers being more like modern Iranians than modern Scandos?
    I have no idea what the Yamnaya people looked like. I've seen some reconstructions, but nothing seems definitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    I have no idea what the Yamnaya people looked like. I've seen some reconstructions, but nothing seems definitive.
    Probably like modern day Balkanites (who knows) but seriously doubt they were blond/blue eyed. My thing is why the fixation with IndoEuros? What if they never arrived from the steppe and Europe was made up of Anatolian Farmers with slight WHG admixture would things have been radically different? We certainly wouldn't be having these ridiculous conversations about the superiority of IE over Farmers. I'm super proud of my high ANF ancestry because it's about adaptation not forcible conquest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Probably like modern day Balkanites (who knows) but seriously doubt they were blond/blue eyed. My thing is why the fixation with IndoEuros? What if they never arrived from the steppe and Europe was made up of Anatolian Farmers with slight WHG admixture would things have been radically different? We certainly wouldn't be having these ridiculous conversations about the superiority of IE over Farmers. I'm super proud of my high ANF ancestry because it's about adaptation not forcible conquest.
    I think the fixation exists because some ethnic groups (richer in steppe ancestry) want to feel like the dominating masters of Europe. If all the great European civilizations stopped speaking native languages ​​and started to speak Indo-European languages; for them this means that the Indo-Europeans are the 'masters' behind all the great European civilizations. It was a very common thesis among the Nazis. For them the pre-Indo-European farmers are the 'plebs' and the elites the 'masters' who carried new languages ​​and new cultures. It seems to be a kind of colonial mentality within Europe. Here in Brazil the native and African populations were seen as the slaves/dominated, while the Portuguese were the dominators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What the heck is "European". There is no such ancestral component.
    No idea. Is that a calculator component or is DMX grouping a few components under that label? But yeah in the early days before the large number of ancients were published people were creating calculators with mixed ancient-modern components which is not a good idea. Hopefully they’re not doing it now since we gave so many ancient samples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post


    Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.
    well, you could also say that the brazilians of portuguese and italian descent feel 'whiter' than those of non-european or partially non-european descent and it would be exactly the same.
    it's not really nordic racism. it's just that brazilian society values lighter features more and thus people who own those ligther features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    well, you could also say that the brazilians of portuguese and italian descent feel 'whiter' than those of non-european or partially non-european descent and it would be exactly the same.
    it's not really nordic racism. it's just that brazilian society values lighter features more and thus people who own those ligther features.

    The Italians went to Brazil went in great numbers ( over half a million ) living together with the Germans and Portuguese in Southern Brazil...............they realised after a decade or so, that it was not as good as Europe.......with many moving to USA/Canada or even back to Italy ( especially after 1970 )

    There is no Nordic racism ...........people who mention this have ZERO ideas and like to "stir the pot with BS"

    my relatives did not go to Brazil/Argentina or Uruguay.........2 families went to south west France from 1910 ....................and my relatives on my grandmother side came to Australia after WW1
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Are we ever going to get this freaking paper? Kept waiting until July 13 for that talk, and still nothing. Jfc, it's been talked about for years. What are these people hiding?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What the heck is "European". There is no such ancestral component.
    A-B-AB-O rh negative blood types are pretty unique to European people like Basque and Steppe. Modern day blood transfusions and women who are rh negative and married rh negative did not have to worry about losing their offspring.
    Suum cuique---Rubiconem suum


  22. #372
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    All European immigrants in Brazil had an extraordinary demographic explosion and they had big families in Brazil while in Europe they were starving or being killed in mass in the First and Second World Wars, most have average lifes, few are very poor and some are very rich, if you are rich in Brazil you are far richer than in Europe, of course all foreign immigrants were Brazilianized in the language and culture, specially during the "Campanha de Nacionalização" in the Second World War. European immigrants are a very important part of Brazil just like the descendants of the Brazilian Portuguese Colonial ruling class, the Amerindian and African big demographic stocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The Italians went to Brazil went in great numbers ( over half a million ) living together with the Germans and Portuguese in Southern Brazil...............they realised after a decade or so, that it was not as good as Europe.......with many moving to USA/Canada or even back to Italy ( especially after 1970 )
    There is no Nordic racism ...........people who mention this have ZERO ideas and like to "stir the pot with BS"
    my relatives did not go to Brazil/Argentina or Uruguay.........2 families went to south west France from 1910 ....................and my relatives on my grandmother side came to Australia after WW1

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post

    Your assertion about Davidski sounds trustworthy. With that being said, I personally haven‘t come across these specific topics, old posts, and outrageous claims of him, at all. My impression of Davidski is that at times he comes off as rude but he's very knowledgeable in genetics for better or worse. For instance, concerning his conclusions about the Bell Beakers and their relation to the Corded Ware people, he was right. Nonetheless, Davidski must have been high to predict and confidently suggest that the Mycenaeans would turn out to be blonde, blue-eyed very CWC-like people. He failed terribly in that regard. And that's why he may have begun to tone down the rhetoric. The thing is that researchers do take him seriously and obviously read his blog too. In one genetic study, the scholars referred to Davidski, for instance. Thus I think he‘s kinda forced to display discipline and basically summarize what the studies say and comment on them without being carried away by his personal agenda. His blog obviously changed into becoming more moderate and tame. At least compared to what you‘ve witnessed. In my opinion, we should read any conclusions, suggestions, or interpretations of DNA findings regardless of the political affiliation of the involved researchers, with caution.






    Some Greeks were blonde and red haired, but they were a minority. I recall a Youtube from a few years back where it demonstrated that an unreleased genome of a R-L23 "Classical" age Greek was blonde and lactose intolerant. Presumably blue eyes also popped up once in a while due to some WHG roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    There is no Nordic racism ...........people who mention this have ZERO ideas and like to "stir the pot with BS"
    if you mean that there is no racism of more northern european people against more southern european people then no, it certainly exists. if you mean that there is no "nordic racism" because it doesn't really differ from other sorts of racism in a way that would justify calling it "nordic" then i agree with you. or when spanish people are racist against north africans, is that also nordic racism?
    this focus on "nordic" diverts from the real problem.
    of course if it's about the theories of nordic people bringing civilization to southern europe and more northern people claiming the achievements of those people, in other words cultural theft then it's a different thing. but those two things are not automatically the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    I have no idea what the Yamnaya people looked like. I've seen some reconstructions, but nothing seems definitive.
    We do have their pigmentation snps, and they were darker than modern Europeans, so there is that.

    There was even a very early Corded Ware person found in Poland who an article said surprised the Polish scientists, because he was much "darker" than modern Poles. I haven't heard anything since, but it all makes sense.

    That latest large paper on pigmentation maintains that the steppe people picked up more derived alleles for "paleness" from the farmers with whom they admixed.

    Over the millennia evolution has selected for those alleles where they are helpful.

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