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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    No idea. Is that a calculator component or is DMX grouping a few components under that label? But yeah in the early days before the large number of ancients were published people were creating calculators with mixed ancient-modern components which is not a good idea. Hopefully they’re not doing it now since we gave so many ancient samples
    Yes, I know, so I was wondering why a calculator like that was being praised.


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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    this is a debate that was understandable in 2018/2019 when southern european genetics was seen as only EEF based. Reality is another. We now know that ANE/ANS is made of a mix between central mediterranean dna( proto aurignacian) proto gravettian ( from south of the caucasus and expanding into the eastern european plain mixing with the aurignacian) and east asian.
    We now know that WHG is a southern european genetic marker and CHG is not northern european either.
    The idea that " northern european are more IE than southern european " is bullshit given the fact that Sredni Stog was a mix between ukraine neolithic cluster and CHG like cluster with PIE coming from the former which was around 70% WHG and 30% ANE. There is no west eurasian genetic marker that is northern european in origin. WHG, and EEF are all southern and ANE as I said is southern european, levant + east asian


    Attachment 13432

    Attachment 13433
    I also don't know what purpose it serves to go back to the Gravettians. Ultimately, Europe is a sink, not a source of migration, and if we go back far enough, our remote ancestors came from Africa, which is about as "south" as you can get. :)

    It's a fact, however, that when the farmers arrived from Anatolia, the WHG were already there, and the WHG became concentrated in the north and especially in the northeast either because they fled there, they could live on the fish on the sea, or, most importantly, because the Neolithic package of that times wasn't adapted to that climate and land.

    EHG, also present in Europe before the farmers, is also more prevalent in the north.

    Unfortunately for the Nordicists, it was the farmers who brought light pigmentation, which they prize so highly, to Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    A-B-AB-O rh negative blood types are pretty unique to European people like Basque and Steppe. Modern day blood transfusions and women who are rh negative and married rh negative did not have to worry about losing their offspring.
    Anyone know if the R1b1a1a found in Samara Russia Hunter Gatherer 6000BC +/- had blonde hair and or blue eyes? Is Samara Russia pottery predate the southern sphere arc Arc pottery?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I also don't know what purpose it serves to go back to the Gravettians. Ultimately, Europe is a sink, not a source of migration, and if we go back far enough, our remote ancestors came from Africa, which is about as "south" as you can get. :)

    It's a fact, however, that when the farmers arrived from Anatolia, the WHG were already there, and the WHG became concentrated in the north and especially in the northeast either because they fled there, they could live on the fish on the sea, or, most importantly, because the Neolithic package of that times wasn't adapted to that climate and land.

    EHG, also present in Europe before the farmers, is also more prevalent in the north.

    Unfortunately for the Nordicists, it was the farmers who brought light pigmentation, which they prize so highly, to Europe.
    I know that’s the irony. I read this several years back and wondered why it wasn’t mentioned more at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I know that’s the irony. I read this several years back and wondered why it wasn’t mentioned more at the time.
    The irony is that I was accused of Nordicism here on Eupedia for stating that there were ancient Greeks and Romans that were naturally blond with blue eyes, albeit a minority. I was just going by primary sources and classical texts. People who suggested that EEF were not uniformly dark-haired and dark-eyed swarthy people were also shut down with the accusation of being Nordicists. Here's the thing not only the farmers but genetic drift and ANE ancestry in the Steppe population were also responsible for the lightening of skin and hair in Europeans.

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    Weren't the ANE folks in China light skinned though? The Tarim mummies lack EEF but are some of the most well preserved mummies out there. They have light skin don't they? Seems like skin tone is a little more complicated, but not an expert by any stretch.

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    These features change with the wind. Ashkenazi Jews plot south of southern Europeans and are a European-Middle Eastern mixture, and they're very pale. Probably because their allowed occupations in Europe did not put evolutionary pressure for them to be outdoors. A lot of them have light eyes, but they're also overwhelmingly dark haired.

    Hair color imo is a whole other thing related more to genetic drifts/founder effects. It's dominant in Germanic speaking or formerly Germanic-occupied territories (including current Slavic places). Outside of these areas it doesn't reach more than 10-15% frequency in adults.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    These features change with the wind. Ashkenazi Jews plot south of southern Europeans and are a European-Middle Eastern mixture, and they're very pale. Probably because their allowed occupations in Europe did not put evolutionary pressure for them to be outdoors. A lot of them have light eyes, but they're also overwhelmingly dark haired.

    Hair color imo is a whole other thing related more to genetic drifts/founder effects. It's dominant in Germanic speaking or formerly Germanic-occupied territories (including current Slavic places). Outside of these areas it doesn't reach more than 10-15% frequency in adults.
    Well, there is a subset of Ashkenazi, such as the Hasidic Jews, that have a fair amount of pale and blue-eyed folks. However, the average (fully) Ashkenazi looks clearly Mediterranean and pretty much swarthy. German Jews score a bit higher "Middle Eastern" component than Eastern European Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Siberia is located in North and not Central Asia, as many say. Just saying.
    You ar right, but I think you mention Mal'ta an Y-R1, I spoke about Y-R1b route to South the Caucasus, not even of Y-R1b first place of apparition, even if it could be between southern Siberia an Central Asia.

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    [QUOTE=real expert;652523]The irony is that I was accused of Nordicism here on Eupedia for stating that there were ancient Greeks and Romans that were naturally blond with blue eyes, albeit a minority. I was just going by primary sources and classical texts. People who suggested that EEF were not uniformly dark-haired and dark-eyed swarthy people were also shut down with the accusation of being Nordicists. Here's the thing not only the farmers but genetic drift and ANE ancestry in the Steppe population were also responsible for the lightening of skin and hair in Europeans. [/QUOTE

    Well, we have the alleles for the people of the Pontic Caspian steppe, and they were darker than any modern Europeans, so I don't see where you have evidence for that.

    Has no one read the latest papers on pigmentation?

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    If Reich is about to place the PIE formation zone around armenia or northwest Iran and knowing from Lazaridis that a very plausible route of Mycenaeans to Greece was through Anatolia, wouldn’t that potentially explain their low “steppe” admixture? Perhaps early Greeks were a pulse from the core area or somewhere near it, after it got some EHG input from the “feedback loop” with the area above Black Sea? Lazaridis did identify armenia as a potential proximal source after all. Or am I missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    These features change with the wind. Ashkenazi Jews plot south of southern Europeans and are a European-Middle Eastern mixture, and they're very pale. Probably because their allowed occupations in Europe did not put evolutionary pressure for them to be outdoors. A lot of them have light eyes, but they're also overwhelmingly dark haired.

    Hair color imo is a whole other thing related more to genetic drifts/founder effects. It's dominant in Germanic speaking or formerly Germanic-occupied territories (including current Slavic places). Outside of these areas it doesn't reach more than 10-15% frequency in adults.
    Europeans really have no point of reference in terms of the appearance of the Ashkenazim. You really should stop drawing conclusions from Jews in American media, many of whom are admixed.

    I've worked amongst them for decades now, and draw most of my closest friends from them, and not one of those friends has either fair hair or blue eyes, and nor does anyone in their families. Nor does anyone in the family of my husband's partner, an Orthodox Jew whose wife's family were Hasidim in Europe, have fair hair or blue eyes out of the seeming hundreds who attended his daughter's wedding.

    Are there some 100% Ashkenazim who have fair hair and eyes? Yes, there are. There are some Campanians who have fair hair and eyes too, but they're the minority in both cases.

    What you have to understand is that the Hasidic men, who are the easiest to identify, spend every waking hour indoors studying the Talmud, so they look very pale. Most Southern Italians who never went outside would also have that pale olive skin. However, most of them are religious not about God, but about getting the best tan possible.





    You do occasionally get a red head, which makes sense, since recessive genes are bound to come out in such inbred populations.



    Be aware the women have to wear wigs:


    You guys have been listening to people from theapricity for too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Europeans really have no point of reference in terms of the appearance of the Ashkenazim. You really should stop drawing conclusions from Jews in American media, many of whom are admixed.

    I've worked amongst them for decades now, and draw most of my closest friends from them, and not one of those friends has either fair hair or blue eyes, and nor does anyone in their families. Nor does anyone in the family of my husband's partner, an Orthodox Jew whose wife's family were Hasidim in Europe, have fair hair or blue eyes out of the seeming hundreds who attended his daughter's wedding.

    Are there some 100% Ashkenazim who have fair hair and eyes? Yes, there are. There are some Campanians who have fair hair and eyes too, but they're the minority in both cases.

    What you have to understand is that the Hasidic men, who are the easiest to identify, spend every waking hour indoors studying the Talmud, so they look very pale. Most Southern Italians who never went outside would also have that pale olive skin. However, most of them are religious not about God, but about getting the best tan possible.





    You do occasionally get a red head, which makes sense, since recessive genes are bound to come out in such inbred populations.



    Be aware the women have to wear wigs:


    You guys have been listening to people from theapricity for too long.
    What American media? I've known plenty of Jews in my life. Most are pretty pale with dark hair.

    I never said anything about them having light hair. Read what I said. I said light hair in adults is mostly associated with Germanic people, or places historically inhabited by Germanic people (Poland, Kievan Rus).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Weren't the ANE folks in China light skinned though? The Tarim mummies lack EEF but are some of the most well preserved mummies out there. They have light skin don't they? Seems like skin tone is a little more complicated, but not an expert by any stretch.
    Yes I agree with you ANE must have been a major source for lighter features.

    The complication is that whole Europe is a mix and features can also have multiple sources.

    That said ANE undeniable a major source for lighter features. Basically because of two reasons.

    1. "The earliest known individual with a genetic mutation associated with blonde hair in modern Europeans is an Ancient North Eurasian female dated to around 16000 BCE from the Afontova Gora 3 site in Siberia." (wiki).

    2. Latest research has shown that green eyes are connected with ANE/ Siberia. This has imo a broader significance. Because green eyes go together with a high amount of pheomelanin (red-yellow colour) and low eumelanin (dark brown colour). This very often goes together with red hair and light skin (Fitzgerald I, NO tan abilities), the stereotype Scot or Irishman. And see also the Tarim Mummies!

    This phenotype red hair green eyes can never have a Anatolian Farmer/ Med Farmer/EEF background. Because red haired/green eyes/very light skinned types are very vulnerable for high UV rates. Maciamo already figured out that therefore that red haired types below 45 latitude North are very seldom.

    To a lesser extent this is also the case for blond hair, blond haired light skinned types have still a considerable high amount of pheomelanin and compared to red heads a somewhat enhanced eumelanin. Still blond/light skinned (Fitzgerald II) have very bad tan abilities. I have been to Greece and to Anatolia/ Turkey and even a lay man can see that someone with skin type II (so with very bad or no tan abilities) is in no time a boiled lobster....doing a harvest in the Greece/Turkey sun is a torture for someone with skin type I and also II.
    Last edited by Northener; 26-07-22 at 16:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    If Reich is about to place the PIE formation zone around armenia or northwest Iran and knowing from Lazaridis that a very plausible route of Mycenaeans to Greece was through Anatolia, wouldn’t that potentially explain their low “steppe” admixture? Perhaps early Greeks were a pulse from the core area or somewhere near it, after it got some EHG input from the “feedback loop” with the area above Black Sea? Lazaridis did identify armenia as a potential proximal source after all. Or am I missing something?
    He didn't exclude that route in his paper about the Mycenaeans, but the answer may be in all these new samples the Reich Lab has been analyzing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Are we ever going to get this freaking paper ? Kept waiting until July 13 for that talk, and still nothing. Jfc, it's been talked about for years. What are these people hiding?

    Agree
    For people who are in this hobby
    It is like a torture
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Yes I agree with you ANE must have been a major source for lighter features.

    The complication is that whole Europe is a mix and features can also have multiple sources.

    That said ANE undeniable a major source for lighter features. Basically because of two reasons.

    1. "The earliest known individual with a genetic mutation associated with blonde hair in modern Europeans is an Ancient North Eurasian female dated to around 16000 BCE from the Afontova Gora 3 site in Siberia." (wiki).

    2. Latest research has shown that green eyes are connected with ANE/ Siberia. This has imo a broader significance. Because green eyes go together with a high amount of pheomelanin (red-yellow colour) and low eumelanin (dark brown colour). This very often goes together with red hair and light skin (Fitzgerald I, NO tan abilities), the stereotype Scot or Irishman. And see also the Tarim Mummies!

    This phenotype red hair green eyes can never have a Anatolian Farmer/ Med Farmer/EEF background. Because red haired/green eyes/very light skinned types are very vulnerable for high UV rates. Maciamo already figured out that therefore that red haired types below 45 latitude North are very seldom.

    To a lesser extent this is also the case for blond hair, blond haired light skinned types have still a considerable high amount of pheomelanin and compared to red heads a somewhat enhanced eumelanin. Still blond/light skinned (Fitzgerald II) have very bad tan abilities. I have been to Greece and to Anatolia/ Turkey and even a lay man can see that someone with skin type II (so with very bad or no tan abilities) is in no time a boiled lobster....doing a harvest in the Greece/Turkey sun is a torture for someone with skin type I and also II.

    Lighter pigmentation has a much more recent selection. I think there were some blonde/redheaded individuals between ANE and EHG, but I believe this trait was only relevantly selected for much later than that. I believe it was specially selected in northeastern Europe. There were also blond and light-eyed individuals among the EEF (in the Middle East as well) but they were in the minority and the Mediterranean did not press for this type of selection. It wouldn't be very helpful. You can't generalize ANE being blonde because of just one individual sequenced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Europeans really have no point of reference in terms of the appearance of the Ashkenazim. You really should stop drawing conclusions from Jews in American media, many of whom are admixed.

    I've worked amongst them for decades now, and draw most of my closest friends from them, and not one of those friends has either fair hair or blue eyes, and nor does anyone in their families. Nor does anyone in the family of my husband's partner, an Orthodox Jew whose wife's family were Hasidim in Europe, have fair hair or blue eyes out of the seeming hundreds who attended his daughter's wedding.

    Are there some 100% Ashkenazim who have fair hair and eyes? Yes, there are. There are some Campanians who have fair hair and eyes too, but they're the minority in both cases.

    What you have to understand is that the Hasidic men, who are the easiest to identify, spend every waking hour indoors studying the Talmud, so they look very pale. Most Southern Italians who never went outside would also have that pale olive skin. However, most of them are religious not about God, but about getting the best tan possible.





    You do occasionally get a red head, which makes sense, since recessive genes are bound to come out in such inbred populations.



    Be aware the women have to wear wigs:


    You guys have been listening to people from theapricity for too long.
    Well said. The overwhelming majority of Jews are dark-haired, with a blonde/redhead minority. There are even blond Palestinians, they are a minority, obviously, but they do exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    Lighter pigmentation has a much more recent selection. I think there were some blonde/redheaded individuals between ANE and EHG, but I believe this trait was only relevantly selected for much later than that. I believe it was specially selected in northeastern Europe. There were also blond and light-eyed individuals among the EEF (in the Middle East as well) but they were in the minority and the Mediterranean did not press for this type of selection. It wouldn't be very helpful. You can't generalize ANE being blonde because of just one individual sequenced.
    I don't generalize ANE as being uniform blond, I can be a source of blond hair and even red hair though. The latest research was clear green eyes are connected with ANE/ Siberia. And green eyes implicates high levels of pheomelanin that also gives red and blond hair their color.

    Nowadays Udmurts in Russia have worlds highest amounts of red hair and they have also the highest ANE amounts.

    Mark that the ANE amount is also high in the middle east for example also in the Turkish people.



    I guess that climate conditions in area's like Scotland for example favor the existence of the red haired green/ light eyed and very pale skinned types. In the Mediteraenen area is that really a problem so ANE sourced red/blondism could flourish in area's like Ireland, Scotland, like blondism around the North Sea and Scandinavia but below 45 latitude North, so in the mediterranean area this phenotype has big disadvantages high risk of being a boiled lobster and in the end this can make a difference. So climate can set limits. Even with a relative higher ANE input!

    And indeed this selection most probably started 4500 years or 100 generations ago. This was also after the spread of the Bell Beakers? And later on lighter features were more favored as can be seen in for example in Iceland's Rigspula....

    See Khan:

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    David Reich implies that this Anatolian component was transplanted during the Hellenistic and Imperial period not that there was an EBA or Neolithic Anatolian population moving around Italy.
    In Anthrogenica most people believed that freeborn Anatolians and Levantines who identified themselves as "Greeks" started flooding the Greek city states after 300BC for no reason even though those cities had already started losing all of their power by this time. (Some Anatolians could've been there though but before 450BC)
    Both of those theories are dismissed by Reich. I am pretty the Delos Roman port had a lot to do with this shift. Read about Roman Delos. Not sure if Reich will mention that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    David Reich implies that this Anatolian component was transplanted during the Hellenistic and Imperial period not that there was an EBA or Neolithic Anatolian population moving around Italy.
    In Anthrogenica most people believed that freeborn Anatolians and Levantines who identified themselves as "Greeks" started flooding the Greek city states after 300BC for no reason even though those cities had already started losing all of their power by this time. (Some Anatolians could've been there though but before 450BC)
    Both of those theories are dismissed by Reich. I am pretty the Delos Roman port had a lot to do with this shift. Read about Roman Delos. Not sure if Reich will mention that.
    That was my major beef with AG folks where’s the evidence of any Levantine or Anatolian migration during the classical or Hellinistic period. Based on my reading it was the other way around. Why in the hell would there be resettlement in one of the least inhabitable places (Greek mainland) in Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    That was my major beef with AG folks where’s the evidence of any Levantine or Anatolian migration during the classical or Hellinistic period. Based on my reading it was the other way around. Why in the hell would there be resettlement in one of the least inhabitable places (Greek mainland) in Europe?
    My belief was that those Imperial Roman samples are not migrants from the Southern Italy but this Roman cluster was something that was formed in Central Italy itself.

    And regarding migration of Anatolians and others, it happened independently of Greek poleis (with some exceptions). About Greece it depends from region to region, Attica could've been more Eastern influenced than Crete. Epirus was largely empty. Was Peloponnese less inhabitable than Crete? Why would so many Anatolians go to Crete and very few to Peloponnese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I don't generalize ANE as being uniform blond, I can be a source of blond hair and even red hair though. The latest research was clear green eyes are connected with ANE/ Siberia. And green eyes implicates high levels of pheomelanin that also gives red and blond hair their color.

    Nowadays Udmurts in Russia have worlds highest amounts of red hair and they have also the highest ANE amounts.

    Mark that the ANE amount is also high in the middle east for example also in the Turkish people.



    I guess that climate conditions in area's like Scotland for example favor the existence of the red haired green/ light eyed and very pale skinned types. In the Mediteraenen area is that really a problem so ANE sourced red/blondism could flourish in area's like Ireland, Scotland, like blondism around the North Sea and Scandinavia but below 45 latitude North, so in the mediterranean area this phenotype has big disadvantages high risk of being a boiled lobster and in the end this can make a difference. So climate can set limits. Even with a relative higher ANE input!

    And indeed this selection most probably started 4500 years or 100 generations ago. This was also after the spread of the Bell Beakers? And later on lighter features were more favored as can be seen in for example in Iceland's Rigspula....

    See Khan:
    I may have expressed myself badly. I didn't mean that you generalized ANE being blonde, I meant that the variant in that individual is probably not the same variant causing blonde hair in Europe today. There are several different variants and I think it's likely that they emerged in Europe without a necessary link with ANE. Many Siberian peoples have A LOT of ANE ancestry and do not have light eyes or light hair. Udmurt is one of the exceptions.

    I know this map and I think it expresses ANE ancestry very well (also common in Native Americans and various Siberian groups. ) The further west of Siberia the more likely you are to find light eyes and hair, for me this would imply a selection in the mix between EHG + ANE if you want to guess, but as I said before: there are different variants in different regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    We now know that WHG is a southern european genetic marker
    Can you explain how WHG is a southern European genetic marker?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Can you explain how WHG is a southern European genetic marker?
    I agree with you. It is a common western marker throughout western Europe. It is also very common in northeastern Europe, but heavily mixed with EHG. WHG gets weaker in southern Europe (mainly outside of Iberia.)

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