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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Random? LOL. The first video was shot in strong artificial light and with more aperture, the second in the dark and during the summer when people are more tanned.

    In those videos the Greeks look decidedly European, while the Circassians no going by their facial features.

    they look greek perhaps but there is no "european" look. otherwise there is no reason to exclude Circassians from that Category. especially if you consider that Adygea is literally situated in europe. another hidden "nordicist" who's trying to tell people if they're european or not?

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    Rhetorical question for males related to 14K+/- BP-Villabruna R1b(Latini L51+ and Z2103+). How could cultures advanced in farming - metallurgy and writing---not have a root word wheel in their ancestral language(since wheels make farming and long distance travel so much easier ? At the same time; not have any ancient proto-Dom2 burials by hunter gatherer ancient pottery(7K+/-), and genes for light eyes?
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    Early use of iron and Hittites. Are there any examples of iron metallurgy amongst EF Anatolian farmer cultures or EHG Catacomb Steppe culture?

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    Is there any evidence of high A+ blood types in Armenia and Anatolia being compatible with A RH- as per AE Mourant and or Iain Mathieson stats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    If Reich is about to place the PIE formation zone around armenia or northwest Iran and knowing from Lazaridis that a very plausible route of Mycenaeans to Greece was through Anatolia, wouldn’t that potentially explain their low “steppe” admixture? Perhaps early Greeks were a pulse from the core area or somewhere near it, after it got some EHG input from the “feedback loop” with the area above Black Sea? Lazaridis did identify armenia as a potential proximal source after all. Or am I missing something?
    The problem with this theory is that Mycenaeans did have some EHG, more than BA Anatolians (who had very little to none according to the abstract). Of course one can create more complex scenarios with proto-Greeks mixing with Balkan populations that did have higher EHG. That's just the genetics part, I have no clue how likely it is from a linguistic and archaeological perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    What's the deal with pseudo-scientific couch potato input like the one above? It amazes me that some people really don't know boundaries.
    If you'd like to see more of this individuals posts just look for their former profile on here "Cyrus".

    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    The fact is that different Indo-European peoples lived in Iran, for example as I said ancient Illuri people in Luristan were Illyrian, Gaeli people in Gilan were Celtic but Kurds in Kurdistan were Indo-Iranian.

    Not this nonsense again, despite all evidence to the contrary you still cling to this Celtic and others from Iran theory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    All of them have been mentioned in the world's most cited scientific journals, like Nature and Scientific Culture, for example about Celtic people look at this article by Prof. Xavier Rouard which was published this year: https://sci-cult.com/did-indo-europe...nary-approach/

    Are you not the same individual who published/created the image above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Don't shoot the messenger.

    People post about 'mainland Greeks' this, 'mainland Greeks' that.

    When you see the Greek_Macedonia sheet in the eurogenes data sheets, to whom do you think that categorization refers to? It's the people I linked in the video, whose native tongue is the Bulgarian/Slavic regional variation.

    And to make myself perfectly clear,

    1) I am not responsible, in the slightest, for the constant perpetuation of the 'mainland Greeks this', 'Island Greeks that', 'Anatolians whatever'. You can thank the AG Greek highbrow'ers for that. I was banned for protesting this.

    2) Throughout the internet, you can see 'mainland Greeks' arguing that they are the real deal, not like the rest of the Asiatic invaders (islands/Anatolia) who are the 'other'.

    Why is everyone acting so shocked?

    What did you expect you'd see in that video?
    Well, I didn't know that there were mainland Greeks who were Nordicists, so "I'm" shocked. I shouldn't be, since there are some Northern Italian Nordicists too (how many times have you heard the phrase north of the Po, versus south of the Po? Torzio loves it). My paternal grandfather was one of them(although he wouldn't have understood the term), despite being a bit south of the Po. I would have had a hard time marrying my husband had he been around.

    However, this is all off-topic.

    I won't penalize anyone because I let myself be drawn in too, but in a short while I'm going to remove all the off-topic posts.

    Please, back on topic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    The problem with this theory is that Mycenaeans did have some EHG, more than BA Anatolians (who had very little to none according to the abstract). Of course one can create more complex scenarios with proto-Greeks mixing with Balkan populations that did have higher EHG. That's just the genetics part, I have no clue how likely it is from a linguistic and archaeological perspective.
    I am not talking about just anatolians in general but specifically Phrygians, because if there is indeed a line of Hellenic speakers that came through Anatolia, Phrygians should be the missing link. But again, if.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Don't shoot the messenger.
    People post about 'mainland Greeks' this, 'mainland Greeks' that.
    When you see the Greek_Macedonia sheet in the eurogenes data sheets, to whom do you think that categorization refers to? It's the people I linked in the video, whose native tongue is the Bulgarian/Slavic regional variation.
    And to make myself perfectly clear,
    1) I am not responsible, in the slightest, for the constant perpetuation of the 'mainland Greeks this', 'Island Greeks that', 'Anatolians whatever'. You can thank the AG Greek highbrow'ers for that. I was banned for protesting this.
    2) Throughout the internet, you can see 'mainland Greeks' arguing that they are the real deal, not like the rest of the Asiatic invaders (islands/Anatolia) who are the 'other'.
    Why is everyone acting so shocked?
    What did you expect you'd see in that video?
    I am not sure I understand the message, if you are a messenger that is. At first you made some claim about Greeks being “darkest Europeans” and to make your point you posted a video of slavic speaking Greek citizens vs some Circassians. Video lighting details aside, you now double down by stating these people are represented in eurogenes data sheets as mainland Greeks. Let’s put that into perspective a bit.
    These people besides being slavic speakers, are from florina, exactly at the border with North Macedonia. Google it.
    While they are proud Greek citizens (which can freely celebrate their slavic heritage as you can see), including them in a genetic pool that intends to represent mainland Greeks (especially in terms of calculating slavic admixture) makes as much sense as using German speaking Italian citizens from South Tyrol as a reference point for Germanic admixture in northern Italians.
    As for the rest,mainland Greeks calling islanders and Anatolian refugees as asiatic invaders, it is pure drivel. I hope this word is allowed here, I can’t describe this in any other way. Greek identity is very uniform throughout Greece. The very President of the Republic ,Katerina Sakellaropoulou is descendent from anatolian refugees and the prime minister (Kyriakos Mitsotakis) is a Cretan. We have had presidents and prime ministers from all around the country (Peloponnesians,Epirotans, Macedonians, Islanders) and we intermarry amongst ourselves indiscriminately.
    Anatolian Greeks in particular that got exchanged in 1922 were already heavily mixed with islanders and mainlanders during the 19th century. You see after the Greek war of independence, the newly formed Greek state was poor and in ruins, couldn’t sustain big population and a considerable amount of the population just immigrated back to the ottoman Anatolian shore (Greek Anatolian population had thinned out in the centuries after the ottoman conquest).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    I am not sure I understand the message, if you are a messenger that is. At first you made some claim about Greeks being “darkest Europeans” and to make your point you posted a video of slavic speaking Greek citizens vs some Circassians. Video lighting details aside, you now double down by stating these people are represented in eurogenes data sheets as mainland Greeks. Let’s put that into perspective a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    These people besides being slavic speakers, are from florina, exactly at the border with North Macedonia. Google it.
    While they are proud Greek citizens (which can freely celebrate their slavic heritage as you can see), including them in a genetic pool that intends to represent mainland Greeks (especially in terms of calculating slavic admixture) makes as much sense as using German speaking Italian citizens from South Tyrol as a reference point for Germanic admixture in northern Italians.
    As for the rest,mainland Greeks calling islanders and Anatolian refugees as asiatic invaders, it is pure drivel. I hope this word is allowed here, I can’t describe this in any other way. Greek identity is very uniform throughout Greece. The very President of the Republic ,Katerina Sakellaropoulou is descendent from anatolian refugees and the prime minister (Kyriakos Mitsotakis) is a Cretan. We have had presidents and prime ministers from all around the country (Peloponnesians,Epirotans, Macedonians, Islanders) and we intermarry amongst ourselves indiscriminately.
    Anatolian Greeks in particular that got exchanged in 1922 were already heavily mixed with islanders and mainlanders during the 19th century. You see after the Greek war of independence, the newly formed Greek state was poor and in ruins, couldn’t sustain big population and a considerable amount of the population just immigrated back to the ottoman Anatolian shore (Greek Anatolian population had thinned out in the centuries after the ottoman conquest).
    Just to be clear I don’t believe he was saying all mainland Greeks feel superior to Greeks from other regions. On AG there were a lot of mainland Greeks interested in their own genetic history (me included) as were there Cypriots, Dodecanese, Cretans, Anatolians, Pontics, etc. Before I was tested I knew squat about my genetic background other than having 4 grandparents from the same region. I agree I don’t believe most folks care about who’s more Greek. Hell I recently discovered that I’m 1/4 Arvanite and maybe even more based on oral history so I’m not totally sure what the hell I am. My parents raised me as an American of Greek descent. I believe things get misconstrued on these sites. I can only speak from my own experience and current sentiments. When I look at these genetic results I’m trying to discern personal/family history and figure out where we came from (speaking specifically about my own family). That’s that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    If you'd like to see more of this individuals posts just look for their former profile on here "Cyrus".



    Not this nonsense again, despite all evidence to the contrary you still cling to this Celtic and others from Iran theory?



    Are you not the same individual who published/created the image above?

    Yes, I'm Xavier Rouard, professor of linguistics at the University of Rouen Normandy in France! Who are you? And what do you know about the origin of Celtic languages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Yes, I'm Xavier Rouard, professor of linguistics at the University of Rouen Normandy in France! Who are you? And what do you know about the origin of Celtic languages?
    The image/map you posted was created by a guy called Mojtaba Shamiri who used to frequently post his mental illness here. Mojtaba is also suspiciously similar to your 'Moja'.

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    Lol, Shahmiri you‘re so delusional. No one believes in your sick theories. Go find a doctor, it is time for you to go to therapy.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm sorry if someone has already posted this here. I think it's a useful summary of the topic, although of course one needs to evaluate the topic after publication by D.Reich




    Lecture by Prof. David Reich – “The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe”


    ” We present an integrative genetic history of the Southern Arc, an area divided geographically between West Asia and Europe, but which we define as spanning the culturally entangled regions of Anatolia and its neighbors, ‘in both Europe (Aegean and the Balkans), and in West Asia (Cyprus, Armenia, the Levant, Iraq and Iran). We employ a new analytical framework to analyze genome-wide data at the individual level from a total of 1,320 ancient individuals, 731 of which are newly reported and address major gaps in the archaeogenetic record. We report the first ancient DNA from the world’s earliest farming cultures of southeastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, as well as the first Neolithic period data from Cyprus and Armenia, and discover that it was admixture of Natufian-related ancestry from the Levant—mediated by Mesopotamian and Levantine farmers, and marked by at least two expansions associated with dispersal of pre-pottery and pottery cultures—that generated a pan-West Asian Neolithic continuum. Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.


    In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers. We provide insights into the Mycenaean period of the Aegean by documenting variation in the proportion of steppe ancestry (including some individuals who lack it altogether), and finding no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos.


    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal. The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself.“


    OUR TAKE & PREDICTION
    At Eurasian DNA we have been using short segment IBD analyses for the past 2 years for fine-scale work and it appears that Reich’s team is also starting to use it as well. We use short segment IBD analyses to distinguish more recent shared drift from more ancient shared genetic drift. For example, performing SNP by SNP comparison of two genomes such as used by many of the tools available to us will not necessarily tell us whether a West Eurasian individual shows a high genetic similarity to Yamnaya due to shared common ancestral components such as ENF, EHG, CHG, or whether this genetic similarity with Yamnaya is due to actual admixture from Yamnaya mediated via Steppe-MLBA and Steppe-IA populations.


    Unfortunately over 95% of the available ancient DNA is a less accurate pseudo-haploid representation of the real thing which is unsuitable of IBD work. A few of the other issues we encounter that come to mind when we process the usual ancient DNA sequences is that the reads map to either multiple locations of the reference genome due to the reads being very short or wrong locations due to errors in the reads.


    It’s difficult for us to do Identity by Descent (IBD) analyses using ancient human DNA because the overwhelming majority of the sequences out there don’t have enough read depth for us to produce the phased diploid genotypes we need perform IBD analyses.


    Although here at Eurasian DNA we have been able produce accurate phased diploid genotypes from raw ancient DNA sequences for use in short IBD analyses, we have been limited to just a few since over 95% of the available ancient DNA does not make our quality control cutoff of 8X average read depth to enable accurate phased diploid genotyping.


    It appears that Reich’s team have genotyped hundreds of new samples from Turkey. Iraq, Armenian, Iran, and surrounding areas and have been able to obtain a decent amount of higher quality ancient DNA from those regions to enable phased diploid genotyping and thus to determine negligible Steppe admixture into Anatolia from the Chalcolithic through the Iron Age. The implication here is if Indo-European languages did not come to Anatolia from the Steppe then the original staging ground for Proto-Indo-European languages and thus Yamnaya’s ancestors must have been near Anatolia ( likely Kurdistan and surrounds in NW Iran ). Additionally, Yamnaya’s predominant paternal ancestral haplogroup appears to be R-M269. This haplogroup is also found with high frequency in the eastern Turkey region. Thus if this region did not receive much steppe admixture, it’s likely this region had R-M269 prior to the formation of Yamnaya which would be consistent with this region being paternally ancestral to Yamnaya.


    From here Yamnaya’s ancestors migrated to the Eurasian Steppe where they hybridized with descendants of EHG and formed the Yamnaya and the secondary staging area for the dispersal of Indo-European languages.


    Subsequently some descendants of Yamnaya returned to Armenia and NW Iran, however that admixture would subsequently be diluted to 30% of its original value due to introgression of Anatolian admixture into Western Iran and Armenia.


    Interestingly, we predicted this type of scenario 5 years ago when we performed in depth analysis of Eurasian Steppe admixture in present day Kurds. We were also one of the first to discover the genetic impact of the Iron Age steppe nomads on the demography of Kurds and other Indo-Iranians.


    We are also hopeful that Reich’s team will make available higher coverage genomes from the Mede and perhaps Parthian periods. It seems that there will also be 3 new papers published covering the Neolithic to the Bronze Age


    Link: https://eurasiandna.com/lecture-by-p...t-asia-europe/

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    The reason why Anatolia outweighs other regions like the Balkans, Levant or Northern Africa in ancestry of Imperial Rome in my opinion is because:
    - Most migrations in Roman Empire were driven by slavery and the biggest slave market was settled in Delos. And it was significantly greater than any other market (the difference was not a small margin). And given the geography most slaves in Delos were of Anatolian origin. The second biggest market was Rhodes which also like Delos dealt with slaves largely of Anatolian ancestral heritage.
    - Anatolia had a higher population than Italy, Levant, Balkans, Iberia so that might've played a role. The eastern shift in Rome Republic to Imperial Rome was caused:
    1.) Slavery
    2.) Soldiers
    3.) Mobility migrations (such as Merchants, Artisans etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The reason why Anatolia outweighs other regions like the Balkans, Levant or Northern Africa in ancestry of Imperial Rome in my opinion is because:
    - Most migrations in Roman Empire were driven by slavery and the biggest slave market was settled in Delos. And it was significantly greater than any other market (the difference was not a small margin). And given the geography most slaves in Delos were of Anatolian origin. The second biggest market was Rhodes which also like Delos dealt with slaves largely of Anatolian ancestral heritage.
    - Anatolia had a higher population than Italy, Levant, Balkans, Iberia so that might've played a role. The eastern shift in Rome Republic to Imperial Rome was caused:
    1.) Slavery
    2.) Soldiers
    3.) Mobility migrations (such as Merchants, Artisans etc.)
    Unfortunately, I don't see a big overlap between Anatolia and Italy in Y dna nor in phenotypes.

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    1.) In Lazio and Abruzzo look at the ratio of J2a and R1b. R1b decreases while J2a increases in comparisons with Latins and Etruscans who were overwhelmingly R1b.
    Abruzzo (3) (2) (0) (1) 5 38 9 22 6 11 6 3 0 107
    3% 2% 0% 1% 4.5% 35.5% 8.5% 21% 5.5% 10.5% 5.5% 3% 0%
    Latium (33) (6) (6) (4) 8 112 43 72 7 63 18 0 7 386
    8.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1% 2% 29% 11% 18.5% 2% 16.5% 4.5% 0% 2%

    2.) Central Italians are significantly more southern shifted compared to Latins, Etruscans and the upcoming and Samnite samples.
    3.) Historical data and archaeological show the overcrowded cities of Italy being populated with people from East Mediterranean like in Rome and Pompeii.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There is little overlap between Italy from Tuscany northwards and Anatolia.

    The physical looks are also different in general including nasal length.

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    Double Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    From Strabo:

    The first place in Cilicia, then, to which one comes, is a stronghold, Coracesium, situated on an abrupt rock, which was used by Diodotus, called Tryphon, as a base of operations at the time when he caused Syria to revolt from the kings and was fighting it out with them, being successful at one time and failing at another.
    Now Tryphon was hemmed up in a certain place by Antiochus, son of Demetrius, and forced to kill himself; and it was Tryphon, together with the worthlessness of the kings who by succession were then reigning over Syria and at the same time over Cilicia, who caused the Cilicians to organise their gangs of pirates; for on account of his revolutionary attempts others made
    [COLOR=#FF3300 !important] p329 [/COLOR]
    like attempts at the same time, and thus the dissensions of brethren with one another put the country at the mercy of any who might attack it. The exportation of slaves induced them most of all to engage in their evil business, since it proved most profitable; for not only were they easily captured, but the market, which was large and rich in property, was not extremely far away, I mean Delos, which could both admit and send away ten thousand slaves on the same day; whence arose the proverb, "Merchant, sail in, unload your ship, everything has been sold." The cause of this was the fact that the Romans, having become rich after the destruction of Carthage and Corinth, used many slaves; and the pirates, seeing the easy profit therein, bloomed forth in great numbers, 669themselves not only going in quest of booty but also trafficking in slaves. The kings both of Cyprus and of Egypt co‑operated with them in this, being enemies to the Syrians.


    Some people, such as myself, have a hard time reading posts that looks messy with different font sizes and so many hyperlinks and different colored text. If you care about us reading your posts you might try and maintain the same font size, not use so many hyperlinks, not use extra colors, and not bold so many different portions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Anecdotally it certainly works in my family's case. Half my father's family is red haired and they carry U-152 and come from the southern half of that dark sliver of darkest red in northern Italy which runs north/south.
    SNPs are named as the major haplogroup letter such as R then a dash and then the letter indicating the lab then the number without any space or dash so R-U152 or U152 but not U-152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    red hair seems to correlate with R1b
    It's more likely a coincidence than a correlation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    There is little overlap between Italy from Tuscany northwards and Anatolia.

    The physical looks are also different in general including nasal length.
    Phenotype can be very misleading. All Italians are still predominantly Italic, Etruscan and Messapian.

    The East-Med related Y DNA in Central Italians is significant but around 20% to 30%, maximum, in Latium and Abruzzo.
    Tuscans on the other have at most 15% from West Asia and Northern Africa combined together.
    Even Lazio Italians seem to have roughly 10% E (non E-V13) while in Tuscany, E is almost 100% E-V13.

    And in general Central Italians have lower West Asian related Y-DNA than official or non-official autosomal results show.


    I am not sure what's with this disconnection between Y-DNA and autosomal results but also Germanic contribution could've had a male bias reducing those YDNA lines. But it's still not enough.

    Remember when Albanians only had 12% Slavic I2a and R1a YDNA and they showed +30% North Slavic autosomal input in us. Until we found out new samples which fixed the issue lately. Maybe the same will turn true for Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Some people, such as myself, have a hard time reading posts that looks messy with different font sizes and so many hyperlinks and different colored text. If you care about us reading your posts you might try and maintain the same font size, not use so many hyperlinks, not use extra colors, and not bold so many different portions.
    This is from an University site copy which came with the color directly. I press the "remove format" but it usually does not work.
    Thank you for the heads up, Miranda Priestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Phenotype can be very misleading. All Italians are still predominantly Italic, Etruscan and Messapian.

    The East-Med related Y DNA in Central Italians is significant but around 20% to 30%, maximum, in Latium and Abruzzo.
    Tuscans on the other have at most 15% from West Asia and Northern Africa combined together.
    Even Lazio Italians seem to have roughly 10% E (non E-V13) while in Tuscany, E is almost 100% E-V13.

    And in general Central Italians have lower West Asian related Y-DNA than official or non-official autosomal results show.


    I am not sure what's with this disconnection between Y-DNA and autosomal results but also Germanic contribution could've had a male bias reducing those YDNA lines. But it's still not enough.

    Remember when Albanians only had 12% Slavic I2a and R1a YDNA and they showed +30% North Slavic autosomal input in us. Until we found out new samples which fixed the issue lately. Maybe the same will turn true for Italy.

    We definitely need more Iron Age samples from all over Italy.

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