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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    The fact is that different Indo-European peoples lived in Iran, for example as I said ancient Illuri people in Luristan were Illyrian, Gaeli people in Gilan were Celtic but Kurds in Kurdistan were Indo-Iranian.


    OK? a map is a map. But on it it seems to me I see names of diverse depth and meaning in History. What period of History is covered by this astonishing map?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Lol, Shahmiri you‘re so delusional. No one believes in your sick theories. Go find a doctor, it is time for you to go to therapy.
    https://publons.com/wos-op/journal/8...tific-culture/

    SCIENTIFIC CULTURE (Journal of Applied Science & Technology to Cultural Heritage Issues) is a double-blind peer-reviewed, open access international scientific journal , an open information vehicle for an academic community with a global coverage and issues touching global interest. SC publishes original papers that address the application of the natural sciences to solve, document, interpret, and disseminate cultural heritage topics and policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    SNPs are named as the major haplogroup letter such as R then a dash and then the letter indicating the lab then the number without any space or dash so R-U152 or U152 but not U-152.
    Who the heck do you think you are to tell me how to refer to a haplogroup? I've been posting about genetics on various sites for over 12 years and I've been a moderator here for a long time.

    Anyone with half a brain knows exactly what I meant, and if I want to use a shorter notation I will.

    You don't make the rules here or determine what's acceptable and what isn't. If you don't like how we do things here, then leave.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    1.) In Lazio and Abruzzo look at the ratio of J2a and R1b. R1b decreases while J2a increases in comparisons with Latins and Etruscans who were overwhelmingly R1b.
    Abruzzo (3) (2) (0) (1) 5 38 9 22 6 11 6 3 0 107
    3% 2% 0% 1% 4.5% 35.5% 8.5% 21% 5.5% 10.5% 5.5% 3% 0%
    Latium (33) (6) (6) (4) 8 112 43 72 7 63 18 0 7 386
    8.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1% 2% 29% 11% 18.5% 2% 16.5% 4.5% 0% 2%

    2.) Central Italians are significantly more southern shifted compared to Latins, Etruscans and the upcoming and Samnite samples.
    3.) Historical data and archaeological show the overcrowded cities of Italy being populated with people from East Mediterranean like in Rome and Pompeii.
    I have no idea what the numbers represent, if the boxes refer to the same exact y haplogroup, if it differentiates between J2b and J2a etc.

    I guess you forgot how much R1b there is in Toscana, or perhaps you didn't, and that's why you didn't include it? The overall number is high enough, but in northern Toscana it's in the 60-70% range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea what the numbers represent, if the boxes refer to the same exact y haplogroup, if it differentiates between J2b and J2a etc.

    I guess you forgot how much R1b there is in Toscana, or perhaps you didn't, and that's why you didn't include it? The overall number is high enough, but in northern Toscana it's in the 60-70% range.
    Very little of it is J2b you can find the the numbers in Maciamos pages.

    I did not forgot to include Toscana. I just used Lazio and Abruzzo as clearer example.

    Toscana's Y DNA is around 85-90% European-related yes. J2a is roughly 10% there and other Y-DNA such a J1 and (non E-V13) E are few points together.
    I don't know why Tuscans are so distant to Latins and Etruscans with all that R1b. They should've been at most, judging by Y DNA, only 10% shifted towards Cyprus but the distance is greater than that. IDK why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The reason why Anatolia outweighs other regions like the Balkans, Levant or Northern Africa in ancestry of Imperial Rome in my opinion is because:
    - Most migrations in Roman Empire were driven by slavery and the biggest slave market was settled in Delos. And it was significantly greater than any other market (the difference was not a small margin). And given the geography most slaves in Delos were of Anatolian origin. The second biggest market was Rhodes which also like Delos dealt with slaves largely of Anatolian ancestral heritage.
    - Anatolia had a higher population than Italy, Levant, Balkans, Iberia so that might've played a role. The eastern shift in Rome Republic to Imperial Rome was caused:
    1.) Slavery
    2.) Soldiers
    3.) Mobility migrations (such as Merchants, Artisans etc.)
    I could swear I responded to this already, but I can't find it.

    I would suggest you go back and pick up a comprehensive history of Rome and its wars, because you seem to have forgotten the 500,000 Gauls enslaved by Caesar during the Gallic Wars, a number which even if it is exaggerated represents one of the largest number of peoples enslaved until modern times. Then we can't forget the Iberians or Germani or the Britons. On top of that, surely you didn't forget the wars in the Balkans and the tens of thousands of slaves taken from there.

    Does this stir a memory?
    Colonna Traiana-






    Now it has occurred to me in the past that there's a chance the Anatolians, many of them literate in Greek, might have been more valuable to their masters and therefore more likely to be manumitted and become clients of their former masters whereas those from illiterate lands might have been considered fit only for the latifundia, the ships, and the mines, or perhaps the gladiator schools and so didn't survive very long. That, however, is pure conjecture, although it's very likely to be true in the case of the Greeks captured during the conquest of Greece at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't see a big overlap between Anatolia and Italy in Y dna nor in phenotypes.
    Because there is no overlap. It is pseudo science. Also, J2a is a macro haplogroup designation with a formation date of 28700 years and TMRCA of 18300 years, it predates any of the ethnic affiliations that user desperately tried to make. I guess those Minoan J2a1 were also just "Imperial Roman" Anatolians from late antiquity that somehow travelled back in time. There is a clear pattern, I am sure you've already noticed, in the repetitive non evidential non sense from the Levantist-Anatolian fan club.

    Just an example: an ancient sample from Ancona, Italy roughly 7290 year old https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947*/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Very little of it is J2b you can find the the numbers in Maciamos pages.

    I did not forgot to include Toscana. I just used Lazio and Abruzzo as clearer example.

    Toscana's Y DNA is around 85-90% European-related yes. J2a is roughly 10% there and other Y-DNA such a J1 and (non E-V13) E are few points together.
    I don't know why Tuscans are so distant to Latins and Etruscans with all that R1b. They should've been at most, judging by Y DNA, only 10% shifted towards Cyprus but the distance is greater than that. IDK why.
    Did it ever occur to you that the calculators upon which you rely are faulty? I would also point out that J2a has been in Italy since the Bronze Age, or had you forgotten?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I could swear I responded to this already, but I can't find it.

    I would suggest you go back and pick up a comprehensive history of Rome and its wars, because you seem to have forgotten the 500,000 Gauls enslaved by Caesar during the Gallic Wars, a number which even if it is exaggerated represents one of the largest number of peoples enslaved until modern times. Then we can't forget the Iberians or Germani or the Britons. On top of that, surely you didn't forget the wars in the Balkans and the tens of thousands of slaves taken from there.

    Does this stir a memory?
    Colonna Traiana-






    Now it has occurred to me in the past that there's a chance the Anatolians, many of them literate in Greek, might have been more valuable to their masters and therefore more likely to be manumitted and become clients of their former masters whereas those from illiterate lands might have been considered fit only for the latifundia, the ships, and the mines, or perhaps the gladiator schools and so didn't survive very long. That, however, is pure conjecture, although it's very likely to be true in the case of the Greeks captured during the conquest of Greece at least.
    (Yes those numbers are hyperbolic according to historian 200,000 slaves rebelled in Sicily. That is a huge number and far away from reality.)

    Actually I have done research about that. And I have asked that question to myself: what about so many Gaul's that were enslaved or other people.
    So I have not come up with an ideal answer but I can say this:
    1.) Regardless of how many Britons, Iberians or Gauls that were enslaved, in Sicily the slaves were overwhelmingly from Eastern Mediterranean. That's a historical fact.
    the nationalities of the known world could be seen, but most of the slaves in Sicily had their origins in the eastern Mediterranean. The owner of slaves, in Roman antiquity, had complete power over them, even that of life and death
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Spartacus/qfmEfDsq-6IC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=most+slaves+in+sicily+eastern+ mediterranean&pg=PA118&printsec=frontcover

    The same is also true for Pompeii after 80BC.
    Not aware for other regions.
    2.) Enslavement of Thracians or Gauls does not necessarily imply this population was transplanted to Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Did it ever occur to you that the calculators upon which you rely are faulty? I would also point out that J2a has been in Italy since the Bronze Age, or had you forgotten?
    It's not just the amateur calculators, it is the same thing in academic PCA. Some times I am skeptical whenever they are both faulty you know. Academics are not omniscient either.

    J2a did exist in Italy and some other parts of Europe but outside of Greece and Greek colonies it was a not significant line. The Campanian study has over 100 Italic samples so we will see.

    Let's wait and see what Reich says about the shift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Very little of it is J2b you can find the the numbers in Maciamos pages.

    I did not forgot to include Toscana. I just used Lazio and Abruzzo as clearer example.

    Toscana's Y DNA is around 85-90% European-related yes. J2a is roughly 10% there and other Y-DNA such a J1 and (non E-V13) E are few points together.
    I don't know why Tuscans are so distant to Latins and Etruscans with all that R1b. They should've been at most, judging by Y DNA, only 10% shifted towards Cyprus but the distance is greater than that. IDK why.
    I honestly don’t understand your point.Are you saying that J2A isn’t Euro related? What about G which has been around since the Neolithic. I honestly feel like you’re trying to draw a connection between haplogroips and genetic admixture.

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    People talk about everything here except the topic of the post. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I honestly don’t understand your point.Are you saying that J2A isn’t Euro related? What about G which has been around since the Neolithic. I honestly feel like you’re trying to draw a connection between haplogroips and genetic admixture.
    My belief is that J2a outside of Ancient Greece in Pre-Hellenistic Europe was very rare.
    G was pretty common among Balkan Samples and other regions too, G is an other story.

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    I've never seen a paper be delayed like this. It's truly astonishing. It's been on the works for years, and now it's "hopefully" next year, meaning it may even be released in 2024 or beyond. Maybe because its authors know the conclusion is a pile of horse manure and they're trying to hide it? Harvard is trying its best to "disprove" all the "mUh aRyAn SumPremicAy" theories.

    Honestly, the "anti-racists" are just as bad as the racists. Instead of letting reality just be reality, everyone wants history to "prove" or "disprove" something. Maybe people back then lived life without giving a shit about the political consequences of what happened 6,000 years later because someone discovered some of their bone fragments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I've never seen a paper be delayed like this. It's truly astonishing. It's been on the works for years, and now it's "hopefully" next year, meaning it may even be released in 2024 or beyond. Maybe because its authors know the conclusion is a pile of horse manure and they're trying to hide it? Harvard is trying its best to "disprove" all the "mUh aRyAn SumPremicAy" theories.

    Honestly, the "anti-racists" are just as bad as the racists. Instead of letting reality just be reality, everyone wants history to "prove" or "disprove" something. Maybe people back then lived life without giving a shit about the political consequences of what happened 6,000 years later because someone discovered some of their bone fragments?
    Why are you so confident that it is "political"? What if this is reality, and you are just allowing your own biases to fool yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Why are you so confident that it is "political"? What if this is reality, and you are just allowing your own biases to fool yourself?
    Also, why stop here, and not argue that Out of Africa is a political theory too? Maybe that's the next step, or I guess maternal an paternal phylogeny is too hard to work around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I've never seen a paper be delayed like this. It's truly astonishing. It's been on the works for years, and now it's "hopefully" next year, meaning it may even be released in 2024 or beyond. Maybe because its authors know the conclusion is a pile of horse manure and they're trying to hide it? Harvard is trying its best to "disprove" all the "mUh aRyAn SumPremicAy" theories.
    Honestly, the "anti-racists" are just as bad as the racists. Instead of letting reality just be reality, everyone wants history to "prove" or "disprove" something. Maybe people back then lived life without giving a shit about the political consequences of what happened 6,000 years later because someone discovered some of their bone fragments?
    No
    The balkan paper is the delayed one
    Next year thats what carles told me in email
    The southern arc paper( which is the topic of this thread) i believe soon ( thats what erikl86 from anthrogenica said he was in david lecture in jerusalem)
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    (Yes those numbers are hyperbolic according to historian 200,000 slaves rebelled in Sicily. That is a huge number and far away from reality.)

    Actually I have done research about that. And I have asked that question to myself: what about so many Gaul's that were enslaved or other people.
    So I have not come up with an ideal answer but I can say this:
    1.) Regardless of how many Britons, Iberians or Gauls that were enslaved, in Sicily the slaves were overwhelmingly from Eastern Mediterranean. That's a historical fact.
    the nationalities of the known world could be seen, but most of the slaves in Sicily had their origins in the eastern Mediterranean. The owner of slaves, in Roman antiquity, had complete power over them, even that of life and death
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Spartacus/qfmEfDsq-6IC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=most+slaves+in+sicily+eastern+ mediterranean&pg=PA118&printsec=frontcover

    The same is also true for Pompeii after 80BC.
    Not aware for other regions.
    2.) Enslavement of Thracians or Gauls does not necessarily imply this population was transplanted to Italy.
    "And I have asked that question to myself: what about so many Gaul's that were enslaved or other people.
    So I have not come up with an ideal answer..."

    Here's what it tells me, Roman slaves were not a big impact on local genetics. "Eastern Mediterranean" (i.e. aegeans/anatolian-like) were a source population already present before Romans, at least partly brought by Greek Colonies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    No
    The balkan paper is the delayed one
    Next year thats what carles told me in email
    The southern arc paper( which is the topic of this thread) i believe soon ( thats what erikl86 from anthrogenica said he was in david lecture in jerusalem)
    Thanks for keeping us up to date.

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    I personally think that we have to wait and see before we can make up our minds or evaluate what's going on here. After the Southern Arc paper is published we don't need to speculate and can go straight for the info. With that being said, can we really absolutely rule out that the bias and worldview of the involved researchers don't affect the research? After all, scientists are human and have the same biases as everyone else. Besides, if you've read the interviews with several geneticists that I have read. And thus witnessed how they've used Ancient DNA findings to promote mass migration and open borders TODAY, then you'd started to become wary too. That's why I read the conclusions of researchers with caution. The thing is that apparently, scientists don't always go strictly by the raw and nacked data but at times they go only by their interpretation of the data.


    Btw, Razib Khan who is from the scientific field seems to confirm my observation.


    If you have a moment, I would appreciate a five-star (I may mention this on my podcast at some point, I don’t push this heavily).

    I’ve been writing on this blog for 20 years. One sad trend is that a huge swath of academics are becoming incredibly conformist, censorious and ideologically motivated. Yes, this tendency was always there in a field like sociology, for example, but now it’s everywhere. The public doesn’t even know the tenth of it from what the stuff I hear. Just keep your skeptical hat on…

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/author/razib-khan/

    Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this is the case here. Perhaps we'll realize after these 3 papers from Havard come out that we needn't have worried about bias and agenda-driven research and that we made too much of that issue.

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    ^^I can't seem to find that quote from him in the link.

    *Nevermind, I see it in the open thread section.

    Well, I wonder how he would feel about people saying that in relation to covid research. Which he was adamant about defending.

    "Micro-chips dude!, 5G coming out of your ears"

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    Let's see what he has to say for my question, if he responds:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I can't seem to find that quote from him in the link.
    I tried to insert the screenshot but it doesn't show up.

    Anyway, you can find Khan's quote here:

    Open Thread – 7/17/2022 – Gene Expression



    edited. I see you've already found the quote.

    I'm also curious about Khan's respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I've never seen a paper be delayed like this. It's truly astonishing. It's been on the works for years, and now it's "hopefully" next year, meaning it may even be released in 2024 or beyond. Maybe because its authors know the conclusion is a pile of horse manure and they're trying to hide it? Harvard is trying its best to "disprove" all the "mUh aRyAn SumPremicAy" theories.

    Honestly, the "anti-racists" are just as bad as the racists. Instead of letting reality just be reality, everyone wants history to "prove" or "disprove" something. Maybe people back then lived life without giving a shit about the political consequences of what happened 6,000 years later because someone discovered some of their bone fragments?
    Is there anything left for the racists in what you call 'reality'? Everything that population genetics has shown in recent years destroys centuries of racist thinking.

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    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value [Looking online, there’s a 2012 paper that indicates that modern Armenians have of the specifically Yamnaya R1b lineage. If this, true might explain why Armenian is so hard to place within a Indo-European tree, as Celtic, Germanic, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian seem to come out of a broader Corded Ware cultural complex], making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows [David of Eurogenes does not like this, but this could mean Anatolian and CHG/Iranian pulses?], both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal. The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022/06/19/new-david-reich-talk/
    Here's an excerpt from his post on the David Reich lecture.

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