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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    (Yes those numbers are hyperbolic according to historian 200,000 slaves rebelled in Sicily. That is a huge number and far away from reality.)

    Actually I have done research about that. And I have asked that question to myself: what about so many Gaul's that were enslaved or other people.
    So I have not come up with an ideal answer but I can say this:
    1.) Regardless of how many Britons, Iberians or Gauls that were enslaved, in Sicily the slaves were overwhelmingly from Eastern Mediterranean. That's a historical fact.
    the nationalities of the known world could be seen, but most of the slaves in Sicily had their origins in the eastern Mediterranean. The owner of slaves, in Roman antiquity, had complete power over them, even that of life and death
    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Spartacus/qfmEfDsq-6IC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=most+slaves+in+sicily+eastern+ mediterranean&pg=PA118&printsec=frontcover

    The same is also true for Pompeii after 80BC.
    Not aware for other regions.
    2.) Enslavement of Thracians or Gauls does not necessarily imply this population was transplanted to Italy.
    You've got to be kidding me. You're taking a quote from a book about the old movie on Spartacus starring Kirk Douglas? Did you notice that there's no citation for that quote?

    Are you going to quote from picture books next?

    Some of you people don't have the foggiest clue what constitutes actual scholarship.

    You're going to have to go back on ignore until you can string together a logically cohesive statement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I tried to insert the screenshot but it doesn't show up.

    Anyway, you can find Khan's quote here:

    Open Thread – 7/17/2022 – Gene Expression



    edited. I see you've already found the quote.

    I'm also curious about Khan's respond.
    Cool, I received a response:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Coon early on seemed to hold to a form of multi-regionalism which can be fit into what we know today but later on he came to the same form of multi-regionalism that Kossina held. His classifications are over at some sites the place where the majority of discussion takes place. For example, over at the Apricity, anytime I go to get a sense of what is being discussed (I am not a member so can't post), the Anthropology forum has like 1800 active members and Coon's classifications are like the 4 Gospels to a traditional Catholic or Eastern Orthodox person. On the other hand, the section for DNA Scientific papers may have 200 members. Of course in his pyramid, the English were the top of the food chain, the Germans and other Nordics were their close cousins. The Alpine, Mediterranean, Baltic, etc, etc. So in the USA, this is where the term elite WASP is used since the WASP viewed English language, literature, culture and physical phenotypes, etc as the standards that all other peoples are to be measured. Coon would be in my opinion more broadly categorized as a WASP-Nordicist.

    If I recall, Coon was Jewish, so hardly a WASP. Apricity's "Bible" (Coon's "Races of Europe"), not surprisingly, shows an extensive (and favorable) study of Jews.

    It's been decades, but I don't recall any "pyramid" or hierarchical tone whatsoever. Quite the opposite. As an older gentleman, I've been watching more and more of his work being slowly and steadily "proved" with modern genetics over the years. It's creepy, actually. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this Reich paper vindicates more of Coon's work. Of particular interest is his old "Nordic genesis" theory and how it relates to IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    If I recall, Coon was Jewish, so hardly a WASP. Apricity's "Bible" (Coon's "Races of Europe"), not surprisingly, shows an extensive (and favorable) study of Jews.

    It's been decades, but I don't recall any "pyramid" or hierarchical tone whatsoever. Quite the opposite. As an older gentleman, I've been watching more and more of his work being slowly and steadily "proved" with modern genetics over the years. It's creepy, actually. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this Reich paper vindicates more of Coon's work. Of particular interest is his old "Nordic genesis" theory and how it relates to IE.
    Coon was Cornish American so WASP enough.
    His "Races of Europe" is a dog's breakfast especially linking Indo-European languages to the long-headed Nordic phenotype.

    Even Lawrence Angel was more accurate when he named a Nordic-Iranian type as ONE component of a heterogenous Indo-European cluster among the ancient Greeks, his main focus of study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Coon was Cornish American so WASP enough.
    His "Races of Europe" is a dog's breakfast especially linking Indo-European languages to the long-headed Nordic phenotype.

    Even Lawrence Angel was more accurate when he named a Nordic-Iranian type as ONE component of a heterogenous Indo-European cluster among the ancient Greeks, his main focus of study.
    I thought he was Jewish as well. Anyway, "Iranian" is what I was getting at since, supposedly, that was one of the key progenitors that ended up on the step and was associated with the "Corded" type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    I thought he was Jewish as well. Anyway, "Iranian" is what I was getting at since, supposedly, that was one of the key progenitors that ended up on the step and was associated with the "Corded" type.
    I think Lawrence Angel was more on the ball than Carleton Coon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    I think the fixation exists because some ethnic groups (richer in steppe ancestry) want to feel like the dominating masters of Europe. If all the great European civilizations stopped speaking native languages ​​and started to speak Indo-European languages; for them this means that the Indo-Europeans are the 'masters' behind all the great European civilizations. It was a very common thesis among the Nazis. For them the pre-Indo-European farmers are the 'plebs' and the elites the 'masters' who carried new languages ​​and new cultures. It seems to be a kind of colonial mentality within Europe. Here in Brazil the native and African populations were seen as the slaves/dominated, while the Portuguese were the dominators.
    I think the original Indo-European-speakers were heterogenous from earliest times and many were more like modern Iranians than modern North Europeans.

    Also a civilisation and an economy is created by craftsmen, workers and peasants not unskilled savages whose only skill is killing unarmed working people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I think the original Indo-European-speakers were heterogenous from earliest times and many were more like modern Iranians than modern North Europeans.

    Also a civilisation and an economy is created by craftsmen, workers and peasants not unskilled savages whose only skill is killing unarmed working people.
    First of all, they were not unskilled savages by any means, but had their advantages. Secondly, most civilisations became weak over time, and prey to more warlike pastoralists, which had a better demography and cohesion, were more flexible, among other things. And that doesn't apply to IE only, but e.g. Semites too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I think the original Indo-European-speakers were heterogenous from earliest times and many were more like modern Iranians than modern North Europeans.

    Also a civilisation and an economy is created by craftsmen, workers and peasants not unskilled savages whose only skill is killing unarmed working people.
    How about comparing craftsmen skills with actual craftsmen-snps between the steppe, southern Arc, and farmers from Europe? For example the wheel, or pottery..
    Can you give a craftsman example from each region.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You've got to be kidding me. You're taking a quote from a book about the old movie on Spartacus starring Kirk Douglas? Did you notice that there's no citation for that quote?Are you going to quote from picture books next? Some of you people don't have the foggiest clue what constitutes actual scholarship.You're going to have to go back on ignore until you can string together a logically cohesive statement.
    Most slaves in Sicily came from Eastern Mediterranean according to Diodorus Siculus. There was a large slave revolt started by a Syrian, Cicilian and a Greek in Sicily.Also in Pompeii most slaves came from the east and they had Greek names. https://www.google.com/books/edition...=frontcoverThe 60% free population also includes freedmen. Freeborns were a minority in Pompeii.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Most slaves in Sicily came from Eastern Mediterranean according to Diodorus Siculus. There was a large slave revolt started by a Syrian, Cicilian and a Greek in Sicily.Also in Pompeii most slaves came from the east and they had Greek names. https://www.google.com/books/edition...=frontcoverThe 60% free population also includes freedmen. Freeborns were a minority in Pompeii.
    Pulp pseudo-history for the semi literate. Next you'll present a tourist brochure as evidence.

    1. There was a large slave revolt in Sicily
    2. The reputed leaders were a Cilician and a Greek
    3. All slaves in Sicily were from Anatolia

    The third conclusion is supposed to logically flow from the first two. Don't you see that it doesn't?

    Slaves had Greek names because their owners named them. Plus, has it escaped your awareness that you were talking about Anatolians, not Greeks?

    A Greek "historian" also told us that the Etruscans came from Anatolia in the first millennium B.C. When are some people going to get that "historians" of the Classical Era were not historians in the modern sense.

    On top of all that, slaves on latifundia were not breeding very much. Most of them were worked to death rather quickly, as were those in the mines and rowing the galleys.

    I rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Pulp pseudo-history for the semi literate. Next you'll present a tourist brochure as evidence.

    1. There was a large slave revolt in Sicily
    2. The reputed leaders were a Cilician and a Greek
    3. All slaves in Sicily were from Anatolia

    The third conclusion is supposed to logically flow from the first two. Don't you see that it doesn't?

    Slaves had Greek names because their owners named them. Plus, has it escaped your awareness that you were talking about Anatolians, not Greeks?

    A Greek "historian" also told us that the Etruscans came from Anatolia in the first millennium B.C. When are some people going to get that "historians" of the Classical Era were not historians in the modern sense.

    On top of all that, slaves on latifundia were not breeding very much. Most of them were worked to death rather quickly, as were those in the mines and rowing the galleys.

    I rest my case.
    I said most slaves in Sicily came from Eastern Mediterranean. In which I believe the Anatolian element was more dominant even though I don't have much evidence to back this up.

    There are even books dedicated this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Servile_War

    https://www.amazon.com/Romes-Sicilia.../dp/1526767465

    Wait until the new studies come up and we will see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    How about comparing craftsmen skills with actual craftsmen-snps between the steppe, southern Arc, and farmers from Europe? For example the wheel, or pottery..
    Can you give a craftsman example from each region.
    What are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    First of all, they were not unskilled savages by any means, but had their advantages. Secondly, most civilisations became weak over time, and prey to more warlike pastoralists, which had a better demography and cohesion, were more flexible, among other things. And that doesn't apply to IE only, but e.g. Semites too.

    How are pastoralists more "flexible" than agriculturalists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What are you talking about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How are pastoralists more "flexible" than agriculturalists?
    https://musaeumscythia.blogspot.com/2021/10/

    The oldest known iron smiths of Europe - New evidence for meteoric iron objects belonging the Yamnaya culture

    R1b-Z2103>Z-2108+ Iron objects


    In total there were six iron objects found in the Boldyrevo I grave. One of these artefacts was an iron knife, with a blade of roughly 14 centimeters long, another was an adze and another was a chisel-like object. The other three objects were not able to be properly identified.

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    How can you prove these iron items were not made by ethnic or cultural outsiders?

    Up until very recent times Bedouin pastoralists depended on an outcast tribe called the Sleyb/Solubba as ironworkers and tinkers.

    Pastoralists do not have the skill or training to make such objects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How can you prove these iron items were not made by ethnic or cultural outsiders?

    Up until very recent times Bedouin pastoralists depended on an outcast tribe called the Sleyb/Solubba as ironworkers and tinkers.

    Pastoralists do not have the skill or training to make such objects.
    Bedouin speak Afro-Asiatic-There is no word for wheel in proto-Afro Asiatic. Perhaps you can give an example of a wheel and iron, in the group you think crafted them.

    Here is another example of metal work R1b-Z2103>z2108

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nze_Metallurgy'
    Baltic-Pontic Studies
    vol. 22: 2017, 226-245
    ISSN 1231-0344
    DOI 10.1515/bps-2017-0027
    Viktor I. Klochko*
    YAMNAYA CULTURE HOARD OF METAL OBJECTS,
    IVANIVKA, LOWER MURAFA: AUTOGENESIS
    OF ‘DNIESTER COPPER/BRONZE
    METALLURGY

    Ivonivka type’ is the best t, belonging to the decline YC. The objects from the Ivonivka Hoard (Fig. 1: 2) are one of akind; it is the rst
    discovery of such and of ametal tool from the early Bronze Age in the north-
    ern Black Sea Region. The artefacts from the hoard (Fig. 1: 3, 4) have asimilar
    form to that of Eneolithic ‘Usatovo’ and ‘Maykop’ at axe-adzes in the Anatolia
    tradition, though diering signicantly in their smaller dimensions, though among
    ‘Maykop’ samples there also occur similarly small products (Fig. 12: 4-6; 7).
    It is possible to suggest that the ‘Ivonivka Hoard’ reects the craftwork of
    amaster carpenter, which ought to be dated to the late phase of the YC. It is par-
    ticularly interesting to nd analogies of this with the wooden cart from site 6 in
    Pysarivka near Yampil [Harat, Potupczyk, Razumow 2014: 142-145] in respect to
    its possible constructors and place of workshop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    First of all, they were not unskilled savages by any means, but had their advantages. Secondly, most civilisations became weak over time, and prey to more warlike pastoralists, which had a better demography and cohesion, were more flexible, among other things. And that doesn't apply to IE only, but e.g. Semites too.
    I agree with the bolded comment.

    As to being more "flexible", that I don't see. People adapt to their environment. The Natufian hunter-gatherers adapted to an environment where there was plenty. They were smart enough to figure out that they could store the grains from plants in their environment, then plant them in suitable nearby areas, then domesticate the animals in their vicinity.

    People living in an environment hostile to agriculture lived on hunting and fishing. When they traded furs, perhaps, for goods from farmers they realized they could trade for these animals which could probably live off the steppe grass.

    It's as simple as that.

    The farmers of the Balkans were "flexible" and smart enough to realize that maybe they could use naturally occurring ores to make ornaments, then tools, then they were flexible enough to experiment with combining the ores. The steppe people just traded for metal goods. Eventually they did try to copy them, but the original attempts were very primitive.

    Humans adapt or die.

    As for turning to pastoralism when agriculture failed, I'm sure you're aware that there's quite a bit of literature indicating that actually, pastoralism was first attempted by farmers and it spread from them to the steppe.

    In fact, I'm hard pressed to think what the steppe people "invented", other than piling their goods on carts and going to the new pastures versus transhumanism as practiced by farmers to this day. That, and the "real" advantage, the domestication of the horse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Bedouin speak Afro-Asiatic-There is no word for wheel in proto-Afro Asiatic. Perhaps you can give an example of a wheel and iron, in the group you think crafted them.

    Here is another example of metal work R1b-Z2103>z2108

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nze_Metallurgy'
    Baltic-Pontic Studies
    vol. 22: 2017, 226-245
    ISSN 1231-0344
    DOI 10.1515/bps-2017-0027
    Viktor I. Klochko*
    YAMNAYA CULTURE HOARD OF METAL OBJECTS,
    IVANIVKA, LOWER MURAFA: AUTOGENESIS
    OF ‘DNIESTER COPPER/BRONZE
    METALLURGY
    You are an expert in proto-Afro-Asiatic now?

    The Steppe people got ironworking from migrants from south of the Caucasus mountains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    In fact, I'm hard pressed to think what the steppe people "invented", other than piling their goods on carts and going to the new pastures versus transhumanism as practiced by farmers to this day. That, and the "real" advantage, the domestication of the horse.
    That just about sums it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You are an expert in proto-Afro-Asiatic now?

    The Steppe people got ironworking from migrants from south of the Caucasus mountains.
    You mean R1b-Z2103>z2108+ traded(traded for their wheels and wagons and iron) with Maykop? Can you give an example.


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    Maybe your thinking of wheeled wagons and iron among the Elamites. Perhaps that is who the Hittites learned from, not Maykop?
    Elamite, also known as Hatamtite, is an extinct language that was spoken by the ancient Elamites. It was used in present-day southwestern Iran from 2600 BC to 330 BC.[1] Elamite works disappear from the archeological record after Alexander the Great entered Iran. Elamite is generally thought to have no demonstrable relatives and is usually considered a language isolate. The lack of established relatives makes its interpretation difficult.[2]


    Where was the first known wheel, dating back to the Copper Age (i.e., 4000-3000 BC), invented?

    https://quizzclub.com/trivia/where-w...nswer/1512356/

    Though the evidence is not definitive, the first wheels might not have been found on vehicles but used to make pottery. The pottery itself is one of humanity’s earliest inventions (if you include ceramic figurines, the process dates back at least 20,000 years). But it wasn’t until about 4500 BC that potter’s wheels were definitively used in the process. Evidence of wheeled vehicles, likely drawn by oxen, dates back to 4000-3000 BC.

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    I'm happy to see Razib Khan does indeed have confidence in David Reich and Nick Patterson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I'm happy to see Razib Khan does indeed have confidence in David Reich and Nick Patterson.
    maybe he happen to know when this paper will finally be out ?

    P.s
    I now sent email to david reich
    Asking when it will be published
    Let us hope he will answere
    Last edited by kingjohn; 31-07-22 at 23:51.
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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