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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If you read Aristotle's Politica, he asserts that Greeks, were capable of self-rule, and that non-Greeks were natural slaves, who were exploited as to reach their full potential.

    Obviously, no group is a monolith, just like not everyone in Nazi Germany, was a Nazi, or everyone in the USSR was a communist.
    Also, many of the preceding Greeks from the Mycenaeans were likely genetically similar according to the Biomuse PCA, which documents Greeks from the mesolithic to the middle ages.


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    Iron Age Greeks in Italy similar to Bronze Age Mycenaeans.

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    It is funny, why doesn't anyone celebrate Bantus for being war-like pastoralists, or other SSA groups for retaining a hunter-gatherer lifestyle?

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    Not even sure what I just read in the last two pages of the thread.

    Like, cant tell if you people disagree with each other since on both camps more or less the same facts are being reaffirmed.

    The fact of the matter is there is a reason from Ireland to Northern India, Indo European languages are spoken. Few places in between, ie Anatolia, where that is not the case, the why and how still has something to do with the steppe.

    These are just the facts. Otherwise David Reich, Lazardis, Patterson, Anthony etc would not waste their time paper after paper, year after year, trying to narrow down the IE homeland. I have an idea what the replies to this will be, "but eastern Anatolia", to which a simple steppe as a secondary homeland and vector of expansion should be an obvious reply.
    In fact it feels of all the academics I mentioned, contrary to what some blogs were arguing against for years, Anthony might have been right on the money. More so I am interested in seeing if these IA(Indo-Anatolian) languages have anything to do with CHG waves in Anatolia, cause in that case CHG as not only a female mediated phenomena into the steppe would be vindicated. And could explain a lot as far as Y DNA discrepancies go.

    PS: I feel bad for Silesian, he keeps being asked for sources, provides, then when he asks in kind gets gaslighted, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Let's pretend I agree with you that this was the case with all of the Greek city states.

    You think the elevation of warfare as the supreme good is to be admired? It's to be admired in their culture even when it's completely hypocritical? In this scenario, the culture believes that the fact that it can, through the use of arms, enslave other people makes them superior, and the vanquished inferior.

    You don't know where that leads? It leads to things like the Lombard laws creating a permanent underclass. The same thing can be seen in the Anglo-Saxon laws about the Britons. Ultimately it leads to Nazi ideology.

    That's an absolutely amoral and disturbing view, imo.

    Plus, I think it's incorrect. There was at least one culture in Greece which believed these things: Sparta. Great warriors, but practically illiterate. Give me Athens every time. That's the tradition which created western culture, which produced philosophers, doctors, scientists, poets, playwrights, and on and on.
    These people like to glorify war, violence and 'conquests'. If someone is not like that (or a 'population' is not like that) they are 'cowards and inferior'. It's Nazi fantasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The fact of the matter is there is a reason from Ireland to Northern India, Indo European languages are spoken. Few places in between, ie Anatolia, where that is not the case, the why and how still has something to do with the steppe.
    There's no doubt that the presence of the haplogroups, and autosomal DNA point to a large scale expansion from the steppe. Surely, it is responsible for spreading the language in many cases. But just like the adoption of Arabic numerals in places where there were no Arabs, could also be the same dynamic for the spread of some IE.

    Then there's the spread of religion, well Christianity is a perfect example of how foreign beliefs can travel to people who had nothing to do with the development. Christianity is synonymous with Europe, more so than the middle east where it came from.

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    Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out. Apart from the CHG waves into Anatolia, I am really interested around the cradle of civilization, for which we have no samples right now, namely Mesopotamia, Uruk etc... Fascinating people that have been studied for centuries, but for whom DNA is lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out. Apart from the CHG waves into Anatolia, I am really interested around the cradle of civilization, for which we have no samples right now, namely Mesopotamia, Uruk etc... Fascinating people that have been studied for centuries, but for whom DNA is lacking.
    Urartu should be interesting as well, especially considering the biblical dispersal of the sons of Noah. I wonder if the new papers will provide any correlation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Urartu should be interesting as well, especially considering the biblical dispersal of the sons of Noah. I wonder if the new papers will provide any correlation.
    I think the very title of the paper is a shoutout to the fertile crescent. But I could be wrong.



    I made a post earlier with some sources, on how flood myths could have been a result of earlier smaller settlements being flooded due to glaciers melting post glacial maximum 20-8kya. Leading to early communities that survived fleeing uphill and consolidating into larger communities.





    Here is the post I made some months ago:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...at-Flood-Myths

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out.
    Great timing, because I'll be just coming back from visiting Anatolia/Turkey (Istanbul, Ephesus), Greece (Islands and mainland), and Italy (Rome). It will be nice to be off the grid for those two weeks too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Great timing, because I'll be just coming back from visiting Anatolia (Istanbul, Ephesus), Greece (Islands and mainland), and Italy (Rome).
    Hope the heatwave that just passed does not repeat, cause up to a week ago it was unbearable ~110F. But at least the sea should help cool off either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Hope the heatwave that just passed does not repeat, cause up to a week ago it was unbearable ~110F. But at least the sea should help cool off either way.
    It's been pretty hot here too, but the most it has gone was 100 F for a day or two. But the humidity makes you feel like you are walking through soup.

    I mostly drive around when I go to NYC now, but I remember in 2018, I believe we had 100 F almost regularly. Nothing worse than the smell of hot garbage baking on a concrete slab. Back then, it was before I discovered "Spot hero" which has really revolutionized driving in the city I find. It allows you to shop for cheap parking garage, and you get a reduced price than the regular cost. Otherwise, trying to find parking in the city, is like a layer of hell from Dante's inferno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think the very title of the paper is a shoutout to the fertile crescent. But I could be wrong.



    I made a post earlier with some sources, on how flood myths could have been a result of earlier smaller settlements being flooded due to glaciers melting post glacial maximum 20-8kya. Leading to early communities that survived fleeing uphill and consolidating into larger communities.





    Here is the post I made some months ago:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...at-Flood-Myths
    I think there may be some sample from Urartu, given this excerpt from the abstract. But we'll know for sure in a few weeks:

    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu.

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    The ETA is end of August?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    The ETA is end of August?
    That's what the rumors say. But you never know, people have been waiting for this paper since September last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, e.g.:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_laws

    They were less cruel and inhumane in their punishments, as well as more concerned about the individual, more generally speaking. This is something I have read multiple times in various secondary sources on the Hittites.



    Their strength was also their weakness, because their rulers were not as much god-given as those of the local Oriental empires, and their structure was more federal and aristocratic, in comparison. This resulted in more inner tumult and conflicts, a weaker cohesion. Basically the quotations your brought up just proved that.

    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=&amp][SIZE=4][FONT=arial]

    The Greeks had a unique free and logical spirit, a specific approach to art and life, which was no longer bound by as much superstition and religious restriction. I highly doubt the Minoans were the same, but its very unfortunate we don't know more about them and their writings (Linear A) being still not really fully deciphered.
    It's always a good idea, given that every Tom, Dick, and Harry can "edit" Wiki articles, to go read the citation for any statement of fact. The citation about the their law code merely lists some of their provisions. It makes no comparison to the Code of Hammurabi. That was the OPINION of the unknown writer of that Wiki article.

    It would seem logical to me that the original, much more harsh collection "might" be closer to the laws which the Hittites might have brought with them. In time, and having to rule over groups with differing rules, those different viewpoints might have been ameliorated. Or, since they were illiterate initially, they may just have adopted local laws in the beginning, and changed them over time. Of course, this is all conjecture. None of us has a crystal ball.

    What we do know, however, is that there were differences within the Near East in terms of their laws.

    According to some authors the Sumerian system was the most humane and treated women better, with the Assyrians on the other end of the scale.
    https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover


    What is also true is that we are fortunate to have different versions chronologically of the Laws of the Hittites, which we do not have for the Code of Hammurabi, so we do not know if and how it may have changed over time.

    At any rate, I don't see what this has to do with the Indo-Europeans, as the use of payment to a victim, which seems to have been part of proto-Indo-European society, was also a feature in the Near East.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Not even sure what I just read in the last two pages of the thread.

    Like, cant tell if you people disagree with each other since on both camps more or less the same facts are being reaffirmed.

    The fact of the matter is there is a reason from Ireland to Northern India, Indo European languages are spoken. Few places in between, ie Anatolia, where that is not the case, the why and how still has something to do with the steppe.

    These are just the facts. Otherwise David Reich, Lazardis, Patterson, Anthony etc would not waste their time paper after paper, year after year, trying to narrow down the IE homeland. I have an idea what the replies to this will be, "but eastern Anatolia", to which a simple steppe as a secondary homeland and vector of expansion should be an obvious reply.
    In fact it feels of all the academics I mentioned, contrary to what some blogs were arguing against for years, Anthony might have been right on the money. More so I am interested in seeing if these IA(Indo-Anatolian) languages have anything to do with CHG waves in Anatolia, cause in that case CHG as not only a female mediated phenomena into the steppe would be vindicated. And could explain a lot as far as Y DNA discrepancies go.

    PS: I feel bad for Silesian, he keeps being asked for sources, provides, then when he asks in kind gets gaslighted, lol.
    Perhaps I've missed some posts in this unending thread.

    All I've seen in his threads has been that Indo-Europeans eventually used iron. I didn't want to be disrespectful and say, "so what", but that's actually the appropriate response.

    They didn't invent it; they were poor metallurgists; they were good at copying.

    If what people want to know is the history of metallurgy, with which everyone should by now be familiar, btw, just use the search engine putting in metallurgy, We have a couple of dedicated threads.

    Do we have to reinvent the wheel, pun intended, at this late stage of the game?

    People who have spent a long time here know the answers. Newer members will have to catch up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps I've missed some posts in this unending thread.

    All I've seen in his threads has been that Indo-Europeans eventually used iron. I didn't want to be disrespectful and say, "so what", but that's actually the appropriate response.

    They didn't invent it; they were poor metallurgists; they were good at copying.

    If what people want to know is the history of metallurgy, with which everyone should by now be familiar, btw, just use the search engine putting in metallurgy, We have a couple of dedicated threads.

    Do we have to reinvent the wheel, pun intended, at this late stage of the game?

    People who have spent a long time here know the answers. Newer members will have to catch up.
    The discussion you are trying to start is too post-modern for me. Poor copycat metallurgists, thoughts and prayers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out. Apart from the CHG waves into Anatolia, I am really interested around the cradle of civilization, for which we have no samples right now, namely Mesopotamia, Uruk etc... Fascinating people that have been studied for centuries, but for whom DNA is lacking.
    Expect a lot of j2
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    I did some research and dug deeper into why the Anatolian hypothesis gained so much ground lately. What I found were several very critical articles about the methods of the proponents of the Anatolian theory. My recommendation is, just read, let it sink in, and do what you want with the information. The blog I found is called GeoCurrents. GeoCurrentsis a map-illustrated forum dedicated to global geography, especially as it relates to current events. This website seeks to provide historical background, regional analysis, and political and intellectual context for issues in the news, both major and minor, as long as they have a clear geographic expression. Cultural geography, particularly as expressed in matters of language and religion, is also emphasized. The author made a critical assessment of the reasons why the Anatolian hypothesis is now being favored in academia. I'll post here some of the articles. In my opinion, they're worth reading.


    As Wade’s title indicates, the Science article,written by Remco Bouckaert and eight others (most notably Quentin D.Atkinson), seeks to overturn the thesis that the Indo-European (I-E)family originated north of the Black and Caspian seas. It insteadlocates the I-E heartland in what is now Turkey, supporting the“Anatolian” thesis advanced a generation ago by archeologist Colin Renfrew. The Science team bases its claims on mathematical grounds, using techniques derivedfrom evolutionary biology and epidemiology to draw linguistic familytrees and model the geographical spread of language groups. Accordingto Wade, the authors claim that their study does nothing less than“solve” a “long-standing problem in archaeology: the origin ofthe Indo-European family of languages.” (Strictly speaking,however, the problem is not an archaeological one, as excavations bythemselves tell us nothing about the languages of non-literate peoples; it is rather a linguistic problem with major bearing onprehistory more generally.)
    As GeoCurrents is deeply interested in the intersection of language, geography, andhistory, the two articles immediately grabbed our attention. Ourinitial response was one of profound skepticism, as it hardly seemed likely that a single mathematical study could “solve” one of the most carefully examined conundrums of the distant human past. Recent work in both linguistics and archeology, moreover, has tended against the Anatolian hypothesis, placing Indo-European origins in the steppe and parkland zone of what is now Ukraine, southwest Russia, and environs. The massive literature on the subject was exhaustively weighed as recently as 2007 by David W. Anthony in his magisterial study, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from theEurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.Could such a brief article as that of Bouckaert etal. really overturn Anthony’s profound syntheses so easily?



    The more we examined the articles in question, the more our reservations deepened. In the Science piece, the painstaking work of generations of historical linguists who haverigorously examined Indo-European origins and expansion is shrugged off as if it were of no account, even though the study itself restsentirely on the taken-for-granted work of linguists in establishing relations among languages based on words of common descent (cognates). In Wade’s NewYork Times article, contending accounts and lines of evidence are mentioned, but in acasual and slipshod manner. More problematic are the graphics offeredby Bouckaert and company. The linguistic family trees generated by their model are clearly wrong, as we shall see in forthcoming posts.And on the website thataccompanies the article, an animated map (“movie,” according toits creators) of Indo-European expansion is so error-riddled as to beamusing, and the conventional map on the same site is almost as bad. Mathematically intricate though it may be, the model employed by theauthors nonetheless churns out demonstrably false information.
    Failing the most basic tests of verification, the Bouckaert article typifies the kind of undue reductionism that sometimes gives scientific excursions into human history and behavior a bad name, based on the belief that a few key concepts linked to clever techniques can allow one to side-step complexity, promising mathematically elegantshort-cuts to knowledge. While purporting to offer a trulyscientific* approach, Bouckaert etal. actually forward an example of scientism, or the inappropriate and overweening application of specificscientific techniques to problems that lie beyond their own purview.




    One can only speculate as to why the authors proved incapable of notingthe failure of their model to mirror reality. Did they neglect to look at their own maps, trusting that the underlying equations were so powerful that they would automatically deliver? Could their faith in their model trump their concern for empirical evidence? Or could it be that their knowledge of linguistic geography is so scanty that they do not grasp the distribution of the Russian language, much less that of Scythian? If so, they are not operating at an acceptable undergraduate level of geo-historical knowledge. Alternatively, the authors might be aware that their model generates nonsense, but prefer to pretend otherwise, hoping to buffalo the broader scholarly community. They seem, after all, to conceal their approach as much aspossible, couching their “findings” in jargon-ridden prose that proves a challenge not just for lay readers but also for specialists in neighboring subfields. (Translations of such passages as “Contourson the map represent the 95% highest posterior density distribution for the range of Indo-European” will be forthcoming.)
    Regardless of whether the authors are intentionally trying to mislead the public or have simply succeeded in fooling themselves, their work approaches scientific malpractice. Science ultimately demands empirical verification, and here the project fails miserably. If generating scads of false information does not falsify the model, what possibly could? Non-falsifiable claims are, of course, non-scientific claims. The end result is a grotesquely rationalistic and hence ultimatelyirrational approach to the human past. As such, examining the claimsmade by the Science team becomes an example of what my colleagues Robert Proctor and Londa Schiebinger have aptly deemed “agnotology,” or “the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt, particularly thepublication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data.”

    As the critique we offer is harsh and encompassing,
    GeoCurrents will devote a number of posts to examining in detail the claims made and techniques employed by Bouckaert, Atkinson, and their colleagues. But before delving into the nitty-gritty, a few words are in order aboutwhat ultimately lies at stake. We are exercised about the Science article not merely because of our passion for the seemingly esoteric issue of Indo-European origins, but also because we fear for the future of historical linguistics—and history more generally. The Bouckaert study, coupled with the mass-media celebration of the misinformation that it presents, constitutes an assault on a field that hasg enerated an extraordinary body of rigorously derived information about the human past. Such an attack occurs at an unfortunate moment, as historical linguistics is already in crisis. Linguistics departments have been cutting positions in historical inquiry for some time, creating an environment in which even the best young scholars in the field are often unable to obtain academic positions.



    On the same day, Nicholas Wade, noted NewYork Times science reporter, wrote a half-page spread in the news section ofthe Times on the Science report,entitled “FamilyTree of Languages Has Roots in Anatolia, Biologists Say.Over the next few days, the story was picked up—and often twisted in theprocess—by assorted journalists. Within a few days, headlines appeared as preposterous as “English Language Originated inTurkey.”

    https://www.geocurrents.info/cultura...al-linguistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    PS: I feel bad for Silesian, he keeps being asked for sources, provides, then when he asks in kind gets gaslighted, lol.
    I was hoping to generate a debate with ydna samples-- comparing Near East or Balkan to Yamnaya craftsmanship and dates in split mold metallurgy, and or bronze arsenic versus tin.
    Since the Hittites used iron, I was hoping to find out if they had traded for their iron with other Near Eastern cultures that specialized in iron smelting. No examples were given. Since Yamnaya copied metallurgy I was hoping to find out from where they had acquired iron, again no examples were given.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The discussion you are trying to start is too post-modern for me. Poor copycat metallurgists, thoughts and prayers
    Using words you don't understand has nothing to do with the fact that the steppe people DID NOT invent metallurgy. Metallurgy was first practiced in the Near East and the Balkans. Whether the farmers in the Balkans developed it independently or learned of the idea from farming communities in the Near East is up for debate.

    That applies to both copper and bronze.

    These are verifiable facts, many of them known for decades, but not emphasized, because they were not supportive of the preferred narrative. It's also true that as more artifacts and the remains of forges are found, the history of metallurgy must be re-written to some extent. Should those new discoveries be ignored?
    https://www.academia.edu/29656381/History_of_Metallurgy

    Iron was first smelted in Anatolia, perhaps by the Hittites, but it is also a fact that the first smelted iron artifact was found in a Hattic tomb. Imo, the people who had developed bronze, had experience with the furnaces necessary for smelting, would have been the first to develop iron or ferrous metallurgy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrous_metallurgy

    Also, I'm not trying to start anything. I've been saying the same things about metallurgy for the last 12 years. Not my problem if you didn't read my content.
    Last edited by Angela; 02-08-22 at 14:32.

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    The earliest known smelted iron might be from the steppe:

    “One unappreciated aspect of Early Bronze Age and Middle Bronze Age steppe metallurgy was its experimentation with iron. … A Catacomb-period grave at Gerasimovka on the Donets (western Russia/Ukraine), probably dated around 2500 BCE, contained a knife with a handle made of arsenical bronze and a blade made of iron. The iron did not contain magnetite or nickel, as would be expected in meteoric iron, so it is thought to have been forged. Iron objects were rare, but they were part of the experiments conducted by steppe metalsmiths during the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, long before iron began to be used in Hittite Anatolia or the Near East”

    The Horse, the Wheel, and Language : David W. Anthony
    p.336

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    1.) In Lazio and Abruzzo look at the ratio of J2a and R1b. R1b decreases while J2a increases in comparisons with Latins and Etruscans who were overwhelmingly R1b.
    Abruzzo (3) (2) (0) (1) 5 38 9 22 6 11 6 3 0 107
    3% 2% 0% 1% 4.5% 35.5% 8.5% 21% 5.5% 10.5% 5.5% 3% 0%
    Latium (33) (6) (6) (4) 8 112 43 72 7 63 18 0 7 386
    8.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1% 2% 29% 11% 18.5% 2% 16.5% 4.5% 0% 2%

    2.) Central Italians are significantly more southern shifted compared to Latins, Etruscans and the upcoming and Samnite samples.
    3.) Historical data and archaeological show the overcrowded cities of Italy being populated with people from East Mediterranean like in Rome and Pompeii.
    J2a was already found in calcolithic Italy, you might want to check this study: https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(21)00535-2 (supplementaries)

  25. #550
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-01-09
    Posts
    959

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z36

    Country: UK - Scotland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The earliest known smelted iron might be from the steppe:

    “One unappreciated aspect of Early Bronze Age and Middle Bronze Age steppe metallurgy was its experimentation with iron. … A Catacomb-period grave at Gerasimovka on the Donets (western Russia/Ukraine), probably dated around 2500 BCE, contained a knife with a handle made of arsenical bronze and a blade made of iron. The iron did not contain magnetite or nickel, as would be expected in meteoric iron, so it is thought to have been forged. Iron objects were rare, but they were part of the experiments conducted by steppe metalsmiths during the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, long before iron began to be used in Hittite Anatolia or the Near East”

    The Horse, the Wheel, and Language : David W. Anthony
    p.336
    How do you know that Steppe metalsmiths were not from Anatolia or somewhere else south of the Caucasus. Look at the modern link between Bedouin pastoralists and Solubba/Sleyb ironsmiths and tinkers. Pastoralists are not trained for anything (nothing to do with basic intelligence) but animal rearing and warfare. They rely on others for manufactures.

    Maybe these iron items were merely imports from somewhere south of the Caucasus.

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