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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    J2a was already found in calcolithic Italy, you might want to check this study: https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(21)00535-2 (supplementaries)
    We have already covered that up in the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The earliest known smelted iron might be from the steppe:

    “One unappreciated aspect of Early Bronze Age and Middle Bronze Age steppe metallurgy was its experimentation with iron. … A Catacomb-period grave at Gerasimovka on the Donets (western Russia/Ukraine), probably dated around 2500 BCE, contained a knife with a handle made of arsenical bronze and a blade made of iron. The iron did not contain magnetite or nickel, as would be expected in meteoric iron, so it is thought to have been forged. Iron objects were rare, but they were part of the experiments conducted by steppe metalsmiths during the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, long before iron began to be used in Hittite Anatolia or the Near East”

    The Horse, the Wheel, and Language : David W. Anthony
    p.336

    If you read the article upthread you will see that finding metal objects is not proof of the practice of metallurgy. What you need is evidence of forges or other paraphernalia. Is there any documentation for that?

    Not that it matters. Once bronze metallurgy became well known, and with the impetus that trade with the tin markets was compromised, experimentation took place in many areas, the Near East, the Aegean, and the Balkans, as the article above points out.

    Doesn't change the well known history of metallurgy. Doesn't change the fact that if you go and read about the grave contents of, for example, the Corded Ware people, it is clear that they were not metallurgists carrying bronze weapons.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    We have already covered that up in the discussion.
    Where have you covered it? Which posts?

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    J2 was found as early as Neolithic central Italy actually, according to the Antonio et al. 2019 paper.

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    ^^They could be modeled as 95% central Anatolian + 5% WHG. I think this also helps support Nick Patterson's paper in which he said Iran-like ancestry has been moving into the Mediterranean region as early as 10,000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    J2 was found as early as Neolithic central Italy actually, according to the Antonio et al. 2019 paper.
    That is actually one of the things I got wrong. I predicted J2a would appear in Europe in the Bronze Age, but Le Brok insisted it was probably there in the Neolithic, and he was right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I did some research and dug deeper into why the Anatolian hypothesis gained so much ground lately. What I found were several very critical articles about the methods of the proponents of the Anatolian theory. My recommendation is, just read, let it sink in, and do what you want with the information. The blog I found is called GeoCurrents. GeoCurrentsis a map-illustrated forum dedicated to global geography, especially as it relates to current events. This website seeks to provide historical background, regional analysis, and political and intellectual context for issues in the news, both major and minor, as long as they have a clear geographic expression. Cultural geography, particularly as expressed in matters of language and religion, is also emphasized. The author made a critical assessment of the reasons why the Anatolian hypothesis is now being favored in academia. I'll post here some of the articles. In my opinion, they're worth reading.


    It's not really the "Anatolian hypothesis". That one stated that IEs all went to Europe through Anatolia.

    This is simply stating that IEs originated in the Middle East, with 1 early branch going to Anatolia and the rest moving through the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Let's pretend I agree with you that this was the case with all of the Greek city states.

    You think the elevation of warfare as the supreme good is to be admired? It's to be admired in their culture even when it's completely hypocritical? In this scenario, the culture believes that the fact that it can, through the use of arms, enslave other people makes them superior, and the vanquished inferior.

    You don't know where that leads? It leads to things like the Lombard laws creating a permanent underclass. The same thing can be seen in the Anglo-Saxon laws about the Britons. Ultimately it leads to Nazi ideology.

    That's an absolutely amoral and disturbing view, imo.
    On the other hand, you don't defeat nazism or tyranny by just saying that it's bad. You need to be willing and able to defeat it by force if necessary.

    In the Greek context, warlike people are free because they want freedom and are willing and able to fight for it, whereas others are either slaves by nature or liable to be enslaved by anyone. Warlike people are courageous whereas others are cowardly.

    -----

    Hippocrates, Airs, Waters, Places:

    “with regard to the pusillanimity and cowardice of the inhabitants, the principal reason the Asiatics are more unwarlike and of gentler disposition than the Europeans is, the nature of the seasons, which do not undergo any great changes either to heat or cold, or the like; for there is neither excitement of the understanding nor any strong change of the body whereby the temper might be ruffled and they be roused to inconsiderate emotion and passion, rather than living as they do always in the state. It is changes of all kinds which arouse understanding of mankind, and do not allow them to get into a torpid condition. For these reasons, it appears to me, the Asiatic race is feeble, and further, owing to their laws; for monarchy prevails in the greater part of Asia, and where men are not their own masters nor independent, but are the slaves of others, it is not a matter of consideration with them how they may acquire military discipline, but how they may seem not to be warlike, for the dangers are not equally shared, since they must serve as soldiers, perhaps endure fatigue, and die for their masters, far from their children, their wives, and other friends; and whatever noble and manly actions they may perform lead only to the aggrandizement of their masters, whilst the fruits which they reap are dangers and death; and, in addition to all this, the lands of such persons must be laid waste by the enemy and want of culture. Thus, then, if any one be naturally warlike and courageous, his disposition will be changed by the institutions. As a strong proof of all this, such Greeks or barbarians in Asia as are not under a despotic form of government, but are independent, and enjoy the fruits of their own labors, are of all others the most warlike; for these encounter dangers on their own account, bear the prizes of their own valor, and in like manner endure the punishment of their own cowardice."

    - Airs, Waters, Places (part 16)

    Aristotle, Politics:

    “there is a rule of another kind, which is exercised over freemen and equals by birth – a constitutional rule, which the ruler must learn by obeying, as he would learn the duties of a general of cavalry by being under the orders of a general of cavalry, or the duties of a general of infantry by being under the orders of a general of infantry, and by having had the command of a regiment and of a company. It has been well said that 'he who has never learned to obey cannot be a good commander.' The two are not the same, but the good citizen ought to be capable of both; he should know how to govern like a freeman, and how to obey like a freeman – these are the virtues of a citizen. … The people who are suited for constitutional freedom are those among whom there naturally exists a warlike multitude able to rule and to obey in turn by a law which gives office to the well-to-do according to their desert.”

    - Politics, Book 3

    "those who cannot face danger like men are the slaves of any invader."

    - Politics, Book 7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    1.) In Lazio and Abruzzo look at the ratio of J2a and R1b. R1b decreases while J2a increases in comparisons with Latins and Etruscans who were overwhelmingly R1b.
    2.) Central Italians are significantly more southern shifted compared to Latins, Etruscans and the upcoming and Samnite samples.
    3.) Historical data and archaeological show the overcrowded cities of Italy being populated with people from East Mediterranean like in Rome and Pompeii.
    As far as I know we just have a leaked PCA showing samnites, from which they seem quite near to the mycenean cluster. I guess it's more likely that the increased frequency in J2 haplogroup is largely due exactly to proto-greeks (Minoan and Myceneans) and Greeks who colonized Italy, rather than the to the poor slaves wich lived in the over crowded city of the Roman Empire, since the Rome and Balkan papers have already shown how the latter population didn't survive to the collapse of the roman urban civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    As far as I know we just have a leaked PCA showing samnites, from which they seem quite near to the mycenean cluster. I guess it's more likely that the increased frequency in J2 haplogroup is largely due exactly to proto-greeks (Minoan and Myceneans) and Greeks who colonized Italy, rather than the to the poor slaves wich lived in the over crowded city of the Roman Empire, since the Rome and Balkan papers have already shown how the latter population didn't survive to the collapse of the roman urban civilization.
    Yes in Southern Italy a large amount of J2a is of Ancient Greek origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    On the other hand, you don't defeat nazism or tyranny by just saying that it's bad. You need to be willing and able to defeat it by force if necessary.

    In the Greek context, warlike people are free because they want freedom and are willing and able to fight for it, whereas others are either slaves by nature or liable to be enslaved by anyone. Warlike people are courageous whereas others are cowardly.

    -----

    Hippocrates, Airs, Waters, Places:

    “with regard to the pusillanimity and cowardice of the inhabitants, the principal reason the Asiatics are more unwarlike and of gentler disposition than the Europeans is, the nature of the seasons, which do not undergo any great changes either to heat or cold, or the like; for there is neither excitement of the understanding nor any strong change of the body whereby the temper might be ruffled and they be roused to inconsiderate emotion and passion, rather than living as they do always in the state. It is changes of all kinds which arouse understanding of mankind, and do not allow them to get into a torpid condition. For these reasons, it appears to me, the Asiatic race is feeble, and further, owing to their laws; for monarchy prevails in the greater part of Asia, and where men are not their own masters nor independent, but are the slaves of others, it is not a matter of consideration with them how they may acquire military discipline, but how they may seem not to be warlike, for the dangers are not equally shared, since they must serve as soldiers, perhaps endure fatigue, and die for their masters, far from their children, their wives, and other friends; and whatever noble and manly actions they may perform lead only to the aggrandizement of their masters, whilst the fruits which they reap are dangers and death; and, in addition to all this, the lands of such persons must be laid waste by the enemy and want of culture. Thus, then, if any one be naturally warlike and courageous, his disposition will be changed by the institutions. As a strong proof of all this, such Greeks or barbarians in Asia as are not under a despotic form of government, but are independent, and enjoy the fruits of their own labors, are of all others the most warlike; for these encounter dangers on their own account, bear the prizes of their own valor, and in like manner endure the punishment of their own cowardice."

    - Airs, Waters, Places (part 16)

    Aristotle, Politics:

    “there is a rule of another kind, which is exercised over freemen and equals by birth – a constitutional rule, which the ruler must learn by obeying, as he would learn the duties of a general of cavalry by being under the orders of a general of cavalry, or the duties of a general of infantry by being under the orders of a general of infantry, and by having had the command of a regiment and of a company. It has been well said that 'he who has never learned to obey cannot be a good commander.' The two are not the same, but the good citizen ought to be capable of both; he should know how to govern like a freeman, and how to obey like a freeman – these are the virtues of a citizen. … The people who are suited for constitutional freedom are those among whom there naturally exists a warlike multitude able to rule and to obey in turn by a law which gives office to the well-to-do according to their desert.”

    - Politics, Book 3

    "those who cannot face danger like men are the slaves of any invader."

    - Politics, Book 7
    That's a complete exaggeration. If you believe that, then I guess you believe all western Europeans, including Northern Europeans who may be 40-50% steppe in ancestry, are by their nature cowards. It was England and France who let the Germans take over the Rhineland, and Czechoslovakia, and Austria. They'd had enough of war and death. It's Finland which has done what it's told by the U.S.S.R.

    England did hold out when there was no other option, but without U.S. aid it would have fallen.

    Then after the second world war, Western Europe was, imo, once again blind and supine before a military power. Was there ever such stupidity as believing that if the west gave up its nuclear weapons all would be well, because then the U.S.S.R. would give up its weapons? Perhaps cowardice played some part in it.

    Yet, as I said, many of these protestors were carrying a lot of steppe ancestry.

    Plus, how can you not see the difference between a war of conquest whose purpose is to enslave other people, and a war of defense?

    Then there's the fact that a lot depends on the force you are opposing. My Celt-Ligurian ancestors, a very warlike people often hired as mercenaries in the ancient world, resisted the Romans ferociously until many of them were re-located far from home in Campania, and the rest had to flee to the hills and mountains. I have wondered often if it was worth it. The Romans weren't like the steppe people, including the Huns, or even like some of the empires in the east. All they cared about was taxation. If you accepted incorporation into the Empire the only real difference was that a portion of your taxes was forwarded to Rome by your elites. You weren't killed or enslaved unless you resisted. You could also keep your own language, customs, religion, and even elites. Even if you were enslaved, you could buy your freedom and build a life for yourself. It wasn't the slavery of the Americas. Was it worth facing annihilation to resist them?

    Compare that to the Nazi Empire. They looted and starved the other European countries and treated them like slaves, particularly the people in the East.

    That's why the Roman Empire lasted for hundreds of years and the Nazis a few decades. Even the U.S.S.R. lasted for less than a century.

    There are lessons one can learn from history if one is objective when reading it.

    If you're so enamored with tribal cultures which are extremely violent and warlike, perhaps you're an admirer of people like the Pashtun. They have a nice, healthy dose of steppe ancestry. As for me, I can think of few fates more horrible than being born into such a society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    As far as I know we just have a leaked PCA showing samnites, from which they seem quite near to the mycenean cluster. I guess it's more likely that the increased frequency in J2 haplogroup is largely due exactly to proto-greeks (Minoan and Myceneans) and Greeks who colonized Italy, rather than the to the poor slaves wich lived in the over crowded city of the Roman Empire, since the Rome and Balkan papers have already shown how the latter population didn't survive to the collapse of the roman urban civilization.
    Samnites, Sabines, Sabellics, Volsci , Lucati and a few others all come from Umbri stock ..............link this PCA please ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Samnites, Sabines, Sabellics, Volsci , Lucati and a few others all come from Umbri stock ..............link this PCA please ?
    It's just the leaked PCA from this upcoming paper. I assume the samples labeled as "Italic" may refer to some kind of oscan tribes, since they come from Campania.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...a-Grecia-paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    It's just the leaked PCA from this upcoming paper. I assume the samples labeled as "Italic" may refer to some kind of oscan tribes, since they come from Campania.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...a-Grecia-paper

    ok

    Is this to do with the Samnite town of Venosa and a previous paper ?

    Italic can refer to anyone in Italy, I doubt it means anything else

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The earliest known smelted iron might be from the steppe:

    “One unappreciated aspect of Early Bronze Age and Middle Bronze Age steppe metallurgy was its experimentation with iron. … A Catacomb-period grave at Gerasimovka on the Donets (western Russia/Ukraine), probably dated around 2500 BCE, contained a knife with a handle made of arsenical bronze and a blade made of iron. The iron did not contain magnetite or nickel, as would be expected in meteoric iron, so it is thought to have been forged. Iron objects were rare, but they were part of the experiments conducted by steppe metalsmiths during the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, long before iron began to be used in Hittite Anatolia or the Near East”

    The Horse, the Wheel, and Language : David W. Anthony
    p.336
    Wow, nice catch about iron in Yamnaya! I wonder if David Anthony knew how close he was about Yamnaya burial kurgans , ancient hunter gatherer pottery, metallurgy, Dom2 horses being located so close?

    https://doaj.org/article/b5f79f9e033...d540c89047c878

    Turganik-- also has Dom2 horses!

    New Data About the Initiate Time of the Pre-Ural (Kargaly) Mining and Metallurgical Center


    The article summarizes the data on the initial stage of metal production in the Southern Urals of the Bronze Age. Lots of Yamnaya culture burial mounds with copper items inside were excavated near the Kargaly deposit in the Orenburg oblast. The variety and originality of tools forms indicate the independent nature of the Ural metallurgy in the early Bronze Age. The authors present new data that allows us to reconstruct the process of metal production at the Repin (early) stage of the Yamnaya culture and explain the beginning of this process by the development of the Kargaly copper ore deposit. Excavations of the Turganik settlement were carried out. Cultural layer 5 of the early Bronze Age is dated to 3800–3360 cal BC. It is characterized by ceramics and other artefacts of the Repin type. Fragments of Kargaly copper ore, slags and copper tools (knife, awls) were found in the layer. The traceological analysis of about approximately 100 items made of stone and animal bones was performed. 41 of them are related to metallurgy and metalworking. They represent tools of all metallurgical production stages, starting from metal extraction from ore to the processing of the finished copper product. Functional groups of products such as ore mortar, ore crushing hammers, casting molds, forging hammers, anvils, edges leveling tools, sharpening stones, and others have been identified. Stone artifacts from the burials were also studied, including ore crushing and forging hammers. No mining tools were found at the settlement. It is concluded that the ore was extracted and processed at the Kargaly deposit, located 70 km to the east, and then delivered to the settlement as an enriched concentrate. The settlement was seasonal. Metallurgical activity here took its place in the summer, since the main type of economic activity was nomadic pastoralism
    Interesting King Tut also had a iron knife and chariot, I wonder what his ydna was?
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    Anyone who knows anything about metallurgy would know that a metal artifact buried in a grave proves absolutely about the development of metallurgy in a culture, whether it's in a grave on the steppe, or in King Tut's tomb. It could have been made anywhere. This is the second time I've had to point out this elementary fact in this thread alone. The one in King Tut's tomb was from meteorite ore; no metallurgy involved.

    Do some of you ever read the material presented by others, or do you just prefer to bury your heads in the sand?

    “This development in general tends to follow a series of steps. These have been well documented inthe Near East by Theodore Wertime, and can be listed as follows:
    1. Simple use of native copper.
    Native copper - almost pure copper as found in nature - occurs fairlywidely in many regions where there are copper ores. In most areas copper may first have been valuedsimply as another attractive mineral or stone - just as meteoric iron was used in the Near East to makecylinder seals, along with a whole range of attractive stones long before its metallic properties wereexploited.
    2. Cold hammering of native copper.
    It would soon be realized that this new mineral did not fractureon hammering so easily as other stones. Shaping by hammering was an obvious way of working.
    3. Annealing of native copper.
    Repeated cold hammering makes the copper brittle so that the objectfractures. By heating it in an open fire, and hammering while hot, this brittleness can be avoided. Coldhammering can then be used to finish the object, and to give harder cutting edges if desired.
    4. Smelting of copper from its ores.
    This represents a notable advance. The ores themselves are often brightly colored, like azurite (blue) and malachite (green). The oxide and carbonate ores are moreeasily reduced than the sulphide ones, and a temperature of about 700°C is needed, which can beattained without the construction of a complicated oven. Only fairly small and irregular pieces can beobtained in this way, however, unless the copper is allowed to run off at a higher temperature.
    5. Casting the copper in an open mould.
    Casting requires heating to the melting point of copper,1,083°C, and allows the production of good thick blanks in roughly the required shape. These canthen be further worked by annealing and cold hammering.
    6. Casting-in, and the use of the two-piece mould.
    More complicated shapes can be obtained by thesemethods. Shaft-holes, for instance, can be produced during casting by inserting a charcoal core in themould. A two-piece mould allows a more elaborate shape than in a one-piece mould where the uppersurface of the casting is always flat.7.
    Alloying with arsenic or tin.
    Arsenic bronze and tin bronze are much stronger than pure copper, sothat the objects are less likely to snap in use. Alloying can also improve the hardness, and also the process of casting, avoiding the formation of blow-holes made by gases dissolved in the melt as theycome out of solution on cooling.
    8. Lost wax casting.
    A wax model is made in the shape of the desired bronze casting, and coated withclay which forms the mould. The wax melts as the molten bronze is poured in to replace it in themould. The mould itself is broken and removed when the bronze cools. In this way, castings of muchmore elaborate shapes can be produced

    In the Near East, stages 1 and 2, and probably 3 as well, were reached very early over a wide area. Many of the earliest Neolithic settlements known, including Ali Kosh in Iran, and Catal Huyuk and Cayonu in Turkey (the last perhaps not even a farming community), have yielded finds of native
    copper. Stage 4 is reportedly documented at Catal Huyuk around 6000 b.c. in radiocarbon years. Stages 5 and 6 come later - the earliest reported instance, not yet documented by metallurgical analysis, is a mace head from Can Hasan in Turkey dated around 5000 b.c. in radiocarbon years. Alloying with tin, stage 7 in this sequence, was a much later development and is seen around3000 BC. (c. 2400 b.c. in radiocarbon years) in the Near East, the Aegean and the Balkans.

    So, whatever was going on at this site in the Urals was Johnny Come Lately.

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    Yamnaya pottery>Elshanka>Amur Basin style. Anybody know how old the pottery samples are from Iran and or Anatolia and is there any evidence of wheeled wagons like the sample with ydna Q ?

    Incredible. Yamnaya-Turganik settlement is proto Dom2 horse, proto-metallurgy and Elshanka pottery is much like Amur river basin pottery, similar in style Hunter Gatherer, but older(14,000 BC+/-).

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...615?via%3Dihub
    AMS 14C age of the earliest pottery from the Russian Far East: 1996–2002 results


    https://experts.arizona.edu/en/publi...russian-far-ea
    https://app.dimensions.ai/details/pu...pub.1021075186
    Abstract

    This article deals with the technologies of pottery-making used by the population of the Volga-Ural region during the Early Neolithic. The analyzed assemblage includes 344 specimens of ceramics (conventionally regarded as separate vessels) from 12 sites of the Elshanka culture (end of the 7th–6th millennium BC). The research method elaborated by A.A. Bobrinsky is based on binocular microscopy, use-wear analysis, and physical modeling. The origins and evolution of the Early Neolithic ceramic traditions in the Volga-Ural region and the role of their admixture are discussed.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    We all know about Nordicists and their nonsense.

    Now we have an Uralist. LOL

    Obviously the Nazis were wrong. The East Europeans were the supermen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    As far as I know we just have a leaked PCA showing samnites, from which they seem quite near to the mycenean cluster. I guess it's more likely that the increased frequency in J2 haplogroup is largely due exactly to proto-greeks (Minoan and Myceneans) and Greeks who colonized Italy, rather than the to the poor slaves wich lived in the over crowded city of the Roman Empire, since the Rome and Balkan papers have already shown how the latter population didn't survive to the collapse of the roman urban civilization.
    It's very easy to go on Yfull and see the J2a phylogeny. Some Italian samples do plausibly have a neolithic, chalcolithic, or Aegean BA/IA origin, but others clearly don't:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8078/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC32147/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S10543/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z32111/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S18910/

    As for the "urban extinction hypothesis", prepare to be disappointed in the coming years. After Krause seems like Reich's also made up his mind, based on the recent Erfurt Jews paper. The rest will soon follow.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.13.491805v1
    Supplemental information (section "2.1. Interpretation of the inferred genetic ancestry"):

    "All the evidence currently available indicates that during the Roman and early Medieval periods Jews
    were highly integrated in Southern Italy. There is historical evidence that there was at least some gene
    flow between Jews and non-Jews in Southern Italy, because, in the late Roman and early Medieval
    periods, imperial and ecclesiastical authorities tried to prevent the practice of intermarriage between
    Jews and Christians, as well as the phenomenon of conversion of non-Jews to Judaism. When, in due
    course, highly accomplished and connected Jews from Southern Italy started moving north, they were
    joined by others from central and northern Italy. For example, the Kalonymus family—a Jewish family
    from Rome, but with roots in Southern Italy—is known to have had major impact on AJ intellectual
    life in 10th-century Mainz and Speyer [87, 108]. This was the multilayered migratory legacy that may
    be reflected in the Southern European genetic ancestry we observed in our models for the genomes
    of Erfurt Jews.


    Our qpAdm models with a South-Italian source suggested that only a small proportion of EAJ ancestry
    derived from Middle Eastern populations. This may be interpreted to imply that present-day AJ derive
    only a small proportion of their ancestry from ancient Judaeans; and if so, most AJ ancestry would
    owe its origin to European converts. While this is one possible explanation, modern Italians
    themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial
    Roman times [47] and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy [109]."

    P.S: the Samnites will not be close to the Mycenaean cluster

  20. #570
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    It's very easy to go on Yfull and see the J2a phylogeny. Some Italian samples do plausibly have a neolithic, chalcolithic, or Aegean BA/IA origin, but others clearly don't:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8078/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC32147/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S10543/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z32111/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S18910/

    As for the "urban extinction hypothesis", prepare to be disappointed in the coming years. After Krause seems like Reich's also made up his mind, based on the recent Erfurt Jews paper. The rest will soon follow.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.13.491805v1
    Supplemental information (section "2.1. Interpretation of the inferred genetic ancestry"):

    "All the evidence currently available indicates that during the Roman and early Medieval periods Jews
    were highly integrated in Southern Italy. There is historical evidence that there was at least some gene
    flow between Jews and non-Jews in Southern Italy, because, in the late Roman and early Medieval
    periods, imperial and ecclesiastical authorities tried to prevent the practice of intermarriage between
    Jews and Christians, as well as the phenomenon of conversion of non-Jews to Judaism. When, in due
    course, highly accomplished and connected Jews from Southern Italy started moving north, they were
    joined by others from central and northern Italy. For example, the Kalonymus family—a Jewish family
    from Rome, but with roots in Southern Italy—is known to have had major impact on AJ intellectual
    life in 10th-century Mainz and Speyer [87, 108]. This was the multilayered migratory legacy that may
    be reflected in the Southern European genetic ancestry we observed in our models for the genomes
    of Erfurt Jews.


    Our qpAdm models with a South-Italian source suggested that only a small proportion of EAJ ancestry
    derived from Middle Eastern populations. This may be interpreted to imply that present-day AJ derive
    only a small proportion of their ancestry from ancient Judaeans; and if so, most AJ ancestry would
    owe its origin to European converts. While this is one possible explanation, modern Italians
    themselves have had much higher proportions of ME admixture since at least European Imperial
    Roman times [47] and this is especially the case in modern Southern Italy [109]."

    P.S: the Samnites will not be close to the Mycenaean cluster
    The paper in question seems to point to the conclusions that Askenazhi Jew have Italian ancestry and not the other way around: after all they were a minority wich couldn't possibly change the genetic landscape of a densely populated area, while they could certainly receive external contributions. Anyway, the hypothesis that european Jews might have derived their ME admixtre from southern Italians rather than from their ME ancestors apparently sounds quite strange to the authors themselves and infact it's presented just as a secondary and subordinate hypothesis.

    As per Samintes (or other oscan-southern italian italic tribes) I guess they could sit in between Latins and Mycaeneans.

    Anyway, I fear we are moving away from the subject of the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post

    As per Samintes (or other oscan-southern italian italic tribes) I guess they could sit in between Latins and Mycaeneans.
    Italic tribes are easy to differentiate from Mycenaeans because they have western hunter-gatherer admixture (which the Mycenaeans lack) and no significant amount of CHG or Iran_N ancestry.

  22. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    It's very easy to go on Yfull and see the J2a phylogeny. Some Italian samples do plausibly have a neolithic, chalcolithic, or Aegean BA/IA origin, but others clearly don't:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8078/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC32147/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S10543/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z32111/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S18910/
    I agree and kind of also disagree with your comment here. They will most likely, similar to the Balkans, be split between a majority Bronze Age/Iron Age and minority of Neolithic, Chalcolithic origin.

    Also, I find it problematic to affiliate rather rare haplogroups with not many descendants such as J-PF7421 to the sort of migration you are going for here (Near Eastern I guess?) when you have a parallel branch under J-PF5177 which is J-PF5252 to be more exact and is attested in Italy since the Bronze Age.

    The examples you give seem like cherry picking to me.

  23. #573
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I agree and kind of also disagree with your comment here. They will most likely, similar to the Balkans, be split between a majority Bronze Age/Iron Age and minority of Neolithic, Chalcolithic origin.
    That's my guess as well: as you have a cline in late bronze blakans, going from southern european beaker - like populations in Croatia to Myceneans - like people in South, I think you could find the same pattern - at least to some extent - between italic tribes too, due to the fact that the most southern regions of the italian peninsula were already more CHG admixed.

  24. #574
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    The paper in question seems to point to the conclusions that Askenazhi Jew have Italian ancestry and not the other way around: after all they were a minority wich couldn't possibly change the genetic landscape of a densely populated area, while they could certainly receive external contributions. Anyway, the hypothesis that european Jews might have derived their ME admixtre from southern Italians rather than from their ME ancestors apparently sounds quite strange to the authors themselves and infact it's presented just as a secondary and subordinate hypothesis.

    As per Samintes (or other oscan-southern italian italic tribes) I guess they could sit in between Latins and Mycaeneans.

    Anyway, I fear we are moving away from the subject of the thread.
    Glad you mentioned that, because the Giudecca do seem like very tiny areas within the cities they're in. Here's an example of Claustro Giudecca in Altamura.

    A tiny walled community within a larger urban back-drop. How many crypto-Jews could have possibly come from here? I'm guessing not very much, and these ghetto can be found not just in Italy, but all over Europe. In fact a lot of the Jews who fled Italy actually took refuge in Greece, and the Islands.



    The tiny red blob near Via Dei Millie



    Zoomed out view of the whole city.

    The "Urban extinction hypothesis" didn't just happen climactically at the fall of Rome. It was a process:

    In 1492, after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, many Spanish and Portuguese Jews settled in Apulia. This led to a small revival of Jewish life in the area. Isaac Abrabanel lived in Apulia at this time after leaving Spain. However, the revival was short lived. In 1495, the Kingdom of Naples fell to the French and King Charles VIII ordered more restrictions to be placed on the Jews of Apulia. Also in 1495, the Jews Lecce were massacred and the Jewish quarter was burned to the ground.[2] Lecce was the birthplace of Abraham de Balmes a noted Hebrew expert. One Balmes' pupils was Daniel Bomberg.
    Among the privileges granted the city council of Martina Franca (Taranto) in 1495, King Frederick of Aragon forbade Crypto-Jews and Neofiti to press charges against those who robbed them (probably during the riots of 1494–1495 during the French invasion of the Kingdom of Naples) and prohibited their coming to live in that city. Also in 1495, the Jews of Martina Franca were massacred.
    When Apulia fell to the Spanish in 1510, the beginning of the end was in sight for the Apulian Jews. The Spanish Inquisition reached Apulia because of the large number of Jews, Crypto-Jews and Neofiti living in the area. A series of expulsions started 1511. Most Jews and Neofiti were expelled and or tortured to death. Most Jewish property was seized and all remaining Synogoues were rededicated as Catholic Churches.
    By 1540, the last expulsion finally ended Jewish life in Apulia. Most remaining Crypto-Jews were driven so deep underground that their presence finally came to an end as well. Some of the Apulian Jewish refugees fled north. However, most of them settled in Greece or the Aegean islands. The Apulian Jews set up new congregations in Corfu, Arta and Salonika. The last remnants of the Apulian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust.[3] [4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ir%20expulsion.
    As for Samnites, I cannot say with confidence what they are going to be like, but it will be interesting nonetheless. But it is clear to me that the South owes much of it's ancestry to pre-Italic people (i.e. Minoan/Greece_N-like)

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    Erfurt Jews using the K8 aITA model:



    To me it is clear they are mostly some kind of Southern European with a smaller but significant Near Eastern (Ancient Levantine) admixture.

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