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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

  1. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I imagined it, but the orientalizing period it's not linked to the Fertile Crescent, it's just an aegean influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    I imagined it, but the orientalizing period it's not linked to the Fertile Crescent, it's just an aegean influence.
    The roots of orientalising are clearly in some way in the Fertile Crescent, I don't think there is much doubt about this, further east than the Aegean area, the Aegean area being the first area to adopt orientalising before it arrived in the central and western Mediterranean.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    There are actually huge similarities between them, for example look at this book:

    What you see on the cover of this book is a golden Celtic torc which has been found in Gilan and dates back to the second millennium BC (Bronze age).
    That would line up with the L23+ group discussed in this paper that links NW Iran and Armenia to the steppes, L51+ would have sprung from a similar group westwards. A few individual keep trying to split up M269's descendants as if they are very distantly related, this is not the case at all. We're not comparing V88 and PH155 who are separated by thousands of years, but Z2103 and L51+ spring from someone who was only separated by a few centuries and was unlikely to have been geographically very distant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    - Sintashata contacted that area, however, it is a problem to connect sintashta culture to ancient celts:

    "The Sintashta fortified settlements (Arkaim and Sintashta) have round walls and moats [8; 9]. The housesare blocked together. Direct analogies with them are known only in Anatolia (Demirchiuyuk, Pulur, Mercin),Syro-Palestine (Rogem Hiri) and the Transcaucasus (Uzerlic-Tepe) [10 – 13]. Sintashta burial traditions areidentical to ones in this region too. Other artefacts (metal, ceramics etc.) have parallels there [14]"

    - South caucasus culture reached china bronze where torharian language, celtic symbol and sintashta culture were found. However, seima turbino and karashuk people went down there:

    "This horse-drawn chariot is ·a technically sophisticated. artifact requiring special skills and resources for its construction, use, and maintenance. Two specific features of Anyang chariots are the large number of wheel spokes (from eighteen to twenty-six. as compared with four, six, or eight in the Near East) and the mounting of the axle not at the rear edge of the box, but midway between front and back. In western Asia both features are known only from mid second-millennium chariots buried at Lchashen in the Caucasus, and for the moment these are the closest relatives of Anyang chariots, indicating a strong influence from those areas.

    - So is there any possibility for scythian to bring the ancient iran culture to ancient celtic people?

    "One main line of enquiry is the relationship between the central European Celts and their nomadic Eurasian neighbours (often referred to as Scythians or Sarmatians), who inhabited the European end of a grassland (steppe) corridor that stretched east towards Central Asia and China. Longstanding routes of communication across these semi-deserts and steppes, which later formed part of the Silk Road, are known to have played a significant role in earlier artistic and cultural exchanges between East and West."
    Gilan is a long way from the heart of Sintashta culture, just take a look at a map. Unless the torc is misattributed to ancient cultures of Gilan, I have no idea. Definitely this region is one of the ones where R1b peaks in Iran, N-NW region in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    It does not entail the newest samples in regards to e. g. J1-CTS1026, like the one from Khvalynsk and others Angela was referring to. Apart from that the nomenclatures in that map are very vague and made by an amateur person, clearly. If one might be interested in certain haplogroups and their aDNA coverage there are plenty of groups on e.g. FTDNA where there are also haplogroup researchers and provide those who are interested in specifics with the correct data. There are also public data bases which portray maps and the location of certain aDNA samples, though not often updated and sometimes also incomplete.
    Never did I claim that map was the holy Bible or revealed Truth. As Angela explained It is only a first support tool to identify ancient Js and subclades of J scattered across the Eurasian continent, including the steppes.
    I point out that by clicking on each sample, a cross-reference to the scientific publication in which it is mentioned appears (many of them with a link). You are free to check them one by one for errors, inaccuracies or omissions.
    I will not go into their nomenclature, which is now updated with every breath we take: on the contrary, if anyone wants to update the whole tool, putting it in place or wants to propose a more precise and functional one, he is welcome to do so.


    We are all here to learn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    Protovillanovan and Villanovan cultures, from wich both Etruscan and Latins facies are derived, are a direct emanation of the urnfield culture. I'm not aware of direct "fertile crescent" influence nor in Etruscans, nor in Greeks, at least not at the start of the Iron age.
    Central Italian Iron Age samples cluster relatively close to those who lived there 1000 years earlier. There is no shift, ethnically speaking, to Central Europe although there are Celtic outliers among the Etruscans.

    Dodecad K12b PCA

    Code:
    ITA_Central_IA,2.2925926,0.21037037,1.6964815,0.34777778,46.316111,24.35,0.1912963,0.12518519,5.1264815,0.21962963,18.739074,0.38592593
    ITA_Central_MBA,2.2266667,0.33833333,1.1583333,0.665,48.94,26.398333,0,0,4.82,0.068333333,14.985,0.39833333

  7. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'm a descendant of the so-called "Barbarians"


    So am I, RE, whether you mean the steppe people or the Celts and Germanics, just as you are a descendant of the civilized core people of "Old Europe". No offense is intended, but I notice a "forgetfulness" in some northern Europeans that many of them, especially in northwestern and Central Europe, are 40-50% Anatolian Neolithic like through admixture by the steppe people with people of the "civilized core" in "Old Europe". Even the Balts have a significant amount of Anatolian Neo. Then there's the Iran Neo like ancestry in steppe people, varying by area, of course. We're all a mash up of the same groups, RE, just in different proportions.

    However, being the civilized core doesn't always translate into being more humane, peaceful, and less violent or cruel.


    Not necessarily, yes.


    It would be a very narrow approach to see only the predators in the "Barbarians" and not also in the "civilized ones". In that regard, it must be pointed out that Roman expansionism was predatory to its core. The Roman Empire was predatory in nature, meaning that it believed in military-based practices and growth. In addition, like many empires in the ancient world, was, at least partially, a system of the predatory type, with an economy widely based on slave labor.

    Of course, living under the Romans was way better than living under the Hun, Mongol, Assyrian, or Aztec rule. Nonetheless, the Romans viewed and prided themselves on being Apex predators so to speak: It's for a reason that in Rome several icons such as the Eagle, Wolf, Bear, Minotaur, and later Lion were carried as the symbols of Roman Legions.
    Well, I'm glad you agree there are empires and then there are empires. They might all be equally "bad" in that they accrue other lands by force if necessary, but there are differences among them.

    As was pointed out by a later post, Rome initially fought defensive wars, but yes, it eventually became an empire seeking expansion, an expansion that was sometimes to protect its trade routes(Etruria and Greece), or for grain (Egypt), and other raw materials, for a very simplistic summary of its wars. Then it became about reaching defensible borders. In the case of my own Liguria, Rome already had absorbed part of southern France, but the Ligures had proved so obstreperous that they had to use the sea routes. The campaign against them was to gain a land route to Gaul. Better for the Ligures if they had just become allies of Rome. Better for Rome, too. What states wants to waste its soldiers in a needless war.

    Furthermore one of the defining symbols of ancient Rome is a remarkable piece of animal folklore. The image of it is still to be seen everywhere in Rome: The twins Romulus and Remus crouching beneath a she-wolf and suckling her milk. Mythology is a way of understanding the world. It is not always right in all aspects.
    The stories people tell about themselves are most revealing. The parts of folklore which appeal to us are deeply revealing. For the Romans wolves played a vital part in their myths, about the world and about themselves.

    For the Romans what did they see when they looked at the babies and the she-wolf? The sons of a warlike god and a mortal imbibing animal strength from their adopted mother. Their descendents, those who looked on the statue, would know that they had the best of all worlds – human wit, animal power, and that divine spark which would give them Imperium sine fine – An Empire without end!
    As someone pointed out, that's actually an Etruscan symbol.

    I do, btw, agree that mythology says a lot about a culture. In that regard, what do the sculptures of the Neolithic world tell us about their mythology and their view of the world? To the best of my recollection most of them were symbols of fertility, a "mother goddess" spent and misshapen through giving fertility to people and to the natural world. There was also a great emphasis on cattle, with cattle heads decorating their homes, tied to, it would seem, the domestication of animals, to food. There were male gods too, but again also based on fertility, whose symbol was a phallus. Then we have storm gods who brought the rain, and eventually war gods too.

    So, I by no means believe that "Old Europe", for example, was a peaceful paradise, a la Gimbutas. We have evidence of warfare which occurred in times of scarcity, for example, which makes sense given the nature of all human beings.

    However, can you deny that the balance in favor of a mythology of war and conquest is higher in steppe culture? Don't some in the amateur pop gen community admire the steppe people specifically because they were a war-like people who claimed to be superior to other groups and therefore entitled to conquer them, slaughter those who needed to be slaughtered, enslave the rest, and take all the women for themselves?

    If the Etruscans and the Latins, both a mixture of people from local Neolithic farming communities and groups from Central Europe who were themselves of European farmer stock but admixed with steppe people, had a mythology glorifying conquest, isn't it more likely it came by way of the steppe than from the Neolithic farmers of Europe?

    In that regard, the Etruscans were warlike as well. A certain period of the Classical Era could be described as a time of conflict between three powers for the control of the Mediterranean: Etruria, Greece, and Rome. Later, it was the Greek kingdom of Egypt and Rome.

    I spent a good part of my life having to decide matters in a black and white manner: guilty or innocent. I learned that reality isn't always that simple. We have to pretend it is in legal systems, because there must be punishment for harm to others, removal of predators from society, but the reality is so much more complex.

    The same is true for history. When looking at certain periods, states in conflict, it's often not a question of black and white, good versus evil, but shades of grey. Look at World War I. I studied it in great depth at university and after, and it was a senseless war where there were "only" shades of grey

    I also think it's undeniable that as empires go, Rome was a pretty good one, and not just because of the Monty Python list of the advancements it brought to conquered peoples. :)

    Despite your implication that Rome too was "racist" or, shall we make up a word and call it "ethnicist", that isn't true in any way that affected the real lives of the people in the Roman world. If you accepted the conquest and paid your taxes, usually to your old headman, your people weren't slaughtered, and even if you resisted, everybody wasn't enslaved, all the women weren't taken for the Latin-Romans etc. Everything went on as before. With time, non-Latins or Italics of any kind could acquire property, honors, eventually become accepted into the Equestrian Order, become Senators, or go the military route, enlist, and eventually become generals and even Emperors. With time, anyone living in the Empire became a Roman citizen and could aspire to any office.

    It's called Romanization. There are dozens of books about it and goodness knows how many papers. You should read about it.

    For now, for the sake of argument, take my word for it. What empire of the ancient world, before or after, was comparable?

    Yes, slavery is one of the absolute evils imo, but tell me which state or kingdom or group of people DIDN'T practice it in the ancient world? Did the Gauls whom the Romans conquered not practice slavery and fight wars for land or booty? Why else did they fight the Etruscans in north-central Italy and sack the city of Rome itself? What about the Britons or the Germani? What, as a matter of fact, about the Lombards and what they did to the "Romans" they conquered, or the Anglo-Saxons and the way they treated the Britons, or the Vikings? Wasn't most of the wealth of the latter from the slave trade they ran all over Europe? The Lombard and AS Laws make very interesting reading.

    It always amazes me when Northern Europeans bemoan the slavery of the Roman Empire without ever mentioning any of that. Slavery was, unfortunately, the NORM in the ancient world. At least under the Romans you could escape it through manumission or buying your freedom, and rising as high in society as your abilities would dictate.

    Also, when the Germanic tribes took down Rome, and with it all its advancements, setting civilization back for hundreds of years, they slaughtered people too, because they were fleeing the Huns and needed land and food. To get those things they slaughtered the people inside the core, and also, unfortunately, burned and looted and pulled down most of the public buildings, and left the rest and the roads to crumble into ruin. They also created a permanent underclass, codified under law, a status from which they could not escape. Whole swaths of Europe remained basically kingdoms of serfs tied to the land ruled over by a small illiterate and ignorant elite.

    That's the grand synthesis which came about as a result of the Barbarian invasions?

    I'm sorry, but I think it is "your" view of the past, and that of those who post similar opinions, which is romanticized and doesn't comport with the facts of the situation.

    My God, the Nazi Empire of what, eighty to ninety years ago, slaughtered millions of people in a war of conquest, not just to get territories which contained German minorities but for "lebensraum", land to breathe, or land needed for natural development, and not just Jews and gypsies and the infirm or deficient, but many Eastern Europeans. In Poland they decimated most of their elites and officer corps, and subjected the rest to virtual slavery. The plan was to completely exterminate all Slavic peoples. In my own Italy, my great uncle had to carve caves in the grape terraces to hide young boys and men, because after 1943 when Italy surrendered, it became occupied territory, and any able bodied men were sent to work as slaves on German farms and in German factories. The same thing happened in France to a lesser extent because of Vichy. As for the Italian military, they were surrounded and forced to give up their weapons, and many were executed as "traitors", as happened in Greece, for example, unless they swore to follow the new kingdom of Salo under Mussolini. Some of them, in the King's service, not Fascist regiments, wouldn't do that, or if they did, later escaped and also had to be hidden. How does "that" compare to the Roman Empire, RE? Don't they teach any of this in German schools?

    That doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that I would want to have lived in ancient Rome, even as a free male of the elites. There was too much danger from diseases we have now conquered, if nothing else, and even upper middle class people today live more comfortable lives than the elites of the time. Forget the Dark and Middle Ages which the invasions brought about; life was barely worth living in those periods.

    Civilization and Advancement came along with lots of suffering and sacrifices. Think of all the millions of slaves who under inhumane conditions worked in mines, in agriculture, or who were forced to build all these impressive huge monuments and buildings. The blood, sweat, and tears of past generations throughout Europe are what gave us the advanced Western societies we enjoy today.
    I would say that civilization and advancement came, in most cases, despite the blood and tears shed in endless wars. Conquests don't always bring civilization with them. Sometimes the conquest just destroys civilization, and from the rubble people have to start and build it up again. That's what happened with the invasions which brought down Rome, and the confluence of events including the warfare brought by people from the Italic peninsula which brought down Bronze Age Greece.
    Last edited by Angela; 06-08-22 at 19:19.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Central Italian Iron Age samples cluster relatively close to those who lived there 1000 years earlier. There is no shift, ethnically speaking, to Central Europe although there are Celtic outliers among the Etruscans.

    Dodecad K12b PCA

    Code:
    ITA_Central_IA,2.2925926,0.21037037,1.6964815,0.34777778,46.316111,24.35,0.1912963,0.12518519,5.1264815,0.21962963,18.739074,0.38592593
    ITA_Central_MBA,2.2266667,0.33833333,1.1583333,0.665,48.94,26.398333,0,0,4.82,0.068333333,14.985,0.39833333
    Now the Latins and Etruscans don't have steppe ancestry?

    Did you come to this site only to t-roll and spread disinformation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I see what you’re saying. That said, the Romans were quite a bit like the Steppe people, since they were aggressive expansionists and imperialists that glorified war and conquest. I say that without being disparaging but to set the record straight. According to another origin myth Rea, a Silvia fell pregnant and gave birth to twin boys, Romulus and Remus. When asked who the father was she claimed it was the god Mars. Mars was the Roman god of war and second only to Jupiter in the Roman pantheon. He was said to love violence and conflict. His persona represented military power and the noise and blood of battle. Since he was the father of Romulus and Remus it was believed he would come to the aid of Rome during times of conflict or war. So, the Ancient Romans considered themselves the sons of Mars the God of war.


    Here's the thing, the Romans cared a lot about glory and honor too, and thus not only about taxation. That's why Julius Caesar planned to invade the Parthian Empire. And generals like Marcus Crassus, Marcus Antonius, and several Emperors tried to invade Persia. All for the sole purpose of prestige, and glory, and imitating Alexander the Great, who himself imitated the Greatest Greek warrior, Achilles. Besides, why do you think the Romans conquered Britain? Because Emperor Claudius needed a military victory, a successful conquest, to be a legitimate and respected ruler.

    The truth of the matter is, that the Romans themselves were a warrior society, prone to war and brutality. Surely, they were not like the Huns or Mongols because they brought some advancement and sophistication with them. Plus, the Romans followed a carrot and stick approach in order to keep the Pax Romana and make their Empire last.





    How about the Romans being nice like the Etruscans by staying in their city-state, instead marching with their army to other people's countries to bully them into submission?

    The point is that the Romans thought they were born to conquer and rule others. And thus, if people dared to defend their country against being invaded by them, they were crushed and enslaved.

    Tacitus, a critique of Roman imperialism describes in his work this mindset behind the Roman Empire.




    Tacitus, The Agricola and The Germania



    Sorry, Angela but I have to be honest here and say, that you have a somewhat romantic view of the Romans. The Romans unlike the Etruscans resembled the "Steppe folks" in how they operated in the world. Plus, it appears as if you're really disgusted by Steppe people and their legacy. Anyway Language transmits culture because language is the generative force that creates culture. That explains why the Indo-European-speaking Romans/Latins were more warlike than the Etruscans who weren't Indo-European speakers.
    Latin--fascis ---Latins R1b L51 and Z2103
    Italian: fascio littorio) is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe (occasionally two axes) with its blade emergingEtymology[edit]

    From Proto-Indo-European *bʰask- (“bundle, band”), see also Proto-Celtic *baskis (“bundle, load”), Ancient Greek φάκελος (phákelos, “bundle”), Albanian bashkë (“together”), Old English bæst (“inner bark of the linden tree”), Welsh baich (“load, burden”), Middle Irish basc (“neckband”).




    Steppe Stele
    Kernosovskiy idol

    Kurgan stele dating from the mid–3rd millennium BC. It was discovered in 1973 in the village of Kernosivka [uk], in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, Ukraine. It is held in the collection of the Dmytro Yavornytsky National Historical Museum of Dnipro.



    All four sides of the figure are covered with numerous drawings, sculpted in low relief. One interpretation of the artwork on the back of the figure is that it depicts a tree of life. Regular circles and squares above the ribs, symbolise the sun and the moon. These images testify to the ritual, sacred purpose of the stele. Other illustrations include: weaponry - a bow and arrow and a mace; tools - axes, a hoe, a crucible; animals - a bull, two horse and turtles; on one side a man and a woman are
    Suum cuique---Rubiconem suum


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Silesian and real expert

    Give it a rest.

    The Latins and Etruscans were both far more EEF than Steppe genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now the Latins and Etruscans don't have steppe ancestry?
    From this message, where exactly do you draw the conclusion that they don't have Steppe ancestry?

    Central Italian Iron Age samples cluster relatively close to those who lived there 1000 years earlier. There is no shift, ethnically speaking, to Central Europe although there are Celtic outliers among the Etruscans.
    Both ITA_Central_MBA and ITA_Central_IA were Steppe-admixed, just look at their intermediate position between Sardinia and Central Europe in the PCA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Did you come to this site only to t-roll and spread disinformation?
    How come all this butthurtness?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Latin--fascis ---Latins R1b L51 and Z2103
    Italian: fascio littorio) is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe (occasionally two axes) with its blade emergingEtymology[edit]

    From Proto-Indo-European *bʰask- (“bundle, band”), see also Proto-Celtic *baskis (“bundle, load”), Ancient Greek φάκελος (phákelos, “bundle”), Albanian bashkë (“together”), Old English bæst (“inner bark of the linden tree”), Welsh baich (“load, burden”), Middle Irish basc (“neckband”).




    Steppe Stele
    Kernosovskiy idol







    Silesian, I don't understand what point you want to make, but it is very well known that the Fasces is Etruscan and the Romans borrows it from the Etruscans.

    "The symbol of the fasces originated with the Etruscans, the earliest being found an iron set in an Etruscan tomb of the 7th century BC at Vetulonia."



    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1983-1229-1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    From this message, where exactly do you draw the conclusion that they don't have Steppe ancestry?



    Both ITA_Central_MBA and ITA_Central_IA were Steppe-admixed, just look at their intermediate position between Sardinia and Central Europe in the PCA.



    How come all this butthurtness?
    If I misunderstood your meaning in this particular case, my apologies. I posted too hastily, not thinking the matter through. However, this isn't twitter, and we're not using texts; a few sentences explaining one's meaning clearly wouldn't go amiss, especially when there's no apparent relation of the post to the current conversation.

    Also, try to express yourself without the coarse language of some younger males. Next time you use inappropriate language you'll get an infraction for it. You're not talking in a bar or club or in someone's home with your male friends. It also isn't eurogenes.

    Think of it as an intellectual salon of the French type. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Latin--fascis ---Latins R1b L51 and Z2103
    Italian: fascio littorio) is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe (occasionally two axes) with its blade emergingEtymology[edit]

    From Proto-Indo-European *bʰask- (“bundle, band”), see also Proto-Celtic *baskis (“bundle, load”), Ancient Greek φάκελος (phákelos, “bundle”), Albanian bashkë (“together”), Old English bæst (“inner bark of the linden tree”), Welsh baich (“load, burden”), Middle Irish basc (“neckband”).




    Steppe Stele
    Kernosovskiy idol





    Good grief, Silesian, what does Abraham Lincoln have to do with any of this?

    Be careful now, he's one of my absolute heroes! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The roots of orientalising are clearly in some way in the Fertile Crescent, I don't think there is much doubt about this, further east than the Aegean area, the Aegean area being the first area to adopt orientalising before it arrived in the central and western Mediterranean.







    I always thought the origin of the orientalizing style was the Aegean. My bad, thanks for clarifying that.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, it does show that there was ancient J1 and J2 on the steppe, and I'm grateful to Stuvane for providing it.

    However, if you have a link or file with a complete list of all such samples further refined, could you provide it? That would be very helpful. Thanks in advance for looking for it if it exists.
    I understand that, just wanted to point out that there are some further samples missing and that the nomenclatures are rather vague. This site might be helpful to you https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map...#4/46.10/15.03

    Just put in the nomenclature of a haplogroup whose aDNA coverage you want to see and it gives you a list of samples with the linked papers. Dislaimer: it does have some errors in portraying the map properly not sure if it has just been the case when using my devices and might be totally okay for others. Nonetheless you'll get a list on the side with the info you are looking for (id of samples, haplogroups, archeological data, links to studies etc.). It is also fairly often updated.

    In regards to „J2“ or „J1“ on the steppe: we have also known for quite a while now of rumored due to be published Chalcolithic J2b-L283 (J2b2a1) samples from the Western steppe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    Never did I claim that map was the holy Bible or revealed Truth. As Angela explained It is only a first support tool to identify ancient Js and subclades of J scattered across the Eurasian continent, including the steppes.
    I point out that by clicking on each sample, a cross-reference to the scientific publication in which it is mentioned appears (many of them with a link). You are free to check them one by one for errors, inaccuracies or omissions.
    I will not go into their nomenclature, which is now updated with every breath we take: on the contrary, if anyone wants to update the whole tool, putting it in place or wants to propose a more precise and functional one, he is welcome to do so.


    We are all here to learn
    Nor did I intend to accuse you of doing that. I have made my intention clear in my response to Angela above. Agreed. I am here to learn too

    I once had links to really good J2a-L70 and J2a-M67 aDNA interactive maps but seem to have not saved them. I think I picked them up at this website: https://j2-m172.info/ Since you're J2 this could interest you (in case you didn't already know). There are volunteer scientists from the genetics field over there and admins of FTDNA groups too. It is a great source, IMO.

    Also, a great up to date map of aDNA coverage of J2b-L283 (J2b2a1) in case you are interested. (Courtesy of Veseli)

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4999999966&z=5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Silesian, I don't understand what point you want to make, but it is very well known that the Fasces is Etruscan and the Romans borrows it from the Etruscans.

    "The symbol of the fasces originated with the Etruscans, the earliest being found an iron set in an Etruscan tomb of the 7th century BC at Vetulonia."



    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1983-1229-1
    Sorry not interested in Etruscans, unless they used an axe in hand to hand challenges for dominance and or combat like the R1b steppe ancestors of the Latins. As far as iron use, unless it is older than Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Catacombe(proto Latins-) R1b-Z2103/L51+ steppe not interested, sorry.


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    I’m super interested in the Steppe admixture of Classical Greeks particularly Laconians.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Sorry not interested in Etruscans, unless they used an axe in hand to hand challenges for dominance and or combat like the R1b steppe ancestors of the Latins. As far as iron use, unless it is older than Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Catacombe(proto Latins-) R1b-Z2103/L51+ steppe not interested, sorry.



    In my opinion, these are topics that deserve reasoning ability and a minimum of effort and knowledge. Your answer is meaningless. What answer would be "I am not interested"? You brought up the example of Fasces. Just saying, even the Etruscans were predominantly R1b. The fact remains that the Latins/Romans borrowed Fasces from the Etruscans, whether you are interested or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    In my opinion, these are topics that deserve reasoning ability and a minimum of effort and knowledge. Your answer is meaningless. Just saying, even the Etruscans were predominantly R1b. The fact remains that the Latins/Romans borrowed fasces from the Etruscans, whether you are interested or not.
    . A long time ago (10years)I used to debate the origins of R1b with someone who contributed to the Grugni et al paper2012. He was very adamant that R1b was from the location around the Near East similar to what some of the poster's are posting. He made really good images of frequency rates-R1b-Z2103 in Sicily and Southern Italy and connected it with the Near East. Last I heard he took up a new hobby, something like gardening. Sometimes our understanding changes. Trying to extrapolate R1b from the Near East is nothing new. The difference this time around is how it relates to PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    . A long time ago (10years)I used to debate the origins of R1b with someone who contributed to the Grugni et al paper2012. He was very adamant that R1b was from the location around the Near East similar to what some of the poster's are posting. He made really good images of frequency rates-R1b-Z2103 in Sicily and Southern Italy and connected it with the Near East. Last I heard he took up a new hobby, something like gardening. Sometimes our understanding changes. Trying to extrapolate R1b from the Near East is nothing new. The difference this time around is how it relates to PIE.
    Grugni et al 2012 do you mean this? I don't hold the Italian geneticists involved in that study in high esteem, so I have no trouble thinking they were wrong.

    Grugni, V., Battaglia, V., Hooshiar Kashani, B., Parolo, S., Al-Zahery, N., Achilli, A., Olivieri, A., Gandini, F., Houshmand, M., Sanati, M. H., Torroni, A., & Semino, O. (2012). Ancient migratory events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-chromosome variation of modern Iranians. PLoS One, 7(7), 1-14. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Grugni et al 2012 do you mean this? I don't hold the Italian geneticists involved in that study in high esteem, so I have no trouble thinking they were wrong.
    Grugni, V., Battaglia, V., Hooshiar Kashani, B., Parolo, S., Al-Zahery, N., Achilli, A., Olivieri, A., Gandini, F., Houshmand, M., Sanati, M. H., Torroni, A., & Semino, O. (2012). Ancient migratory events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-chromosome variation of modern Iranians. PLoS One, 7(7), 1-14. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
    No I made a mistake, that was the study with Lurs sampling. It was a Meyers et al study showing L23. Those were the good ol'day's. It's when I met a poster on another forum who was from the Samara region in Russia with R1b-L277+. One Polish blogger with a horse riding Connan like personality would debate R1b from the Southern Arc, as well as one well known South Asian, and a Armenian who made a YouTube video as well as one Russian who labeled R1b as Arbins. One by one they have all been proven wrong.
    Last edited by Silesian; 07-08-22 at 01:18.

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    The owner of Eupedia believes that R-M269 descends from the Southern Arc and crossed the Caucasus on to the steppe sometime in the 5th millennium BC.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Sorry not interested in Etruscans, unless they used an axe in hand to hand challenges for dominance and or combat like the R1b steppe ancestors of the Latins. As far as iron use, unless it is older than Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Catacombe(proto Latins-) R1b-Z2103/L51+ steppe not interested, sorry.

    Sorry, not interested in your pseudo-Nordicist Steppe fetish.
    The Etruscans were largely R1b, including R-L2 which is pretty European, just like the IE-speaking Latins and Etruscans and Latins were similar at the autosomal level too..both groups were much more EEF than Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The owner of Eupedia believes that R-M269 descends from the Southern Arc and crossed the Caucasus on to the steppe sometime in the 5th millennium BC.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    . At one time I use to debate the R1b-V88 deep ancestral roots in Africa. One be one these ideas are being overturned when one looks at the SNPs connected lineages from ancient genetic samples.

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