David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

As for the Greeks, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by an Indo-European "spirit" having contributed to the greatness of Greece, unless you mean a more militarized culture.

Being 'warlike' was an important virtue in Greek culture. It was associated with heroism, nobility, honour, courage, excellence, freedom, independence, self-reliance, self-determination, not being a slave, not being a coward, etc.
 
Yes, e.g.:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_laws

They were less cruel and inhumane in their punishments, as well as more concerned about the individual, more generally speaking. This is something I have read multiple times in various secondary sources on the Hittites.



Their strength was also their weakness, because their rulers were not as much god-given as those of the local Oriental empires, and their structure was more federal and aristocratic, in comparison. This resulted in more inner tumult and conflicts, a weaker cohesion. Basically the quotations your brought up just proved that.



The Greeks had a unique free and logical spirit, a specific approach to art and life, which was no longer bound by as much superstition and religious restriction. I highly doubt the Minoans were the same, but its very unfortunate we don't know more about them and their writings (Linear A) being still not really fully deciphered.


Greek mythology shows Greeks were just as superstitious as the Minoans or anybody else in antiquity.

You speculate that the Minoans were somehow spiritually inferior while admitting we know little about their culture. Still you speculate.

Remember, Mycenaeans had even less Steppe as a group than modern South Europeans.
 
They believed their neighbours to the east should be conquered and treated like plants and animals.

Where does this caricature come from? The Iliad, the oldest piece of Greek literature, ends with a tribute to Hector, their "eastern enemy". Besides, the Greeks weren't a monolith and there were different ideologies and worldviews depending on the place and time period.
 
Being 'warlike' was an important virtue in Greek culture. It was associated with heroism, nobility, honour, courage, excellence, freedom, independence, self-reliance, self-determination, not being a slave, not being a coward, etc.

Let's pretend I agree with you that this was the case with all of the Greek city states.

You think the elevation of warfare as the supreme good is to be admired? It's to be admired in their culture even when it's completely hypocritical? In this scenario, the culture believes that the fact that it can, through the use of arms, enslave other people makes them superior, and the vanquished inferior.

You don't know where that leads? It leads to things like the Lombard laws creating a permanent underclass. The same thing can be seen in the Anglo-Saxon laws about the Britons. Ultimately it leads to Nazi ideology.

That's an absolutely amoral and disturbing view, imo.

Plus, I think it's incorrect. There was at least one culture in Greece which believed these things: Sparta. Great warriors, but practically illiterate. Give me Athens every time. That's the tradition which created western culture, which produced philosophers, doctors, scientists, poets, playwrights, and on and on.
 
Where does this caricature come from? The Iliad, the oldest piece of Greek literature, ends with a tribute to Hector, their "eastern enemy". Besides, the Greeks weren't a monolith and there were different ideologies and worldviews depending on the place and time period.

If you read Aristotle's Politica, he asserts that Greeks, were capable of self-rule, and that non-Greeks were natural slaves, who were exploited as to reach their full potential.

Obviously, no group is a monolith, just like not everyone in Nazi Germany, was a Nazi, or everyone in the USSR was a communist.
 
If you read Aristotle's Politica, he asserts that Greeks, were capable of self-rule, and that non-Greeks were natural slaves, who were exploited as to reach their full potential.

Obviously, no group is a monolith, just like not everyone in Nazi Germany, was a Nazi, or everyone in the USSR was a communist.

Also, many of the preceding Greeks from the Mycenaeans were likely genetically similar according to the Biomuse PCA, which documents Greeks from the mesolithic to the middle ages.

MExlHyN.png
 
Not even sure what I just read in the last two pages of the thread.

Like, cant tell if you people disagree with each other since on both camps more or less the same facts are being reaffirmed.

The fact of the matter is there is a reason from Ireland to Northern India, Indo European languages are spoken. Few places in between, ie Anatolia, where that is not the case, the why and how still has something to do with the steppe.

These are just the facts. Otherwise David Reich, Lazardis, Patterson, Anthony etc would not waste their time paper after paper, year after year, trying to narrow down the IE homeland. I have an idea what the replies to this will be, "but eastern Anatolia", to which a simple steppe as a secondary homeland and vector of expansion should be an obvious reply.
In fact it feels of all the academics I mentioned, contrary to what some blogs were arguing against for years, Anthony might have been right on the money. More so I am interested in seeing if these IA(Indo-Anatolian) languages have anything to do with CHG waves in Anatolia, cause in that case CHG as not only a female mediated phenomena into the steppe would be vindicated. And could explain a lot as far as Y DNA discrepancies go.

PS: I feel bad for Silesian, he keeps being asked for sources, provides, then when he asks in kind gets gaslighted, lol.
 
Let's pretend I agree with you that this was the case with all of the Greek city states.

You think the elevation of warfare as the supreme good is to be admired? It's to be admired in their culture even when it's completely hypocritical? In this scenario, the culture believes that the fact that it can, through the use of arms, enslave other people makes them superior, and the vanquished inferior.

You don't know where that leads? It leads to things like the Lombard laws creating a permanent underclass. The same thing can be seen in the Anglo-Saxon laws about the Britons. Ultimately it leads to Nazi ideology.

That's an absolutely amoral and disturbing view, imo.

Plus, I think it's incorrect. There was at least one culture in Greece which believed these things: Sparta. Great warriors, but practically illiterate. Give me Athens every time. That's the tradition which created western culture, which produced philosophers, doctors, scientists, poets, playwrights, and on and on.

These people like to glorify war, violence and 'conquests'. If someone is not like that (or a 'population' is not like that) they are 'cowards and inferior'. It's Nazi fantasy.
 
The fact of the matter is there is a reason from Ireland to Northern India, Indo European languages are spoken. Few places in between, ie Anatolia, where that is not the case, the why and how still has something to do with the steppe.

There's no doubt that the presence of the haplogroups, and autosomal DNA point to a large scale expansion from the steppe. Surely, it is responsible for spreading the language in many cases. But just like the adoption of Arabic numerals in places where there were no Arabs, could also be the same dynamic for the spread of some IE.

Then there's the spread of religion, well Christianity is a perfect example of how foreign beliefs can travel to people who had nothing to do with the development. Christianity is synonymous with Europe, more so than the middle east where it came from.
 
Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out. Apart from the CHG waves into Anatolia, I am really interested around the cradle of civilization, for which we have no samples right now, namely Mesopotamia, Uruk etc... Fascinating people that have been studied for centuries, but for whom DNA is lacking.
 
Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out. Apart from the CHG waves into Anatolia, I am really interested around the cradle of civilization, for which we have no samples right now, namely Mesopotamia, Uruk etc... Fascinating people that have been studied for centuries, but for whom DNA is lacking.

Urartu should be interesting as well, especially considering the biblical dispersal of the sons of Noah. I wonder if the new papers will provide any correlation.
 
Urartu should be interesting as well, especially considering the biblical dispersal of the sons of Noah. I wonder if the new papers will provide any correlation.

I think the very title of the paper is a shoutout to the fertile crescent. But I could be wrong.

800px-Fertile_Crescent_7500_BC_NOR.PNG


I made a post earlier with some sources, on how flood myths could have been a result of earlier smaller settlements being flooded due to glaciers melting post glacial maximum 20-8kya. Leading to early communities that survived fleeing uphill and consolidating into larger communities.

1024px-Map_Ubaid_culture-en.svg.png




Here is the post I made some months ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42613-Regarding-Great-Flood-Myths
 
Can't wait for the end of the month, when the paper finally comes out.

Great timing, because I'll be just coming back from visiting Anatolia/Turkey (Istanbul, Ephesus), Greece (Islands and mainland), and Italy (Rome). It will be nice to be off the grid for those two weeks too.
 
Great timing, because I'll be just coming back from visiting Anatolia (Istanbul, Ephesus), Greece (Islands and mainland), and Italy (Rome).

Hope the heatwave that just passed does not repeat, cause up to a week ago it was unbearable ~110F. But at least the sea should help cool off either way.
 
Hope the heatwave that just passed does not repeat, cause up to a week ago it was unbearable ~110F. But at least the sea should help cool off either way.

It's been pretty hot here too, but the most it has gone was 100 F for a day or two. But the humidity makes you feel like you are walking through soup.

I mostly drive around when I go to NYC now, but I remember in 2018, I believe we had 100 F almost regularly. Nothing worse than the smell of hot garbage baking on a concrete slab. Back then, it was before I discovered "Spot hero" which has really revolutionized driving in the city I find. It allows you to shop for cheap parking garage, and you get a reduced price than the regular cost. Otherwise, trying to find parking in the city, is like a layer of hell from Dante's inferno.
 
I think the very title of the paper is a shoutout to the fertile crescent. But I could be wrong.

800px-Fertile_Crescent_7500_BC_NOR.PNG


I made a post earlier with some sources, on how flood myths could have been a result of earlier smaller settlements being flooded due to glaciers melting post glacial maximum 20-8kya. Leading to early communities that survived fleeing uphill and consolidating into larger communities.

1024px-Map_Ubaid_culture-en.svg.png




Here is the post I made some months ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42613-Regarding-Great-Flood-Myths

I think there may be some sample from Urartu, given this excerpt from the abstract. But we'll know for sure in a few weeks:

A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu.
 
The ETA is end of August?
 
The ETA is end of August?

That's what the rumors say. But you never know, people have been waiting for this paper since September last year.
 

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