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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The owner of Eupedia believes that R-M269 descends from the Southern Arc and crossed the Caucasus on to the steppe sometime in the 5th millennium BC.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    I think that the R1b could not originate in the Southern Arc considering M73.

    m73
    L23





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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Sorry, not interested in your pseudo-Nordicist Steppe fetish.
    The Etruscans were largely R1b, including R-L2 which is pretty European, just like the IE-speaking Latins and Etruscans and Latins were similar at the autosomal level too..both groups were much more EEF than Steppe.
    There is one Italian professor who belonged to the same SNP cluster as myself. When Reich and company published R1b-754 Villabruno 14k+/- he came to the conclusion that those Etruscan samples did not have anything to do with the stepe, but we're native, he called it the Italian refugium of R1b in Europe. On a another note, I remember emailing Zawhii Hawass as to the actual King Tut ydna results ,since there was a theory floating around that he was connected in lineage to a Hittite line. This was before my interest in iron found on the steppe and Tut's iron meteor blade burial.
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    Basically, Maciamo Hay has R1b M269 and all descendent branches traced back to the eastern wing of the southern arc. This was his theory from more than 10 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Basically, Maciamo Hay has R1b M269 and all descendent branches traced back to the eastern wing of the southern arc. This was his theory from more than 10 years ago.
    We have to wait and see maybe he is right. As it stands right now Villabruno R1b-754 14k+/- line is older than anything from Southern Arc region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    There is one Italian professor who belonged to the same SNP cluster as myself. When Reich and company published R1b-754 Villabruno 14k+/- he came to the conclusion that those Etruscan samples did not have anything to do with the stepe, but we're native, he called it the Italian refugium of R1b in Europe. On a another note, I remember emailing Zawhii Hawass as to the actual King Tut ydna results ,since there was a theory floating around that he was connected in lineage to a Hittite line. This was before my interest in iron found on the steppe and Tut's iron meteor blade burial.
    You can ignore that self-proclaimed Italian professor (he taught literature at school, not genetics). For him, any marker comes from the imaginary Italian refugium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You can ignore that self-proclaimed Italian professor (he taught literature at school, not genetics). For him, any marker comes from the imaginary Italian refugium.
    He had quite a temper. when he debated another Italian with RR initial, back in the day when strs were used to look for timed mutations, that was around Ken Nordtfelt time.There would be major fireworks if he ever debated Angela. Anyway it is still interesting that Italy so far has the oldest R1b sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think that the R1b could not originate in the Southern Arc considering M73.
    m73
    L23




    R1b-V1636 branch is not mentioned very much, some old samples around the Hunter Gatherer M73 Samara region also the area that possible proto Yamnaya IO432 sample negative for Z2103 -z2108 (typical Yamnaya.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    He had quite a temper. when he debated another Italian with RR initial, back in the day when strs were used to look for timed mutations, that was around Ken Nordtfelt time.There would be major fireworks if he ever debated Angela. Anyway it is still interesting that Italy so far has the oldest R1b sample.
    You do me wrong. :) I didn't agree with virtually anything he said, but I liked him as a human being, and we were on quite good terms. He was always a gentleman with me, never insulted me or sent me gross pms, was always honest, a straight shooter, no games or schemes or manipulations, and later on he was very good to his mother when she was ill. He was or is a much nicer man than a lot of men in this hobby. His ideas were dotty, but like a lot of dotty ideas posted on this site, I just ignore them. When you don't respond to people who have these obsessive "theories" because they're a bit off, they will eventually stop posting about it. So long as it's not harmful stuff, I ignore it.

    I reserved and reserve my ire for racists and t-rolls against any group, and for those who insult other people as well as me.

    Spirited debate is another matter. I used to have a lot of them with LeBrok, and then Bicicleur. I quite enjoyed my recent debate with Real Expert too.

    Oh, I had no problem with Ken, either. I thought it was very wrong of Jean to basically have him silenced because she didn't like his politics, and it wasn't because I often agreed with his politics. Everyone should be allowed to speak if it's done in a civil way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Global25 is actually perfectly capable of detecting Steppe in the samples that have it. Are you opposed to PIE from Steppe?
    It's Reich that is opposed to PIE from Steppe, because he will probably have elements that prove it. Let's wait for the papers to come out and we will see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The owner of Eupedia believes that R-M269 descends from the Southern Arc and crossed the Caucasus on to the steppe sometime in the 5th millennium BC.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    I made a map explaining this scenario a while back



    But Reich never mentioned that they found the Yamnaya paternal lineages south. He just stated "Anatolia was isolated" therefore PIE urheimat = Middle East, which is quite a leap in logic to say the least.

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    ^^To me this is not so surprising, because there is a non-steppe CHG/Iran-related pulse into the Mediterranean during the early Bronze age. To me this is much bigger than the spread of the Indo-European languages. It is the ethnogenesis of the Mediterranean meta-ethnicity; Anatolia_N/CHG + Contemporaneous European populations. Which gave rise to the Ancient Greeks, and likely Ancient Southern Italians, among others. Maybe it is anti-nordicist in the sense that it could repudiate the canard that Southern Europeans are half-Northern European/half-Levantine (or whatever the lunatics on certain sites believe) I emphatically assert that the Romans and Etruscans were also a part of that continuum, with Minoans at the other end of it. The people within that genetic continuum were indeed the progenitors of Western Civilization in classical antiquity. It makes me think of the thread, "Do you have an affinity to Greco-Roman culture"; absolutely I do. The affinity is by culture, and by blood.

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    I made this map a long time ago, (relatively speaking)

    *The only change I would make today is instead of ABA-like migrations, I would say Minoan/Greece_N-like migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I made a map explaining this scenario a while back



    But Reich never mentioned that they found the Yamnaya paternal lineages south. He just stated "Anatolia was isolated" therefore PIE urheimat = Middle East, which is quite a leap in logic to say the least.
    We should know more soon. I think they may have discovered 2 different “Yamnaya” paternal lineages that originated south of the Caucasus and then moved on to the steppe. At least that’s how I interpret it. According to Reich:

    “A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal.”

    Here Reich mentions not 1, but 2 distinct Yamnaya gene flows from west Asia. I’m assuming this is somewhere around Armenia or NW Iran. This would enable Indo Anatolian, the first IE branch, to be born in the southern Arc and then move out on to the Steppe, where the wheel, wagon, and domesticated horse were invented. We have the traditional Yamnaya who date back to about 3300 BC (largely R-Z2103) but there is definitely another Yamnaya group who branched off earlier, perhaps around 4200BC or earlier, because it has been mentioned over at Eurogenes that they have a bunch of Yamnaya rich samples from SW Ukraine dated 4000BC. These would be likely connected to Suvorovo Novodanilovka, Cernavoda, and Usatovo groups (pre Yamnaya steppe groups that led the charge west across the steppe). Traditionally it was thought that these groups spread the Anatolian language complex to western Turkey via the Balkans. Perhaps some even older samples belonging to lineages found in the NW Black Sea region have been discovered just south of the Caucasus. In this way, we don’t need Proto Anatolian to wrap around the Black Sea via the steppe if it already originated near or in eastern Turkey.

    Not saying I agree or disagree with any of this, but that’s my interpretation of the above passage. I’ve always been a proponent of Indo Anatolian forming either on the steppe or in the NW Caucasus and moving into western Turkey via the steppe and then the Balkans. So I’m very very interested to see these 731 new samples.

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    Nick Patterson

    https://www.college-de-france.fr/sit...5-31-12h00.htm

    The Secondary Homelands of the Indo-European Languages (IG-AT2022)
    Day1,2,3 Armenian and Tocharian should also be quite interesting.

    https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en...ages-ig-at2022

    Jim Mallory (Keynote lecture) Secondary homelands, primary problems
    Here is an old Tocharian video--I doubt R1a had anything to do with Tocharians.
    <span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: georgia, serif;">

    Again we will see if any Armenian samples come in as R1a.

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    @Polska

    Nice move trying to squeeze into that long post of yours the notion that the wheel was a Steppe invention.

    Actually it was a Sumerian invention from Uruk.

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    Two major ancient festivals are still held in the north of Iran, both of them have Celtic origin, one of them is the fire festival of Norooz Bal (Beltane) at the beginning of summer and another one is Alaalo (Samhain) at the beginning of winter: https://surfiran.com/tir-maah-sizdah-sho-festival/

    The ceremony begins at sunset of 12th of Aban (November 3rd) and lasts until midnight. A young man is chosen to be the most important figure of the night. He has to bathe himself (in some places in a cold river). Then he wears long old clothes and paints his face. They used to wear a hat that had straws hanging from its rim so the face was not recognizable.

    These days they even use masks for that reason. If the person is a descendant of Prophet Mohammed, he should wear a green shawl around his waist. This person is called Laal for this night.

    Two other people accompany him. First is Laal Shish who carries 6 wands that were recently cut from willow or mulberry tree. The second person who is called Laal Maar, carries a bag to collect things that Laal receives for the night. Sometimes only one person takes role Shish and Laal Maar.

    The three people go door to door and two assistants of Laal have to knock, sing and let the host know that Laal is at their door. When they enter, Laal is not allowed to speak a word. He should ask for gifts only by his gesture and Laal Maar helps him and retells what he wants.

    They receive gifts such as fruits, sweets or money. He then gently hits members of the house with one of the wands and people believe that being hit by Laal’s wand will bring them good luck.

    If there is an unmarried girl or a sterile woman, Laal hits them several times with the wand so the girl gets married and the woman bears a child in the following year. It was believed that when Laal hits someone by wand, that person won’t get sick throughout the whole year.



    https://newsmedia.tasnimnews.com/Tas...2215548614.jpg

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    R-M12149 YTree (yfull.com)

    There's 2 Tocharians on YFULL @ R-M12149*, there's F38 (Medes?) @ R-Y23838* (downstream of R-M12149, together with a modern Albanian and an Armenian), and also the highly controversial Iran-HajjiFirruz-IA I2327 was positive for R-M12149*.

    Modern day Armenians, Kurds and other S. Caucasians and Iranics have a lot of R-L584 (downstream of R-M12149).

    I am very curious if there's anything in store for this branch of R1b in the Southern Arc, I really hope there is.



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    Regarding Romulus and Remus:

    "The founding of Rome is the Roman historicization of the Indo-European creation myth, both cosmogonic and anthropogonic, which involves the twins "Twin" and "Man" and the sacrificing of "Twin" in the process of creation. (…) The founding of Rome is quite literally a saga transposition of the act of creating the world, man, and society. Remus was thus the original "Twin," and Romulus was the "Man," and both were born of a primal female deity, Rea (Silvia). Remus was sacrificed as part of the act of creation, which led to the birth of the three Roman "tribes" and the accession of Romulus to his integral kingship (…) strangely enough, the "crude" version of the creation myth has also been surreptitiously preserved in the same Roman tradition. Parallel to the standard thunderstorm apotheosis of Romulus there is in many sources the alternative tradition that he was killed by the senators for being a tyrant; the perpetrators then cut up his body and carried away the pieces under their robes. That this tale of Romulus's death is to be connected with the Indo-European creation myth has been recognized by Walter Burkert. It is obviously what is left in a "historicized" version of the Roman mythical equivalent of the slaughter of Purusa, Ymir, and Gayomart (…)While the youth of Remus and Romulus may be "Asvinic," their role in the founding of the city transports us to a separate Indo-European myth complex, that of the primeval twins.”

    - Jaan Puhvel (1975), Remus et Frater

    “Wolves and dogs were the principle symbols of a specific kind of Indo-European war-band: the youthful war-band composed of boys who had been initiated into a liminal introductory period of warrior status, an Indo-European institution that left many small and large traces in Indo-European myths, legends, and vocabulary. Youthful war-bands were represented symbolically as wolves and/or dogs, or were raised by wolves like Romulus and Remus, same-age boys evicted from their families and thrown into the wilderness. … References to this institution can be found in mythological and epic traditions in Germanic (where they are called Mannerbunde, a label often applied to all similar Indo-European institutions), Celtic (fian), (Italic (luperci or sodales), Greek (koryos, ephebes) and in Indo-Iranian particularly in Vedic sources (vratyas, Maruts).”

    - Brown & Anthony (2018), Late Bronze Age midwinter dog sacrifices and warrior initiations at Krasnosamarskoe, Russia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ..........I used to have a lot of them with LeBrok, and then Bicicleur. I quite enjoyed my recent debate with Real Expert too.

    Oh, I had no problem with Ken, either. I thought it was very wrong of Jean to basically have him silenced because she didn't like his politics, and it wasn't because I often agreed with his politics. Everyone should be allowed to speak if it's done in a civil way.

    Glad to know that you've enjoyed our recent discussion. To politely and productively disagree makes even a heated debate enjoyable. Hence, without the willingness to entertain alternative viewpoints disagreements feel deadly serious and frustrating. In discourse, it's often a challenge to express your point of view without offending your discussion partner. At the same time, it’s important to express your honest opinion. Ideally, a debate provides us with the opportunity to think critically and encourages us to value truth and the process of seeking truth. We won't always reach this ideal but we should at least aspire to.
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Regarding Romulus and Remus:

    "The founding of Rome is the Roman historicization of the Indo-European creation myth, both cosmogonic and anthropogonic, which involves the twins "Twin" and "Man" and the sacrificing of "Twin" in the process of creation. (…) The founding of Rome is quite literally a saga transposition of the act of creating the world, man, and society. Remus was thus the original "Twin," and Romulus was the "Man," and both were born of a primal female deity, Rea (Silvia). Remus was sacrificed as part of the act of creation, which led to the birth of the three Roman "tribes" and the accession of Romulus to his integral kingship (…) strangely enough, the "crude" version of the creation myth has also been surreptitiously preserved in the same Roman tradition. Parallel to the standard thunderstorm apotheosis of Romulus there is in many sources the alternative tradition that he was killed by the senators for being a tyrant; the perpetrators then cut up his body and carried away the pieces under their robes. That this tale of Romulus's death is to be connected with the Indo-European creation myth has been recognized by Walter Burkert. It is obviously what is left in a "historicized" version of the Roman mythical equivalent of the slaughter of Purusa, Ymir, and Gayomart (…)While the youth of Remus and Romulus may be "Asvinic," their role in the founding of the city transports us to a separate Indo-European myth complex, that of the primeval twins.”

    - Jaan Puhvel (1975), Remus et Frater

    “Wolves and dogs were the principle symbols of a specific kind of Indo-European war-band: the youthful war-band composed of boys who had been initiated into a liminal introductory period of warrior status, an Indo-European institution that left many small and large traces in Indo-European myths, legends, and vocabulary. Youthful war-bands were represented symbolically as wolves and/or dogs, or were raised by wolves like Romulus and Remus, same-age boys evicted from their families and thrown into the wilderness. … References to this institution can be found in mythological and epic traditions in Germanic (where they are called Mannerbunde, a label often applied to all similar Indo-European institutions), Celtic (fian), (Italic (luperci or sodales), Greek (koryos, ephebes) and in Indo-Iranian particularly in Vedic sources (vratyas, Maruts).”

    - Brown & Anthony (2018), Late Bronze Age midwinter dog sacrifices and warrior initiations at Krasnosamarskoe, Russia
    Another ancient region in the north of Iran is Hyrcania which means "Wolf-land": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcania People of this region are already mostly Turkmen but in the ancient times they were an Indo-European people, they believe that their founding ancestor was nursed by a wolf. In the Bronze or Iron age, they migrated to the Hyrcanian plain in the west of Anatolia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcanian_plain


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    @Silesian and real expert

    Give it a rest.

    The Latins and Etruscans were both far more EEF than Steppe genetically.
    This is probably going to upset you but the anger you display through your comments on the Steppe people reveals that you were kinda traumatized by Nordicism. Rest assured I don't claim the Romans nor the Etruscans since I'm not ashamed of my "Barbarian" ancestors and respect other people's heritage. However, I give credit where credit is due, regardless of whether the people are "civilized" or so-called "Barbarians".


    Here's the thing these unskilled savages as you "affectionally" call them, are important and do matter to the extent that scholars are invested in searching out their origin and homeland. The truth of the matter is, that those steppe pastoralists spread out over much of Eurasia, and wherever they went – basically all of Europe, India, and plenty of the lands in between they conquered and assimilated the local populations. Whilst the customs, languages, and worldviews of the pre-Indo-European populations definitely exerted an influence on the hybrid societies that formed after this conquest, the basic template of these societies was solidly Indo-European.

    Furthermore, language is essential and immanent to the expression of culture. Language is a fundamental aspect of cultural identity. It is the means by which we convey our innermost self from generation to generation. It is through language that we transmit and express our culture and its values. So, not only bloodline, DNA but language as well plays a very crucial role in human identity. The fact that the Etruscans didn't speak an Indo-European language in spite of being majority R1b-boys and having as much Steppe ancestry as the Romans indicates that they didn't have a firm Indo-European culture or society. In contrast, the Latins/Romans were solidly Indo-European culturally speaking which is reflected by their language. Maybe the Etruscans were mama’s boys and the Latins/Romans the daddy's boys. Who knows? Anyway, in contrast to the Romans, Etruscan women retained their maiden names and were not considered their father or husband’s possession. The Etruscan women, unlike Greek or Roman women, were able to participate in banquets as diners. According to the Greeks and the Romans this custom was not only strange but outright barbaric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    This is probably going to upset you but the anger you display through your comments on the Steppe people reveals that you were kinda traumatized by Nordicism. Rest assured I don't claim the Romans nor the Etruscans since I'm not ashamed of my "Barbarian" ancestors and respect other people's heritage. However, I give credit where credit is due, regardless of whether the people are "civilized" or so-called "Barbarians".


    Here's the thing these unskilled savages as you "affectionally" call them, are important and do matter to the extent that scholars are invested in searching out their origin and homeland. The truth of the matter is, that those steppe pastoralists spread out over much of Eurasia, and wherever they went – basically all of Europe, India, and plenty of the lands in between they conquered and assimilated the local populations. Whilst the customs, languages, and worldviews of the pre-Indo-European populations definitely exerted an influence on the hybrid societies that formed after this conquest, the basic template of these societies was solidly Indo-European.

    Furthermore, language is essential and immanent to the expression of culture. Language is a fundamental aspect of cultural identity. It is the means by which we convey our innermost self from generation to generation. It is through language that we transmit and express our culture and its values. So, not only bloodline, DNA but language as well plays a very crucial role in human identity. The fact that the Etruscans didn't speak an Indo-European language in spite of being majority R1b-boys and having as much Steppe ancestry as the Romans indicates that they didn't have a firm Indo-European culture or society. In contrast, the Latins/Romans were solidly Indo-European culturally speaking which is reflected by their language. Maybe the Etruscans were mama’s boys and the Latins/Romans the daddy's boys. Who knows? Anyway, in contrast to the Romans, Etruscan women retained their maiden names and were not considered their father or husband’s possession. The Etruscan women, unlike Greek or Roman women, were able to participate in banquets as diners. According to the Greeks and the Romans this custom was not only strange but outright barbaric.

    You continue to display knowledge based on platitudes and commonplaces.

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    Sorry, thought better of it.

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