David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Jovialis]

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022/06/19/new-david-reich-talk/

Razib Khan makes some comments.

[Tomenable]

Will be a very interesting study!

[Jovialis]

In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers. We provide insights into the Mycenaean period of the Aegean by documenting variation in the proportion of steppe ancestry (including some individuals who lack it altogether), and finding no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos [Mycenanean Greece starts at 1750 BC, so probably at least 500 years at least from the major penetration of Indo-Europeans, so that’s 20 generations or so. That seems enough time for status-gene correlations to breakdown if there’s no endogamous caste-like structure].

What about this?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...)-from-Biomuse

[Moja]

Scholars of the Max Planck Institute also say: "we are quite certain that the Indo-European languages ultimately originated in the Fertile Crescent, as proponents of the Anatolian theory suppose, but not, as they suggest, in western and central Anatolia; rather, it emerged from northern Iran."

Almost all ancient toponyms in the north of Iran have Proto-Indo-European origins, for example the highest mountain in Gilan is Somamoos from Proto-Indo-European *súm̥mos "highest, summit".

[real expert]

Scholars of the Max Planck Institute also say: "we are quite certain that the Indo-European languages ultimately originated in the Fertile Crescent, as proponents of the Anatolian theory suppose, but not, as they suggest, in western and central Anatolia; rather, it emerged from northern Iran."

Almost all ancient toponyms in the north of Iran have Proto-Indo-European origins, for example the highest mountain in Gilan is Somamoos from Proto-Indo-European *súm̥mos "highest, summit".

To me, it appears that Krause and Reich, when it comes to the PIE origin, are rather driven by research bias and pet theories than by hard data. But that's just my two cents.

[Pax Augusta]

I hold David Reich in high esteem, but when geneticists want to completely replace historians, archaeologists, anthropologists and linguists it is never a good sign and conclusions can also be very inconclusive. We have seen this happen many times before.

[Moja]

To me, it appears that Krause and Reich, when it comes to the PIE origin, are rather driven by research bias and pet theories than by hard data. But that's just my two cents.

In the northwest of Iran (Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia), we know Caucasian and Hurro-Urartian languages existed, in the west of Iran (Iraq), there were Akkadian and Sumerian languages, in the south of Iran there was Elamite, in the east of Iran (Afghanistan and Pakistan), Dravidian and Burushaski languages existed but we know nothing except Indo-European languages in the north of Iran.

[Moja]

I hold David Reich in high esteem, but when geneticists want to completely replace historians, archaeologists, anthropologists and linguists it is never a good sign and conclusions can also be very inconclusive. We have seen this happen many times before.

You certainly know about Hotu Cave in the north of Iran and Iranian-related ancestry in Europe, Anatolia, Iran, Central Asia and India, would you please tell me what the language of these people was?

[torzio]

The majority of Latin and Etruscan autosomal DNA was Anatolia_N, that was attributed by Central Italian neolithic farmers.


I think this lecture also confirms that Minoan-like ancestry plus a smaller steppe component was ubiquitous in Ancient Greece. Which I also agree with academics, may have been common in Southern Italy during this time.


The description seems careful to note it was "Imperial Rome" where Anatolia_ChL-IA ancestry (Eastern Mediterraean C5) was present. As we know, it seemed to fade out of existence in Rome after Late Antiquity.

One needs to see what is Anatolian North ...........is it Barcin area ( where Europe meets Asia).......was it a mix of Thracian and Phygian ?

it would be the same difference as South Caucasus is to North Caucasus

[MOESAN]

Agree with the statement that language and DNA (autosomes and haplo's) can have some historic links what doesn't mean this link could stay unchanged as time passes.
I have only questions:
Are we sure Mycenian Greek was the first form of the already diversified IE dialect which gave birth to "our" Greek?
Is it not amazing that PIE was born south the Caucasus in regions which saw already a lot of languages families cradles ? Too much would not be too much? And the apparent links with Finnic-Ugric?
Are we sure of the first dates of apparition of the IE Anatolian dialects and of their high antiquity? (question of speak vs writing, but in these regions writings appeared early)
Are not the first apparitions of 'steppic' DNA south the Caucasus sooner than these dialects in Anatolia?

At the opposite, IE shows also some slight convergence with Semitic, which could attract its supposed cradle closer to Near-East (?).
We could be surprised by the sophisticated IE grammar for dialects born in the Steppes among rather nomadic tribes; but when we see the high level of eloquent epic traditions among IE later, a job of appointed professionals in some cases at least...

I know I could pass for a dispairing cold hope killer (or a moron, to speak like Davidsky, whatever his skills and weaknesses) by my posts, but todate I'm still between two thoughts about PIE, so interpretable are the facts we have, according to our "faith".

[Johane Derite]

Scholars of the Max Planck Institute also say: "we are quite certain that the Indo-European languages ultimately originated in the Fertile Crescent, as proponents of the Anatolian theory suppose, but not, as they suggest, in western and central Anatolia; rather, it emerged from northern Iran."

Almost all ancient toponyms in the north of Iran have Proto-Indo-European origins, for example the highest mountain in Gilan is Somamoos from Proto-Indo-European *súm̥mos "highest, summit".

really interesting, where is the quote from? Is there a more specific link?

[torzio]

I tend to agree, but I think you mean from contemporaneous Iron/Republican age Anatolian/Middle East populations. However, I would be cautious with over generalizing since the Antonio et al 2019 paper did document some Iranian Neolithic ancestry in the Republican/Iron Age, which might not be exactly the same as the Iranian ancestry from the Iron Age/Republican age, which is likely the case. In addition, in the Neolithic period, there was a substantial increase in Early European Farmer related DNA (Anatolian Farmers) and Iranian Farmers as well.

Now if you want to argue the 11 Republican/Iron Age Romans are "non elites" like some of the dogmatic Indo-European Steppe blogger/website groupies or the more Nordicist types, then you are back to the same way of thinking that was out there regarding the Mycenean Greeks.

I like to completely separate admixture from Republican Roman samples from Imperial Roman samples.

[Moja]

really interesting, where is the quote from? Is there a more specific link?

From the book "A Short History of Humanity: A New History of Old Europe" (page 186), it was published last year.

[Palermo Trapani]

I like to completely separate admixture from Republican Roman samples from Imperial Roman samples.

Ok fair enough. Are there any Republican Roman Samples that you would like to separate from other Republican Roman Samples? So for example, if you wanted to separate only 1, perhaps it would be R475?, if it is 2, then R475 along with R850 perhaps?, and I would think if the number is 3, lets throw in say, hmmmmmmm, R437 maybe?

[Moja]

Is it not amazing that PIE was born south the Caucasus in regions which saw already a lot of languages families cradles ?

Where did you read "south the Caucasus"? It says "We present an integrative genetic history of the Southern Arc, an area divided geographically between West Asia and Europe, but which we define as spanning the culturally entangled regions of Anatolia and its neighbors, in both Europe (Aegean and the Balkans), and in West Asia (Cyprus, Armenia, the Levant, Iraq and Iran)." and then" the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc", it means north of Iran. What languages families existed there?!

[Palermo Trapani]

One needs to see what is Anatolian North ...........is it Barcin area ( where Europe meets Asia).......was it a mix of Thracian and Phygian ?
it would be the same difference as South Caucasus is to North Caucasus

I think what Jovialis was referring to, not that I am speaking for him, is Anatolian_N equals Neolithic Anatolian Early European Farmer type ancestry being predominate in the Central Italian Neolithic Farmers. It does not mean Anatolian North I suspect. Furthermore, Thracian and Phygian are "Late Bronze Age" civilizations/peoples. The Thracians, based on Modi et al 2019 "Ancient human mitochondrial genomes from Bronze Age Bulgaria: new insights into the genetic history of Thracians" document that the Thracians were genetically largely a 2-way admixture of Anatolian Early European Farmers and Steppe Herder source populations. From the paper

"In particular, within the ancient Eurasian genetic landscape, Thracians locate in an intermediate position between Early Neolithic farmers and Late Neolithic-Bronze Age steppe pastoralists, supporting the scenario that the Balkan region has been a link between Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean since the prehistoric time. "


I am unaware of any Genetic study in the literature regarding the Phygians. My ex ante priors would be that it is very, very, very, likely, they would also harbor significant Anatolian Neolithic Early European Farmer type ancestry as well, along with other source ancestries from Southern Caucuses/Iran given their geography and some Steppe DNA given they spoke an early Indo-European language. But again, regarding the Phygians, my guesses are only speculation based on their geography as I am unaware of any DNA studies regarding them.

[kingjohn]

People here mention the sumerians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
More than likely the samples are from north mesopotamia so i don't think they would
Have any connection to sumerians
We probably going to see : G,j,H,C, and maybe some type of R if those remains are farmers from south east anatolia + northern mesopotamia

P.s
I forgot L1b y haplogroup and maybe some T
But not as the dominant haplogroups in this region

[Palermo Trapani]

People here mention the sumerians
More than likely the samples are from north mesopotamia so i don't think they would
Have any connection to sumerians
We probably going to see : G,j,H,C, and maybe some type of R if those remains are farmers from south east anatolia + northern mesopotamia
P.s
I forgot L1b y haplogroup and maybe some T
But not as the dominant haplogroups in this region

Kingjohn: So you think the samples are only from Northern Mesopotamia. Hopefully they have some from Southern Mesopotamia as well.

[bigsnake49]

I hold David Reich in high esteem, but when geneticists want to completely replace historians, archaeologists, anthropologists and linguists it is never a good sign and conclusions can also be very inconclusive. We have seen this happen many times before.

Genetics and linguistics are not always coincident.

[kingjohn]

Kingjohn: So you think the samples are only from Northern Mesopotamia. Hopefully they have some from Southern Mesopotamia as well.

Yes i do
I hope i am wrong
Because to know the y haplogroups
Of sumerians would be amazing ( great civilization)

[Johane Derite]

From the book "A Short History of Humanity: A New History of Old Europe" (page 186), it was published last year.

Thanks. I screenshotted it here for future reference. His phylogeny places Albanian, Greek, and Armenian as one branch that broke up after Tocharian.

[Palermo Trapani]

Yes i do
I hope i am wrong
Because to know the y haplogroups
Of sumerians would be amazing ( great civilization)

Yes, there have been excavations in Southern Iraq (Southern Mesopotamia) over the last century. Just earlier this year, they found a boat near Ur I think which suggest a waterway linking the ancient city once existed. There are ancient Temples that have been discovered and are being excavated, ports have been found, evidence of trading with South Asia (India) via the sea, etc. The ancient Sumerian Temples had skeletal remains of human in them. So I guess no successful DNA has been sequenced from those ancient remains found in the Royal urial sites in those Temples.

[MOESAN]

Where did you read "south the Caucasus"? It says "We present an integrative genetic history of the Southern Arc, an area divided geographically between West Asia and Europe, but which we define as spanning the culturally entangled regions of Anatolia and its neighbors, in both Europe (Aegean and the Balkans), and in West Asia (Cyprus, Armenia, the Levant, Iraq and Iran)." and then" the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc", it means north of Iran. What languages families existed there?!

I was speaking of the big region mentioned, which is settled south the Caucasus as a whole, when speaking of the opposition north (so Steppes)/south (a lot of regions associated traditionally with mankind progress) of this well known mountainous barrier. I was not speaking of the only Southern Caucasus. Sorry if I seemed speaking of the only regions just under these mountains.

[Moja]

I was speaking of the big region mentioned, which is settled south the Caucasus as a whole, when speaking of the opposition north (so Steppes)/south (a lot of regions associated traditionally with mankind progress) of this well known mountainous barrier. I was not speaking of the only Southern Caucasus. Sorry if I seemed speaking of the only regions just under these mountains.

You are actually right that there were different non-IE languages in the south of Caucasus (Armenia and northwest Iran) from the 3rd millennium BCE but we read in this abstract: "A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself." So Yamnaya couldn't be PIE homeland.

[Angela]

Angela, yes your memory is correct (it usually is). Yes, the Myceneans in the Laz et al 2014 paper were not high Steppe in admixture, which as you note some over at the Eurogenes blog (I have read some of the stuff there in the past) but other sites as well, based on comments I have seen here (Anthrogenica) and that I have read myself, attributed to the samples likely being from non-elites. Going by the new Reich research project and based on the abstract, I was admittedly drawn to the statement of the no significant difference in Steppe admixture between the elites and non-elites. However, you are correct 100% to be cautious. It could be these new Mycenean samples may have > Steppe admixture than the ones in the Lazaridis paper and still the differences between the Mycenean elites and non-elites are statistically not significant. So I sort of have a assumption built in that the Myceneans in this new Reich project have similar admixture as the ones in the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper, which of course might be an incorrect assumption.

So thanks again for suggesting caution on my part.

Yes, the ancient Mesopotamian samples is really going to be interesting. In fact, there has been some really interesting discussions here regarding them just recently, of which I think I chimed in with a few of my own thoughts.

It will really be quite extraordinary if populations high in Natufian ancestry turn out not only to have "invented" farming, but writing, irrigation, and the first large city-states and empires, as well as monotheistic religions.

Yet Nazism held that a population believed to largely derive from those Levantines was "inferior", i.e. untermenchen, to those of "Aryan" Northern European ancestry heavy with steppe ancestry.

The ironies of history never, ever, end.