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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    Could we consider Assyrians, Semitified Aryans??? Since they're R1b speaking a Semitic language.
    They also could have been reinforced by BA collapse(Troy) survivors into their Renaissance in the X century BC.
    Are you sure you're on the right site? Aryans? That is racist bilge talk. Plus, haven't you heard that the Nazis got it all wrong using that word? It has nothing to do with Europe in the first place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.
    So that's the way the "logic" is going to go now? If the urheimat of the Indo-European languages is in a corner of Anatolia, and they carried a form of R1b, and/or later on a branch of R1b came back down through the Caucasus, then all of a sudden, the usual suspects will have a conversion and admit that all of the achievements of the Near East did actually happen there???

    This is unbelievable.

    I have news for all of you: the alleles for intelligence and creativity DON'T get passed down by the y chromosome. THEY'RE IN YOUR AUTOSOMES. Those R1b Assyrians are and were NEAR EASTERNERS, not ARYANS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    How you can say the barbarians took down Rome, what about all the people that lived in Imperial Rome???
    The years of intellectual and physical indolence, as well as "progress" of the 2nd century and what THEIR CITIZENS (and people and slaves) did in the next centuries with the social cohesion of Rome...(III century crisis...)

    By the way, I reccomend you this video.
    https://youtu.be/okuRN1Wijlw
    It says that the end of the Empire was mostly a formality, and the state of the city didn't change that much(taking into account it already was a declining Empire) until the destruction by the Byzantines during the Gothic Wars.
    I recommend that you pick up and read some history books and not rely on idiot you tube videos.

    The state of the city was not that different??? Have you ever heard of archaeology or history???

    Oh, it slipped my mind: that idiot Nordicist is going to blame it on the Byzantines. Are the Byzantines to blame for similar scenes from France and Spain and England? I have news for you: the Byzantines never got there.



    I will also just briefly reply that after the fall of Rome ALL OVER THE EMPIRE the roads fell into disrepair, many of them lost to overgrowth, trade almost came to a standstill and took hundreds of years to recover, cities disappeared or just became villages that were little more than hovels, the ability to heat homes was lost, there were no more baths and people just lived in their own bodily dirt, Europe became illiterate, there were no more doctors and on and on. Why didn't these wonderful invading tribes keep everything going?

    READ THE FOLLOWING BOOK:
    The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization-Bryan Ward Perkins.

    Listen to the archaeologists if you want to know what happened to a civilization, not ideologues.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    I don't know about intelligence genes, however to build a solid wheel to go 1000+km or a spoked wheel, would take a good craftsman.
    As for the culture of farming, and EF Near Eastern genes,and high density living, king Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines a different style. Even though most kurgans are R1b-Z2108 there are kurgans with females. And perhaps this movie was made with Alan-Sarmatian Z-2108 females in mind
    http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/artl/sarmatian.shtml

    The most fascinating feature of Sarmatian culture is their women warriors. Herodotus reported that the Sarmatians were said to be the offsprings of Scythians who had mated with Amazons and that their female descendants "have continued from that day to the present to observe their ancient [Amazon] customs, frequently hunting on horseback with their husbands; in war taking the field; and wearing the very same dress as the men" Moreover, said Herodotus, "No girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle."

    ...Both Herodotus and Hippocrates accounts inform us the Sarmatians took interest in turning their women into strong-armed huntresses and fighters. Archaeological materials seem to confirm Sarmatian women's active role in military operation and social life. Burial of armed Sarmatian women comprise large percent of the military burial in the group occupy the central position and appear the be the richest.

    Suum cuique-ancient ochre elite burial cultures in Seredny Stih phase II, Yamnaya
    - ochre burials with wagons, copper cudgel ,tanged daggers,iron-powder, beads, iron tools -weapons. Turganik Dom2 -horses; horse head shaped scepters, Kernosovkiy idol horse .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.
    There's room for you too at Apricity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    There's room for you too at Apricity.
    I have come across people who say that one tends to project and accuse their own bad traits on/against others, still trying to figure out if it's true.
    Anyway, quite interesting for whatever reason so many Assyrian Near East ydna lines kind of were replaced by R1b-Z2103 steppe shared by Armenians and Lurs, it's similar to what happened in Khvanysk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The earliest evidence for wheeled vehicles is in Europe, the earliest of all in the area of the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture:




    - Klimsha (2017), Wheeled vehicles

    “The present evidence for early wheeled transport does not support the traditional belief in the oriental invention of wheel and wagon. Full-size wheels and axles from central and eastern Europe clearly pre-date the earliest wheels from the Near East, and the indirect evidence (models, depictions) does not allow for a temporal gradient indicating diffusion ex oriente. Two alternative hypotheses remain. Innovation could have happened roughly simultaneously, but independently, in several regions (the polycentric model). … Alternatively, there was only one innovation centre. Following Maran (2004b), the late Tripolye culture (around 3700-3500 BC) in the steppe area north-west of the Pontic Sea is the most likely candidate for inventing wheeled transport”

    - Schier 2015, Oxford Handbook of Neolithic Europe, p.113
    First of all, I have a news flash for you: Cucuteni-Trypillia culture was a European Neolithic farmer society, whose people were genetically about 75% Anatolia Neolithic and 25% WHG. Nothing steppe about them.

    Second of all, your link to "Klimsha" doesn't work. Who is he or she?

    Third of all, this 400-page book by a respected Russian archaeologist puts the discovery in the Near East.
    https://www.academia.edu/5159110/Com...ort_of_Eurasia

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    Interesting to compare different styles. Perhaps Cyrus was related to the steppe Sarmatians?(Iranian peoples)
    The Edict of Restoration, a proclamation attested by a cylinder seal in which Cyrus authorized and encouraged the return of the Israelites to the Land of Israel following his conquest of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, is described in the Bible and likewise left a lasting legacy on the Jewish religion due to his role in ending the Babylonian captivity and facilitating the Jewish return to Zion. According to Isaiah 45:1 of the Hebrew Bible,[15]God anointed Cyrus for this task, even referring to him as a messiah (lit.'anointed one'); Cyrus is the only non-Jewish figure in the Bible to be revered in this capacity.[16]
    Titus(Titus Caesar Vespasianus-Flavian dynasty) on the other hand ruled with a iron fist. The Arch of Titus commemorating the destruction of a Near Eastern cuture.

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    Basques and Bashkirs also carry large numbers of R1b and they don't speak IE languages.

    Etruscan data also show a similar situation (R1b but no IE). Ancient Greeks spoke IE but no R1b so far, maybe Southern Arc will provide some?

    The relation between the spread of IE and R1b is not yet clear cut.

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    IE was the language of an ancient and complex society, well organized for the conditions of that time, they had specific words for several aspects of life and of course they were an extremely warlike society and had an expansionist ethos still going on in several frontiers, of course IE were incorporating and absorbing new people and new Y-DNA lineages all the time, only the Southern-Eastern ARC had the attributes and deep social structures for the creation and development of that diverse, original founding society and Y-DNA J haplogroup had the time and space to produce ancient Y-DNA basal nodes of the PIE. As I wrote in another place: Open steppes are characterized by a succession of different populations and events. The original population as part of the CHG/Iranian mating complex that arrived in the Eneolithic steppe had a good Southern presence of basal types of J1, the Ancient Iranians had several J1 branches as we can observe from the Steppe to BMAC. The big diversity and proportions of J1 in Eastern Anatolia, Eastern Caucasus, NW Iran and in the Southern Caspian Sea, all regions where ancient and basal J1 branches are still alive and present since the Mesolithic. Gilan is a good example with a very rich and traditional Indo-European archaeology in Marlik and a good J1 diversity in the modern local population, so we can find J1 branches in every ancient PIE or IE candidate populations. What the archaeological data is showing is that R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 were Indo-Europeanized later, just like E-V13 and I1, they were not found in the first Eneolithic IE populations and probably they were not members among the first IE groups in the Volga-N.Caucasus, neither in the Southern Caucasus and nor in Iran. We still don't know all Y-DNA lineages from the CHG/Iran populations, we know they had J1 and surprises can happen because some types of R1b or R1a could be associated with that original population, we don't know because we don't have public "unadmixed" CHG/Iranian samples, so let's wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.
    a) R1b comes from Upper Paleolithic Siberians (Ancestral North Eurasians or just ANE), R1b were present in some Tarim Basin early mummies (90% ANE ancestry). Native Americans and native Siberians are the present-day people more close to the ANE.
    b) It's a paper of 2012 and talks about PRESENT-DAY Y haplogroups, not ancient ones. But even if R1b was present in ancient Assyrians, it could be due from neolithic Iranians (they had ANE admixture).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Are you sure you're on the right site? Aryans? That is racist bilge talk. Plus, haven't you heard that the Nazis got it all wrong using that word? It has nothing to do with Europe in the first place.
    Absolutey right, Angela, I am always bewildered when people refer to the PIE people as "Aryans". The term is only used in scientific debate when referring to the Indo-Iranians, Indo-Aryans and/or Iranics. There is zero evidence that it was ever used by other peoples as an ethnonym.

    My understanding regarding R1b-Z2103 in the Near East is that it arrived in two waves. First in the 3rd millennium BC with fleeing tribes from the steppe looking for refuge in the Southern Caucasus because Abashevo-culture was pushing into the steppe and largely replaced Yamnaya/Catacomb. This first wave is probably related to Assyrian and Armenian R1b-Z2103. It seems Reich also thinks the same. At least this is my understanding of this quote from the Southern Arc paper:
    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself.
    The second wave of R1b-Z2103 into the Near East probably arrived with the Iranics from Central Asia in the Iron Age. Lurs and Talysh, both Iranics, have about 25-40% of R1b-Z2103.

    ---

    It it still possible that there is R1b-M269 in an unadmixed (before 6000BC) CHG/Iran populations but I think the chances of finding it are rather small. An unadmixed CHG/Iran population that also went into the Eneolithic Steppe gene pool was likely J1 and J2, since there is already J1 far north in Khavlynsk. There has to be more J1 and J2 in places further south, closer to the Caucasus, Lower Don and Lower Volga might be the places to search for this southern signal. R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 could be assimilated haplogroups that survived over the long run. Anyway, let's wait for the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Nah there was civilisation in Europe thousands of years before then.
    With a state (centralized or city-state), with cities, laws, writing? Where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    There is zero evidence that it was ever used by other peoples as an ethnonym.


    The term Aryan is used by Herodotus to refer to the Medes as an ethnonym before they adopted the latter as a replacement.

    He writes:

    Μῆδοι δὲ τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην ἐσταλμένοι ἐστρατεύοντο· Μηδικὴ γὰρ αὕτη ἡ σκευή ἐστι καὶ οὐ Περσική. οἱ δὲ Μῆδοι ἄρχοντα μὲν παρείχοντο Τιγράνην ἄνδρα Ἀχαιμενίδην, ἐκαλέοντο δὲ πάλαι πρὸς πάντων Ἄριοι, ἀπικομένης δὲ Μηδείης τῆς Κολχίδος ἐξ Ἀθηνέων ἐς τοὺς Ἀρίους τούτους μετέβαλον καὶ οὗτοι τὸ οὔνομα. αὐτοὶ περὶ σφέων ὧδε λέγουσι Μῆδοι.
    Translation (mine):

    The Medes took part in this (military) excursion carrying the same gear, this gear being Medean (in origin) and not Persian. Medes had as a leader one Tigranis, from the Achaemenids, the old times the world referring to them as Aryans, but when Medea, of Colchian origin, arrived from Athens into the lands of the Aryans, they changed their name. This is what they, the Medes, tell us about themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You continue to display knowledge based on platitudes and commonplaces.

    You're entitled to your opinion.
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just_a_Common_Guy View Post
    a) R1b comes from Upper Paleolithic Siberians (Ancestral North Eurasians or just ANE), R1b where present in some Tarim Basin early mummies (90% ANE ancestry). Native Americans and native Siberians are the present-day people more close to the ANE.
    b) It's a paper of 2012 and talks about PRESENT-DAY Y haplogroups, not ancient ones. But even if R1b was present in ancient Assyrians, it could be due from neolithic Iranians (they had ANE admixture).
    I0443-L23 Displaced all in Khvanysk including ydna R1a.


    Srubnya R1a Z93 was totally displaced not only from its northern sphere but also from Sintashta and Arkaim. There are only a few scattered remnants. Sintashta was supposed advanced chariot warrior society. Nothing remains of it, and like the Assyrians R1b-Z2103 has expanded population aka Bashkirs. Sintashta Arkaim are in top right hand corner of map.



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    @eupator

    That's exactly what I wrote, see "Iranics", this includes Medes. Old Persians/Medes regularly referred to themselves as "Aryans".For example in Naqsch-e Rostam Darius the Great proclaimed
    "I am Dariush, great King... a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, of Aryan stock."
    The wikipedia article is informative as well:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Absolutey right, Angela, I am always bewildered when people refer to the PIE people as "Aryans". The term is only used in scientific debate when referring to the Indo-Iranians, Indo-Aryans and/or Iranics. There is zero evidence that it was ever used by other peoples as an ethnonym.

    My understanding regarding R1b-Z2103 in the Near East is that it arrived in two waves. First in the 3rd millennium BC with fleeing tribes from the steppe looking for refuge in the Southern Caucasus because Abashevo-culture was pushing into the steppe and largely replaced Yamnaya/Catacomb. This first wave is probably related to Assyrian and Armenian R1b-Z2103. It seems Reich also thinks the same. At least this is my understanding of this quote from the Southern Arc paper:


    The second wave of R1b-Z2103 into the Near East probably arrived with the Iranics from Central Asia in the Iron Age. Lurs and Talysh, both Iranics, have about 25-40% of R1b-Z2103.

    ---

    It it still possible that there is R1b-M269 in an unadmixed (before 6000BC) CHG/Iran populations but I think the chances of finding it are rather small. An unadmixed CHG/Iran population that also went into the Eneolithic Steppe gene pool was likely J1 and J2, since there is already J1 far north in Khavlynsk. There has to be more J1 and J2 in places further south, closer to the Caucasus, Lower Don and Lower Volga might be the places to search for this southern signal. R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 could be assimilated haplogroups that survived over the long run. Anyway, let's wait for the paper.
    R1b-Z2103 not only expanded in ancient warlike Hittite/Assyrian/Iranian/Greek(Southern Arc EF regions) it also has more descendants in Ossetia than R1a(I count 3 modern day samples). The R1b-in Ossetia are related to original early Sarmatian samples and Albanians(Y5586).
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Basques and Bashkirs also carry large numbers of R1b and they don't speak IE languages.

    Etruscan data also show a similar situation (R1b but no IE). Ancient Greeks spoke IE but no R1b so far, maybe Southern Arc will provide some?

    The relation between the spread of IE and R1b is not yet clear cut.
    One R1b sample was found in classical Greece (unpublished), according to the video below by a Dr. Nikolaos Psonis (at about the 15 minute mark), as well as various mtDNA.

    https://youtu.be/HGKZKoH4yv0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Absolutey right, Angela, I am always bewildered when people refer to the PIE people as "Aryans". The term is only used in scientific debate when referring to the Indo-Iranians, Indo-Aryans and/or Iranics. There is zero evidence that it was ever used by other peoples as an ethnonym.

    My understanding regarding R1b-Z2103 in the Near East is that it arrived in two waves. First in the 3rd millennium BC with fleeing tribes from the steppe looking for refuge in the Southern Caucasus because Abashevo-culture was pushing into the steppe and largely replaced Yamnaya/Catacomb. This first wave is probably related to Assyrian and Armenian R1b-Z2103. It seems Reich also thinks the same. At least this is my understanding of this quote from the Southern Arc paper:


    The second wave of R1b-Z2103 into the Near East probably arrived with the Iranics from Central Asia in the Iron Age. Lurs and Talysh, both Iranics, have about 25-40% of R1b-Z2103.

    ---

    It it still possible that there is R1b-M269 in an unadmixed (before 6000BC) CHG/Iran populations but I think the chances of finding it are rather small. An unadmixed CHG/Iran population that also went into the Eneolithic Steppe gene pool was likely J1 and J2, since there is already J1 far north in Khavlynsk. There has to be more J1 and J2 in places further south, closer to the Caucasus, Lower Don and Lower Volga might be the places to search for this southern signal. R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 could be assimilated haplogroups that survived over the long run. Anyway, let's wait for the paper.
    Excellent post. Sorry I'm out of juice. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I don't know about intelligence genes, however to build a solid wheel to go 1000+km or a spoked wheel, would take a good craftsman.
    As for the culture of farming, and EF Near Eastern genes,and high density living, king Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines a different style. Even though most kurgans are R1b-Z2108 there are kurgans with females. And perhaps this movie was made with Alan-Sarmatian Z-2108 females in mind
    http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/artl/sarmatian.shtml



    Silesian, this post makes absolutely NO SENSE. Are you quite all right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Silesian, this post makes absolutely NO SENSE. Are you quite all right?
    I'm feeling great, thanks. Womens rights are an interesting comparison between steppe and Arc region- EF farming. I feel sorry for women who had to live in a harem; better to have freedom on the steppe as warrior, how do you feel about it?
    On a side note I remembered when Germans used to say Slavs were dirty/filth and smelled bad, uncivilized heathen. Is that a form of hygenic profiling I don't know, why do people judge others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Basques and Bashkirs also carry large numbers of R1b and they don't speak IE languages.

    Etruscan data also show a similar situation (R1b but no IE). Ancient Greeks spoke IE but no R1b so far, maybe Southern Arc will provide some?

    The relation between the spread of IE and R1b is not yet clear cut.
    bashkirs are the remnants of very old wars/kidnapping etc etc same goes for the all the R1B among central asians. myceneans also had some steppe admixture while apparently the indo european anatolians did not yet ancient greek supposed to come from there...

    the steppe people were the horse and cart folk, meaning their language could have became a lingua franca of sorts.

    The group with highest degree of J2 is the ingushetians yet their language tree is neither related to indo european or semitic languages.

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    i wonder when are those 3 papers of the Southern Arc will be finally published
    i asked david reich in email
    he didn't answere
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    [QUOTE=Angela;653422]

    So am I, RE, whether you mean the steppe people or the Celts and Germanics, just as you are a descendant of the civilized core people of "Old Europe". No offense is intended, but I notice a "forgetfulness" in some northern Europeans that many of them, especially in northwestern and Central Europe, are 40-50% Anatolian Neolithic like through admixture by the steppe people with people of the "civilized core" in "Old Europe". Even the Balts have a significant amount of Anatolian Neo. Then there's the Iran Neo like ancestry in steppe people, varying by area, of course. We're all a mash up of the same groups, RE, just in different proportions.


    I referred to myself as the descendant of the "Barbarians" because you brought up the Barbarians at the Gate and their predatory nature.



    ................

    As was pointed out by a later post, Rome initially fought defensive wars, but yes, it eventually became an empire seeking expansion, an expansion that was sometimes to protect its trade routes(Etruria and Greece), or for grain (Egypt), and other raw materials, for a very simplistic summary of its wars. Then it became about reaching defensible borders.
    The thing is in the eyes of the Romans, ALL of their wars were defensive and thus legitimate. Hence they justified their wars either with self-defense, protecting and avenging friends, and punishing wrongs, etc. For example, when exactly did the Persian or Parthian Empire threaten, declare war on or tried to attack and invade Rome when Caesar, Crassus, or Antonius planned a military campaign against them? The truth of the matter is some wars of Rome were rather defensive and others not so much. The more wealthy and powerful the Romans became, the more capable they were of further expanding their Empire. Romans were not satisfied with conquering only land near to them. They realized that land further away might also have riches in them that would make Rome even more wealthy. Once again glory and honor were extremely important in Rome. Hence, to me, it's not entirely convincing that Rome's wars were all defensive and that Rome became accidentally a great Empire by being busy defending itself.


    As someone pointed out, that's actually an Etruscan symbol.

    Well, there is a controversy around the She-wolf.

    "We know that the She-wolf embodies the story of Rome’s founding, but the statue’s origins are not so widely known. Originally, the She-wolf was recognized as an Etruscan statue, meaning that it was made in the early part of the 5th century BC."


    https://emarlowe.colgate.domains/arts101/student-posts/the-capitoline-she-wolf-who-am-i-and-where-do-i-come-from/


    This specific statue of a She-wolf may well be of Etruscan origin. Nevertheless, a She-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus is definitely a Latin/Roman folklore and as far as I know not an Etruscan myth. Or did I miss something, and Romulus and Remus are Etruscan mythological figures? Furthermore, Mars, the God of war is not just the Greek version of Ares. There is the tendency to deny the Latins/Romans anything of their own- they either got it from the Etruscans or from the Greeks, people say.



    So, I by no means believe that "Old Europe", for example, was a peaceful paradise, a la Gimbutas. We have evidence of warfare which occurred in times of scarcity, for example, which makes sense given the nature of all human beings.

    However, can you deny that the balance in favor of a mythology of war and conquest is higher in steppe culture? Don't some in the amateur pop gen community admire the steppe people specifically because they were a war-like people who claimed to be superior to other groups and therefore entitled to conquer them, slaughter those who needed to be slaughtered, enslave the rest, and take all the women for themselves?


    The same is true for history. When looking at certain periods, states in conflict, it's often not a question of black and white, good versus evil, but shades of grey. Look at World War I. I studied it in great depth at university and after, and it was a senseless war where there were "only" shades of grey
    Agreeing completely.


    I also think it's undeniable that as empires go, Rome was a pretty good one, and not just because of the Monty Python list of the advancements it brought to conquered peoples. :)

    Despite your implication that Rome too was "racist" or, shall we make up a word and call it "ethnicist", that isn't true in any way that affected the real lives of the people in the Roman world. If you accepted the conquest and paid your taxes, usually to your old headman, your people weren't slaughtered, and even if you resisted, everybody wasn't enslaved, all the women weren't taken for the Latin-Romans etc. Everything went on as before. With time, non-Latins or Italics of any kind could acquire property, honors, eventually become accepted into the Equestrian Order, become Senators, or go the military route, enlist, and eventually become generals and even Emperors. With time, anyone living in the Empire became a Roman citizen and could aspire to any office.
    Where did I indicate or allude to that Rome was racist? The Romans certainly believed in their own superiority over basically everybody, they were crystal clear about it in their own written records. Anyway, the Romans were xenophobic rather than outright racist. Plus I literally wrote that is better to be conquered by the Romans than by many other people.


    Yes, slavery is one of the absolute evils imo, but tell me which state or kingdom or group of people DIDN'T practice it in the ancient world? Did the Gauls whom the Romans conquered not practice slavery and fight wars for land or booty? Why else did they fight the Etruscans in north-central Italy and sack the city of Rome itself? What about the Britons or the Germani? What, as a matter of fact, about the Lombards and what they did to the "Romans" they conquered, or the Anglo-Saxons and the way they treated the Britons, or the Vikings? Wasn't most of the wealth of the latter from the slave trade they ran all over Europe? The Lombard and AS Laws make very interesting reading.

    It always amazes me when Northern Europeans bemoan the slavery of the Roman Empire without ever mentioning any of that. Slavery was, unfortunately, the NORM in the ancient world. At least under the Romans you could escape it through manumission or buying your freedom, and rising as high in society as your abilities would dictate.

    Slavery was indeed the norm in most cultures. However, the scale of slavery in Rome was on another level compared to, for instance, in Germanic societies. It's believed that 2/3 of the Roman population were slaves.

    Btw, slavery in Ancient Rome isn't really bemoaned but mostly the transatlantic slave trade.


    Here's a article about slavery in Germanic society.

    "Germanic tribes in dealing with their slaves, says that they treated them neither to chain nor to forced labor and killed them rather in a fit of anger' than from inclination toward cruelty."

    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...10.1086/250761


    The thing is, that enslaved people no matter where deserve their suffering to be acknowledged. If you ask me these
    Roman slaves from present-day France and Britain were rightfully bemoaning their enslavement and I feel for them. Even in death, these enslaved unfortunates were shackled and with their iron color around their necks, they couldn't escape their chains untill their last breath.

    May they soul rest peace and they run free.


    "Roman slaves are unearthed . . . still with their iron collars and shackles in place." One of the slaves was a shackled child.







    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...st-France.html


    Shackled skeleton discovered by workmen building a home extension in Rutland is of a Roman slave who was thrown in a ditch 1,800 years ago and is an 'internationally significant' find





    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...d-Rutland.html


    I'm sorry, but I think it is "your" view of the past, and that of those who post similar opinions, which is romanticized and doesn't comport with the facts of the situation.
    Why? Because I don't see all the good on the side of the so-called civilized people and all the bad on the Barbarian side?


    My God, the Nazi Empire of what, eighty to ninety years ago, slaughtered millions of people in a war of conquest, not just to get territories which contained German minorities but for "lebensraum", land to breathe, or land needed for natural development, and not just Jews and gypsies and the infirm or deficient, but many Eastern Europeans. In Poland they decimated most of their elites and officer corps, and subjected the rest to virtual slavery. The plan was to completely exterminate all Slavic peoples.......
    Nowhere did I compare the Romans to the Nazis but I was rather trying to demonstrate that the Romans were pretty much comparable to Steppe people in terms of their expansionism and warlike behavior. That's all.









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