David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Jovialis]

depends on the region. can you specify what non-trivial means? iranians do not have non-trivial amounts of SSA for example imo. and i guess it is similar with turks, armenians, kurds, iraqis. the Natufian component also differs depending on region. i mean, some people will certainly try to clutch at every straw they can get doesn't change that EHG/WHG were always on the receiving end.
and WHG/EHG certainly are the main factors for variation between europe and populations of the near east. if we look at most pca's for westeurasian populations a WHG/EHG-like admixture describes very often one of the principal components.

Maybe like 5-10 %? I'd personally say "trivial" is something that is trace amounts. Egyptians and some Yemenites have a pretty respectable amount of SSA.

 

[Jovialis]

^^Some groups like Druze, BedouinB, and many middle eastern Jews look like they don't have any.

 

[Angela]

Silesian;653216]I'm only interested in R1b in Corded Ware. So far there are L51+ , Z2109+, V1636+(single grave).

No Dom2 horses have been found in Corded Ware.

However we can list the ancient R1b cultural samples.

Yamnaya- Z2109+ and L23+https://amtdb.org/sample/I0443
Wagons, Copper smelting, copper metallurgy(https://www.researchgate.net/public...ogenesis_of_'Dniester_CopperBronze_Metallurgy'), tanged copper daggers Dom2 horses-Turganik, Elshanka pottery, Kurgans and Kurgan-Stele
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernosovskiy_idol

We're discussing COPPER metallurgy, Silesian, and not of the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker steppe admixed people wo entered Central Europe. Please pay particular attention to the date:
"This ought to be related to alater chronology, to that of a‘late pit grave’ phase, which in the middle drainage basin of the Dniester is dated to 2650-2500 BC."



Also, there is this:
"The objects from the Ivonivka Hoard (Fig. 1: 2) are one of akind; it is the rst
discovery of such and of ametal tool from the early Bronze Age in the north-
ern Black Sea Region. The artefacts from the hoard (Fig. 1: 3, 4) have asimilar
form to that of Eneolithic ‘Usatovo’ and ‘Maykop’ at axe-adzes in the Anatolia
tradition, though diering signicantly in their smaller dimensions, though among
‘Maykop’ samples there also occur similarly small products."

This is not original work, but rather copies, and the rest of the paper suggests to me they were made either in Maykop or in Cucuteni/Tripolye or were copies of work produced in those areas.

"Similar, at axe-adzes are also known in Maykop culture in the northern
Caucasus [Chernykh 1966] (Fig. 8). Usatovo products fashioned out of arsenic
bronze, Anatolia type, are considered to be the oldest products fashioned out of
bronze in the northern Black Sea area [Ryndina, Konkova 1982]. The hoard from
the Loshniv site, which in all probability belongs to the Gordineşti group, late Tri-
polye culture, demonstrates that arsenic bronzes of the Anatolia type are becoming
widespread from the second half of the 4th mill. BC in the entire Dniester drainage
basin as far as its northern course."

"The tradition of processing arsenic bronze during the decline Tripolye culture
(Usatovo arsenic bronzes and those from the site of the ‘Loshniv Hoard’) is also
continued in the Dniester Region during the early Bronze Age. This is testied to
not only by the adze from the ‘Ivonivka Hoard’ (Fig. 1, 3; an. nr 1329), but also
‘guards’ serving as reinforcers in the wooden handle of the stone mace from the
inhumation grave of the Catacomb culture, Prydnistryanske.

Surely you see that you've made my points for me? The steppe people of the Pontic steppe were either trading for these goods, or allowing "foreign" craftsmen to mine and shape their ores, or they were copying from a tradition not their own, one which didn't develop organically on the steppe.

For some of this material there is no date, no description, no citation, so I won't comment.

Bell Beakers-Z2109+L51 Tanged copper daggers, possible connection to horses. Possible red hair- Blogger-Genetiker [FONT=var(--main-font)]I7044-[/FONT]Beaker[FONT=var(--main-font)], 2500-2200 BCE R1b-Z2109+ Blond/ D-blond- Blue eyes I2787-[/FONT]Bell Beaker[FONT=var(--main-font)]-Hungary,2457-2201-Light skin, [/FONT]Red hair.
Szigetszentmiklós Cemetery (Santa's Six Foot Elves)
https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html

For the umpteenth time, Silesian, the steppe couldn't have given the Bell Beakers blonde hair, red hair, light skin or blue eyes, because first you have to possess the alleles. They didn't have them. They were darker than any modern Europeans.

Only after mixing with Central European farmers did these traits appear among them.

As to your link to the Bell Beaker burial site, it also supports what I said about the culture and technology of the steppe people who entered Central Europe: no or exceedingly few metals, no or very few horses and not of the type expected, and altogether very poor graves indeed.

 

[Jovialis]

We're friends with a Jewish couple, the husband is Ashkenazi, the wife is an Iraqi Jew. She has light features, like blue-ish eyes, and light skin; she could pass in Europe.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

RealExpert: Regarding post 595 and others where you cite geocurrents. I took a look at those articles and they are for the most part dated from around 2012. Regarding the "Anatolian" vs. "Kurgan Hypothesis" relative to the Southern Arc that Reich and his research team are going to address in this upcoming paper with 731 new ancient genomes, it seems to me they are suggesting that the "Armenian Hypothesis" is the the best candidate for the PIE language homeland. It seemed that before the Jones et al 2015 paper "Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians" there was the thinking that the Caucus mountains were a barrier to migration thus genetic admixture. Thus, the Kurgan hypothesis which I think everyone agrees now based on the evidence was the main way IE language spread from the Steppes to the West in Europe via Yamnaya and Corded ware vs. the Anatolian which basically started with ancient Hittite being the oldest or earlier IE language that IE spread from Anatolia to Europe and from Anatolia East to Iran then to India. So my reading of this is that while the evidence supports the Kurgan Hypothesis that the bulk of IE languages spread into Europe from the Steppes, that does not mean definitively that the PIE homeland was those same steppes. So I think the Kurgan hypothesis still explains the movement of IE from the Steppes to Europe rather than the Anatolian positing that IE went from Anatolia into Europe.

Armenian is a very old IE language and seems from what I picked up is closely related to both Greek and Indo-Iranian. Armenia the country is also a somewhat of a genetic isolate per Haber et al 2015 "Genetic evidence for an origin of the Armeniansfrom Bronze Age mixing of multiple populations" which suggest that by 1200 BC todays Armenians overlap with that population. That paper also found that about 29% of Armenian DNA is from EEF populations showing a closer affinity with European populations than other West Asian groups and is a cluster linking Caucuses, Near East and Europe. In addition, per Maciamo's article, Armenians also have about 30% R1b lineages. Now, I know some people get overly focused on Y haplogroups first then autosomal, I tend to focus more an autosomal admixture. So I will freely admit I do not know how the Armenian sub-clades of R1b fit relative to the Yamnaya and R1b-M269 (and sub-clades from it) which is often associated with the spread of IE into Europe. So the Caucus Mountains not being a barrier for movement of CHG type ancestry North would also mean EHG could have come South. But it seems there is more CHG in the Yamnaya than EHG in Armenians (just a hunch, I could be wrong). Maybe Reich's analysis will show Bronze Age Armenians did not have substantial EHG ancestry which suggest that there was not a major move from North of the Caucuses into South of the Caucuses. On the other hand, we already have consistent evidence of CHG moving North through the Caucuses admixing with EHG in the Steppes, along with some residual EEF ancestry to form Yamnaya. The abstract does indicate though Yamnaya moving into Armenia (so some EHG likely) as well so this does clearly show a movement both directions across the Caucuses. But which one was first South to North or North to South?

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206

So since Armenian is an IE language closely related to ancient Greek and Indo-Iranian, a PIE there easily explains its connection with Indo-Iranian and also could explain how IE moved from Armenia and Northern Iran into the Hittites in Central/Western Anatolia. Of course I think having ancient Genomes from the ancient Hittites would also go along way to help clarify the situation. A movement from Armenia to the Steppes can add additional support to the Armenian Hypothesis since research since Jones et al 2015 shows significant CHG ancestry from Georgia moving from South to North of Caucus Mountains to the Steppes.

From the Steppes, then the Kurgan Hypothesis shows the movement of IE from the Yamnaya and Corded Ware into most of Europe, but ancient Greek could have been strongly influenced by a spread of IE language from the Armenian highlands/Northern Iran through Anatolia (Hittite, etc) given the Myceneans we have seen so far lack significant Steppe ancestry per Lazaridis et al 2014. Of course, ancient Greek languages could have been influenced by movements from the Steppe as well, but there does seem to be a link between Armenian and Indo Iranian and Greek.

Prof. Reich alluded to the "Armenian Hypothesis" (possibly Northern Iran, which borders Armenia) as likely source of PIE in his 2018 book "Who we are and how we got here" in a section entitled "The origin of Indo-European languages, pp.117-121). I think I read where Prof. David Anthony originally argued against the Armenian Hypothesis as the PIE homeland and still favors The Steppes as not only the major source of the spread of IE, but also the PIE homeland. Prof. Reich in that same section also clearly states the Yamnaya were largely responsible for the spread of IE from the Steppes to Europe but he was formulating the Armenian Hypothesis back in 2018 as the source for this Southern arc so to speak, not the Anatolian Hypothesis.

In closing, while I find this question interesting from a research perspective, I as I stated in an earlier thread, have no emotional attachment to whether the PIE homeland is South of the Caucuses or North of them.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

The article is not out yet, I know we can only speculate. Speculating: if PIE entered the steppe from the south: how to explain the dominance of YDNA R1b/R1a in the steppe? Could language have entered through female ancestry? I think that the Basque language remained because it was perhaps the language that mothers kept speaking to their children. I'm sorry if the question is stupid.

No, it is by no means a stupid question, on the contrary, if the PIE entered from the south, I think this is the most logical explanation: it was the women of the Caucasus/Iran who introduced it to the steppe.

 

[kingjohn]

I'm only interested in R1b in Corded Ware. So far there are L51+ , Z2109+, V1636+(single grave).
No Dom2 horses have been found in Corded Ware.
However we can list the ancient R1b cultural samples.
Yamnaya- Z2109+ and L23+https://amtdb.org/sample/I0443
Wagons, Copper smelting, copper metallurgy(https://www.researchgate.net/public...ogenesis_of_'Dniester_CopperBronze_Metallurgy'), tanged copper daggers Dom2 horses-Turganik, Elshanka pottery, Kurgans and Kurgan-Stele
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernosovskiy_idol

Afanasievo-Z21o9+L51+Copper-Gold-Silver-Iron(earings) Wagons, horse remains- not tested(Dom2?).
Poltavka-Z2109+
Catacombe-Z2109+ Copper, Bronze,Iron advanced wagons, Dom2(40) horses single burial?.
Corded Ware-Z2103(9?)L51+ No Dom2, no iron
Bell Beakers-Z2109+L51 Tanged copper daggers, possible connection to horses. Possible red hair- Blogger-Genetiker [FONT=var(--main-font)]I7044-[/FONT]Beaker[FONT=var(--main-font)], 2500-2200 BCE R1b-Z2109+ Blond/ D-blond- Blue eyes I2787-[/FONT]Bell Beaker[FONT=var(--main-font)]-Hungary,2457-2201-Light skin, [/FONT]Red hair.
Szigetszentmiklós Cemetery (Santa's Six Foot Elves)
https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html
Vucedol I3499 / M R1b-Z2103?
Potopovka-Z2109+
Sintashta-Z2109+
Latins-L51+Z2103+
Steppe-Sarmatians-Z2109+
Roman Sarmatian mercenary-(Alan?) Z2109+
Armenian-Z2106+
Iranian-Hajji Firuzz-Z2103+

Since you are interested in r1b
New papericts dna
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.01.502257v1
The male is r1b-L52

 

[Er Monnezza]

I1584, West Anatolia sample dating to 3820 BC may have Steppe ancestry derived from the Southern Arc (around Armenia), which in turn was derived from the Steppes to the north.

Target: TUR_Barcin_C:I1584___BC_3820___Coverage_83.74%
Distance: 0.0277% / 0.02765814 | R2P
56.2 TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018___BC_5566___Coverage_52.45%
43.8 ARM_Areni_C:I1407___BC_3925___Coverage_67.46%

Target: TUR_Barcin_C:I1584___BC_3820___Coverage_83.74%
Distance: 0.0226% / 0.02262274 | R3P
39.0 ARM_Areni_C:I1407___BC_3925___Coverage_67.46%
36.2 HRV_Cardial_N:I3948___BC_5913___Coverage_65.54%
24.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516___Coverage_59.59%

Target: TUR_Barcin_C:I1584___BC_3820___Coverage_83.74%
Distance: 0.0198% / 0.01977544 | R4P
47.1 HRV_Sopot_MN:I5077___BC_5051___Coverage_72.20%
25.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674___BC_3881___Coverage_53.35%
20.1 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516___Coverage_59.59%
7.8 RUS_Progress_En: PG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%

 

[MOESAN]

Yes, well, problem is that IBD analyses doesn't show Italian or Iberian ancestry in Ashkenazim. What shows up is a nice dose of Slavic.

Don't think it's ever been done with Sephardic Jews or Moroccan Jews. I would think perhaps some Iberian would show up, at least. Would be interesting to see someone attempt it.

I think without too much risks that Ashkenazim and Sephardic Jews stories are not very close since long ago. I read somewhere that during the Middle Ages a lot of Poles converted themselves to Judaism. I don't know how this is has been made according to the Judaism rules? ATW the weight of supplementary ancestry among Ashkenazim seems rather eastern than southwestern in their late part of history.

 

[MOESAN]

Since you are interested in r1b
New papericts dna
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.01.502257v1
The male is r1b-L52

Thanks. Seems a very important paper. Helas I can only have the abstract.
It deserves a special thread.

 

[Angela]

I think without too much risks that Ashkenazim and Sephardic Jews stories are not very close since long ago. I read somewhere that during the Middle Ages a lot of Poles converted themselves to Judaism. I don't know how this is has been made according to the Judaism rules? ATW the weight of supplementary ancestry among Ashkenazim seems rather eastern than southwestern in their late part of history.

They actually overlap, Moesan, although some Askenazim are north of them.

What pulls Moroccan Jews away a bit is that they have some Berber and a bit of SSA, although much less than the Muslim North Africans as to the latter.

As to how they picked up their 10-15% "Slavic" in some cases, the speculation is that when they fled to the Kingdom of Lithuania from the pogroms of the Crusader Era in eastern France and Germany, some of the tribes in the area were still pagans, and therefore the women were converted and married. That was a crime punishable by death according to Christian authorities, so it does seem like a plausible idea.

The R1a present among Jews, and particularly among Levites, is the "Asian" type, and therefore probably absorbed in the Middle East imo.

The relative scarcity of "Slavic" markers among the Ashkenazim surprised me a bit given what we know happened to Jewish women during pogroms, including Cossack raids. However, I believe Jewish law permits termination of the pregnancy until the child "quickens", so perhaps that was a response to those pogroms. It happened a lot in Europe during the Nazi era and afterwards, even though it was prohibited by the Church and State.

 

[kingjohn]

Thanks. Seems a very important paper. Helas I can only have the abstract.
It deserves a special thread.

press on download pdf option in the left in red colour
it is a pre-print when it will published officially
yes you should start a thread about it indeed

 

[Angela]

No, it is by no means a stupid question, on the contrary, if the PIE entered from the south, I think this is the most logical explanation: it was the women of the Caucasus/Iran who introduced it to the steppe.

That, or the "J" men on the steppe, like the sample found in Karelia, and some found more recently, although the location escapes me (perhaps someone can provide a link to them and give us the specific location), suffered from the extreme y lineage extinction typical of the steppe.

Sounds like a hell hole of constant fighting to the death to me.

Anyway, so much for Davidski's promise that no "J" or south of the Caucasus y lines would be found on the steppe.

 

[Ricardo]

J1 is extremely important in the PIE steppe expansion
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...lian-Y-DNA-J1b?p=609478&viewfull=1#post609478

Since 2009 I discovered the association of some specific J1 clades with the Iranian expansion, first we won the Medieval war in Iberia and Portugal and now we are going to win the Bronze Age war in the Caspian Sea again !

 

[Stuvanè]

That, or the "J" men on the steppe, like the sample found in Karelia, and some found more recently, although the location escapes me (perhaps someone can provide a link to them and give us the specific location), suffered from the extreme y lineage extinction typical of the steppe.

Sounds like a hell whole of constant fighting to the death to me.

Anyway, so much for Davidski's promise that no "J" or south of the Caucasus y lines would be found on the steppe.

This could be useful

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...uSLg2wQws2cvvUHpeATRMNmkJJ2fjNAdH4tnXmxKa00mM

 

[Moja]

Armenian is a very old IE language and seems from what I picked up is closely related to both Greek and Indo-Iranian.

The closest language to Armenian is Celtic, for example debuccalization of PIE *p just happened in Armenian and Celtic, the main reason is that Armenians are neighbors of Gilaki people.

The Persian word for son is pur/purika, it is cognate with Armenian ordi, in Gilaki rika/roki has the same meaning, it can be compared to Welsh rhocyn: https://www.gweiadur.com/cy/welsh-dictionary/rhocyn

Almost all non-Iranian words in Gilaki language have Celtic origin, just look at them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_language The Gilaki word for girl is kilka/kilak, you can't find any similar word in the Iranian languages, compare it to Scottish Gaelic caileag, or Gilaki word for hen is kerk, compare it to Scottish Gaelic cearc, I have found more than 800 similar words in Gilaki and Gaelic languages.

 

[spruithean]

The closest language to Armenian is Celtic, for example debuccalization of PIE *p just happened in Armenian and Celtic, the main reason is that Armenians are neighbors of Gilaki people.
The Persian word for son is pur/purika, it is cognate with Armenian ordi, in Gilaki rika/roki has the same meaning, it can be compared to Welsh rhocyn: https://www.gweiadur.com/cy/welsh-dictionary/rhocyn
Almost all non-Iranian words in Gilaki language have Celtic origin, just look at them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_language The Gilaki word for girl is kilka/kilak, you can't find any similar word in the Iranian languages, compare it to Scottish Gaelic caileag, or Gilaki word for hen is kerk, compare it to Scottish Gaelic cearc, I have found more than 800 similar words in Gilaki and Gaelic languages.

Absolute nonsense. These are unsubstantiated claims.

Matter of fact, how are sock accounts like this of previously banned members who trolled the forums still permitted on this forum?

 

[Angela]

This could be useful

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...uSLg2wQws2cvvUHpeATRMNmkJJ2fjNAdH4tnXmxKa00mM

Yes, that's what I remember. Thank you.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

The closest language to Armenian is Celtic, for example debuccalization of PIE *p just happened in Armenian and Celtic, the main reason is that Armenians are neighbors of Gilaki people.
The Persian word for son is pur/purika, it is cognate with Armenian ordi, in Gilaki rika/roki has the same meaning, it can be compared to Welsh rhocyn: https://www.gweiadur.com/cy/welsh-dictionary/rhocyn
Almost all non-Iranian words in Gilaki language have Celtic origin, just look at them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_language The Gilaki word for girl is kilka/kilak, you can't find any similar word in the Iranian languages, compare it to Scottish Gaelic caileag, or Gilaki word for hen is kerk, compare it to Scottish Gaelic cearc, I have found more than 800 similar words in Gilaki and Gaelic languages.

I don't think so, I think Celtic is closer to both Germanic and Italic. Armenian is closer to Iranian to its immediate Southeast and Anatolian branches to its immediate West. It would be closer to both Albanian and Greek vs. Celtic. But there are lots of different flowcharts/trees out there.

I for the most part have tended to not wade into these PIE homeland debates. But after re-reading Prof. Reichs "Who we are.." (2018) and his pointing to the Armenian Hypothesis to explain the PIE, I have done some reading up on some journal papers regarding Armenian and it from what I read is its own branch of IE language and as I stated, closer to Indo-Iranian and Greek.

Anyway this paper by Martirosyan who is an Armenian Linguist and teaches Language and Armenian culture at UCLA clearly shows just by reading the text that Armenian closer with Indo-Iranian and Greek.

https://www.jolr.ru/files/(128)jlr2013-10(85-138).pdf

I took a look at his wiki page and all of his research is on the Armenian language. Perhaps you can email him and tell him he is wrong.

 

[Ailchu]

Maybe like 5-10 %? I'd personally say "trivial" is something that is trace amounts. Egyptians and some Yemenites have a pretty respectable amount of SSA.

Palestinians would have trivial amounts already and going further up north it decreases further. in populations like Armenians it is probably non-existent and they are currently not really accepted into the club by european supremacists eitherway. in the end they are somehow going to twist it to their liking, just ignoring all the holes in their theories. for all the others it would just be another example of how influental the near eastern region was for the cultural development of europe.