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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Peaceful people can primarily live in isolation or as a subjugated entity, which is not fully independent and under the control and/or protection of another, more warlike people. Warfare is in human nature, we already see it in chimpanzees.
    .
    Chimpanzee can be very aggressive to their own, they even hunt down weaker monkeys and eat them. Bonobos related to Chimpanzee, are very different in nature. I always heard studies of when food run's out in a city (dense population)that human instinct turns violent very fast. The typical grocery store has to be replenished with food very frequently. I wondered if people in s big city would ever turn to cannibalism if food was not provided.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Chimpanzee can be very aggressive to their own, they even hunt down weaker monkeys and eat them. Bonobos related to Chimpanzee, are very different in nature. I always heard studies of when food run's out in a city (dense population)that human instinct turns violent very fast. The typical grocery store has to be replenished with food very frequently. I wondered if people in s big city would ever turn to cannibalism if food was not provided.
    They'd probably move to the country and raise their own food which i've been doing for years. My family moved to the US (Wyoming) from Greece (where they were self sustainable mountain folks in the Peloponnese) in the early 1900's and have a tradition of hunting, fishing, raising our own food (veggies). I guess we're a part of the farming tradition. I would suggest more folks do that.

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    If the Steppe people were pastoralists didn't they sort of combine herding with farming. Farmers, I would guess, were herders as well. What you see (less so now than 30 years ago) historically in mountain communities of the Balkans;Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria are folks who are essentially farmers/pastoralists so I would assume that at some point these traditions fused rather than collided.

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    When we talk about major migrations there should be an important reason for it, 5,000 years ago there was a huge lake in the north central Iran where there is already a huge desert.



    https://www.openquaternary.com/articles/10.5334/oq.94/

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    If the Steppe people were pastoralists didn't they sort of combine herding with farming. Farmers, I would guess, were herders as well. What you see (less so now than 30 years ago) historically in mountain communities of the Balkans;Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria are folks who are essentially farmers/pastoralists so I would assume that at some point these traditions fused rather than collided.
    The steppe itself was not conducive to farming. Some steppe people tried it, but it really only worked right around the rivers. There was no large scale farming on the steppe, just herding of domesticated animals they got from farmer societies, and, of course, the horse.

    Keeping this to the topic of the thread, one of my questions does indeed relate to farming and domesticated animals on the steppe. IF the original homeland was in some area south of the Caucasus, was it after the domestication of animals that they moved north unto the steppe, and they brought them with them, and didn't buy them from the farmers of "Old Europe"? Did they also bring the knowledge of farming, and does that explain the attempts at farming in the river valleys? Or, was it even further back in time.

    I also really want to see, along with some dating, the y Dna of those first Anatolian I.E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    There are some people of European background usually that like to present Indoeuropeans as 'warlike' but 'pre-indo-Europeans' or non-Indpoeuropeans as 'peaceful' or weak in one way or another etc. The truth is most IE groups at least seemed to have been generally 'warlike' but many other non-IE groups are presented as warlike too.

    Indeed, this is the idea held by some German Nazi and Italian fascist thinkers of the early decades of the 20th century. They are not even worth mentioning. The idea of the 'Nordic' Romans (with all the positive qualities that are implied) set against the 'Middle Eastern' Etruscans (peaceful, weak, corrupt, devoted to the futile pleasures of life). As kingjohn said, this is propaganda.

    It would be interesting to see how much of this propaganda survives today within the general theory of Indo-Europeans. In the social imaginary/collective imagination it certainly survives even today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Chimpanzee can be very aggressive to their own, they even hunt down weaker monkeys and eat them. Bonobos related to Chimpanzee, are very different in nature. I always heard studies of when food run's out in a city (dense population)that human instinct turns violent very fast. The typical grocery store has to be replenished with food very frequently. I wondered if people in s big city would ever turn to cannibalism if food was not provided.
    Bonobos are an aberration which could develop only in isolation. They live primarily between two rivers in a rather limited and more scarce land. So they became smaller, less patriarchal and went for hypersexualism to avoid physical violence. If there wouldn't be the rivers and the isolation, if they would come in contact with chimpanzees proper, they would be annihilated within a short period of time. They are simply not as competitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    If the Steppe people were pastoralists didn't they sort of combine herding with farming. Farmers, I would guess, were herders as well. What you see (less so now than 30 years ago) historically in mountain communities of the Balkans;Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria are folks who are essentially farmers/pastoralists so I would assume that at some point these traditions fused rather than collided.
    The typical steppe pastoralists were by far not as successful. Yamnaya did conquer faster and move wider, but their legacy was small and they almost instantly mixed with locals, which did much better in their neighbourhood, even if the initial destruction was catastrophic, like in the Eastern Carpathian basin or at the Lower Danube.

    The really successful Indoeuropeans, which replaced on a grande scale, were the agro-pastoralists, which were not as fast, but came in, in large numbers, and replacing the locals, especially the local males. They came to stay and they didn't need the local farmers to produce what they can't produce themselves.

    In that way the Corded Ware people were in some ways closer to TRB-GAC predecessors, which covered by and large the same core territory by the way and with which they even fused in some regions, than to Yamnaya proper. Which is why it was fairly suprising that GAC was completely Neolithic, without any steppe ancestry and the earliest Corded Ware having very little to no GAC as well. Because archaeologically, and even by physical characteristics, they were clearly two very close people. But apparently, one being non-steppe, the other steppe-derived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Indeed, this is the idea held by some German Nazi and Italian fascist thinkers of the early decades of the 20th century. They are not even worth mentioning. The idea of the 'Nordic' Romans (with all the positive qualities that are implied) set against the 'Middle Eastern' Etruscans (peaceful, weak, corrupt, devoted to the futile pleasures of life). As kingjohn said, this is propaganda.

    It would be interesting to see how much of this propaganda survives today within the general theory of Indo-Europeans. In the social imaginary/collective imagination it certainly survives even today.
    I'm afraid quite a lot of this propaganda survives in the swampy corners of the Net, eg Apricity, which is a caricature of an anthro site.

    It is interesting how popular Coon is in such sites while they ignore the much more competent J. Lawrence Angel who designated a Nordic-Iranian type as part of the Indo-Europeans who invaded Greece, his speciality, and the East Med.

    But then Angel pointed out that his Nordic-Iranian category included brunette Iranian types as well as blondes.

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    anthrogenica:

    Originally Posted by manesh
    Does anyone have any new information about when this study will be published?



    J.delajara : I've heard by the end of this month...



    Originally Posted by rafc
    Any idea if that is valid for all three(?) papers, or which one would be published first?



    J Man : In this order:

    Neolithic
    Bronze Age
    Iron Age/Historical





    Pribislav:As far as I know, all three papers should be published in the same issue of Science. Most likely next friday, or the one after that.


    Last edited by kingjohn; 11-08-22 at 17:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    It's believed that 2/3 of the Roman population were slaves.
    If this is true, it may be the reason why the Roman society collapsed.
    You can't have such amount of people that only is in the Empire because they were kidnapped from somewhere else.

    You need your own citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Chimpanzee can be very aggressive to their own, they even hunt down weaker monkeys and eat them. Bonobos related to Chimpanzee, are very different in nature. I always heard studies of when food run's out in a city (dense population)that human instinct turns violent very fast. The typical grocery store has to be replenished with food very frequently. I wondered if people in s big city would ever turn to cannibalism if food was not provided.
    In regards to this, Chimpanzees are 10 times more numerous than Bonobos.
    Bonobos are barely relevant, but we all know Chimps.

    The Bonobo strategy of matriarchy didn't work, has been a very common topic these years that they're ruled by women, but that hasn't produce results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Bonobos are an aberration which could develop only in isolation. They live primarily between two rivers in a rather limited and more scarce land. So they became smaller, less patriarchal and went for hypersexualism to avoid physical violence. If there wouldn't be the rivers and the isolation, if they would come in contact with chimpanzees proper, they would be annihilated within a short period of time. They are simply not as competitive.
    The typical steppe pastoralists were by far not as successful. Yamnaya did conquer faster and move wider, but their legacy was small and they almost instantly mixed with locals, which did much better in their neighbourhood, even if the initial destruction was catastrophic, like in the Eastern Carpathian basin or at the Lower Danube.
    The really successful Indoeuropeans, which replaced on a grande scale, were the agro-pastoralists, which were not as fast, but came in, in large numbers, and replacing the locals, especially the local males. They came to stay and they didn't need the local farmers to produce what they can't produce themselves.
    In that way the Corded Ware people were in some ways closer to TRB-GAC predecessors, which covered by and large the same core territory by the way and with which they even fused in some regions, than to Yamnaya proper. Which is why it was fairly suprising that GAC was completely Neolithic, without any steppe ancestry and the earliest Corded Ware having very little to no GAC as well. Because archaeologically, and even by physical characteristics, they were clearly two very close people. But apparently, one being non-steppe, the other steppe-derived.
    I really like the fact that R1bZ2203 can be found along R1b-L51 in Afanasievo, Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Latins. And that Turganik Dom2 horses or any Dom2 horses were not found in any Corded Ware context. I'm beggining to question the narrative of horse domestication in Sintashta. No horses in Corded Ware(lot's of rock axes), No horses in Northern India, was Sintashta trading with the real Indo-Europeans for their supply of domesticated horses? I guess we will soon find out who ancient Armenian Armenians are related to. My bet is R1bZ2103-- a group connected to R1bL51--Afanasievo,Bell Beakers, Corded Ware, Latins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    If this is true, it may be the reason why the Roman society collapsed.
    You can't have such amount of people that only is in the Empire because they were kidnapped from somewhere else.
    You need your own citizens.

    I corrected myself, not 2/3 but 1/3 of the Roman population were slaves. Besides, in late imperial Rome, for instance, the Romans relied heavily on Germanic mercenaries, soldiers, to secure their border against other Germanic tribes. There are several reasons why Rome fell- invasions by Barbarian tribes, economic troubles, overreliance on slave labor, over-expansion, military spending, government corruption, and political instability.
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Before we go back to the topic let me make that clear I'm not talking out of my head as you try to make me appear.

    Here's the thing same scientific article was posted on a blog about Archaeology&history. https://ancient-archeology.com/categ...ology-history/

    Plus, on the official Website of the University of Tübingen, there was this article that alludes to the Etruscans being different from their neighbors not in terms of genetics, though.

    "Die Etrusker bewohnten während der Eisenzeit große Gebiete Mittelitaliens, die heutigen Regionen Toskana, Latium und Umbrien mit lokalen Ausläufern in benachbarte Regionen. Ihre Kultur ist bekannt für die besonderen Fähigkeiten bei der Metallbearbeitung, ihre hochentwickelte Kunst und ihre Sprache, die noch nicht in allen Teilen entschlüsselt ist und nicht zur Sprachfamilie der Indoeuropäischen Sprachen gehört. „Die Etrusker traten so verschieden von ihren Nachbarn auf, dass in der Wissenschaft schon lange darüber diskutiert wird, ob diese Bevölkerung lokal entstand oder zugewandert war. Unsere Ergebnisse zeigen einen lokalen Ursprung“, berichtet Cosimo Posth."

    Translation
    The Etruscans inhabited large areas of central Italy, present-day regions of Tuscany, Lazio and Umbria, with local outcrops into neighboring regions, during the Iron Age. Their culture is known for their special skills in metalworking, their highly developed art and their language, which is not yet fully deciphered and does not belong to the Indo-European language family. “The Etruscans appeared so different from their neighbors that scholars have long debated whether this population was local or immigrant. Our results show a local origin,” reports Cosimo Posth."

    https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/fachbereiche/geowissenschaften/fachbereich/aktuelles/aktuelles-aus-der-forschung/newsfullview-aktuelles-aus-der-forschung/article/genetische-abstammung-und-erbe-der-etrusker-entschluesselt/

    I think they ( etruscans ) where more in Tuscany , Lazio and western-Campania and not so much on the Adriatic side of Italy........they did push the umbri out of Lazio though....................the Umbri and their branches of people as in Sabines, Sabellics, Samnites, Volpsi, Brutti and others where more populous than the etruscans .

    Etruscans ruled over Rome and lazio for nearly 200 years


    The main problem is that people think the ethnicity of Republican Rome was the same as Imperial Rome .............it was completely different between the 2
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    anthrogenica:

    Originally Posted by manesh
    Does anyone have any new information about when this study will be published?



    J.delajara : I've heard by the end of this month...



    Originally Posted by rafc
    Any idea if that is valid for all three(?) papers, or which one would be published first?



    J Man : In this order:

    Neolithic
    Bronze Age
    Iron Age/Historical





    Pribislav:As far as I know, all three papers should be published in the same issue of Science. Most likely next friday, or the one after that.


    Thanks, kingjohn for the info. Good to know that we don't need to wait long for these 3 major papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Thanks, kingjohn for the info. Good to know that we don't need to wait long for these 3 major papers.
    let us hope pribislav is correct



    p.s
    i think it is going to be an exciting paper for r1b as usual

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Is there any evidence of high A+ blood types in Armenia and Anatolia being compatible with A RH- as per AE Mourant and or Iain Mathieson stats?
    A is highest in Norway and Armenia. From what I understand, A2 is/was highest among Assyrians.
    As for Mathieson: Do you know how he came up with the 40% Rh negative Steppe stats?
    I messaged him a few years ago with some inconsistencies in his studies and guess what... he blocked me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Anyone know if the R1b1a1a found in Samara Russia Hunter Gatherer 6000BC +/- had blonde hair and or blue eyes? Is Samara Russia pottery predate the southern sphere arc Arc pottery?
    My guess would rather be red or reddish hair. The Sarmatians for example alongside other descendants were reported to have high red hair frequencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    A-B-AB-O rh negative blood types are pretty unique to European people like Basque and Steppe. Modern day blood transfusions and women who are rh negative and married rh negative did not have to worry about losing their offspring.
    There should have been plenty of "blue babies" in Basque country prior to medical discoveries, but am not sure there is evidence for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    A is highest in Norway and Armenia. From what I understand, A2 is/was highest among Assyrians.
    As for Mathieson: Do you know how he came up with the 40% Rh negative Steppe stats?
    I messaged him a few years ago with some inconsistencies in his studies and guess what... he blocked me.
    . IF I recall, 30 years back I was looking at the frequency of A2, since that was one of the first genetic testing markers from King Tut(back in 60s-70s?if I recall). I'll have to recheck but I do believe AE, Mourant had a nice data set of A2 from Sammi with the highest frequency. There was another paper on the origins of ABO with A2 being thought to have it's origins in Caucasus. When I have a chance I double check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    There should have been plenty of "blue babies" in Basque country prior to medical discoveries, but am not sure there is evidence for that.
    Again if I recall it's been a long time (30years+/-)that I took an interest in the negative blood type and Basque/Steppe-Volga-Caucasus)If I recall Armenian proto Indo-European theorist Gramkrlidze
    had mentioned high rh negative frequency around Georgia, but linking it with Hunter Gatherer. There was another pocket of elevated rh negative and red hair around Italy-Swiss, again it's been a long time and I can't remember, when I have time I will chey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    In regards to this, Chimpanzees are 10 times more numerous than Bonobos.
    Bonobos are barely relevant, but we all know Chimps.

    The Bonobo strategy of matriarchy didn't work, has been a very common topic these years that they're ruled by women, but that hasn't produce results.

    What kind of potential results?

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    firetown. The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology. Serological evidence for the parentage of Tutankhamun and Smenkhkare. Aug 1 1976. The Distribution of the Human Blood Groups and Other Polymorphisms. Sec. Ed. A.E Mourant, Ada C Kopec and Kzimiera Domaniewska Sobczak. London Oxford University Press 1976.

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    ABO blood type frequencies are the result of natural selection due to various circumstances. Their origins are much much older, so no need to make some dubious affiliations with ancient ethnic groups and claim it has origins here or there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Again if I recall it's been a long time (30years+/-)that I took an interest in the negative blood type and Basque/Steppe-Volga-Caucasus)If I recall Armenian proto Indo-European theorist Gramkrlidze
    had mentioned high rh negative frequency around Georgia, but linking it with Hunter Gatherer. There was another pocket of elevated rh negative and red hair around Italy-Swiss, again it's been a long time and I can't remember, when I have time I will chey.
    I would be very interested in the Georgia pocket. As for Switzerland/Italy:
    While suspecting the Etruscans to have had elevated frequencies, Tuscany today seems to be on European average while some of the Walser regions in Rhone Valley have shown frequencies as high as the Basques, also high percentages of people with red hair.

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