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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

  1. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bgtrak View Post
    What is this ROR population that you use to measure the distance ?
    Ror is a population of Indo Aryans (Hindu Ksatriya caste I think) from Haryana. I use them in the calcs because they look like the best proxy for an ancient population based around the Indus river from which other Indo Aryans and NW Eurasians descend.

    This is because most NW Eurasians ancient and modern are closest to Ror compared to other Indo Aryans. Also, other Indo Aryans are also closest to Ror compared to each other. So its like Ror is the central point of dispersal hence most many pops are closer to Ror than anyone else.

    Although this population is currently found to the East of the Indus in Haryana, there are folk histories that tie them to the Sindh from where they originated.

    From all the Indo Aryan groups that we have DNA from, the Ror seem closest to the central point in the expansion. It seems there may have been an ancient nomadic population based around Sindh which were the Rigvedic Aryans but they may have dispersed over time and settled in other regions due to pressure from the West and economic and political pressure to move into the Neolithic settled way of life.

    Code:
    A                       B                       C            f3 stderr Zscore nsnps
    1 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  225.   1.47   153. 65284
    2 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Ror                     Chimp.REF  222.   1.49   149. 56898
    3 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Pathan                  Chimp.REF  221.   1.40   158. 71296
    4 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Jatt                    Chimp.REF  221.   1.62   137. 49023
    5 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  220.   1.47   150. 52014
    6 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1
    
    7 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  224.   1.17   191. 81737
    8 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Ror                     Chimp.REF  223.   1.19   188. 74948
    9 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Pathan                  Chimp.REF  223.   1.12   199. 88389
    10 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Jatt                    Chimp.REF  222.   1.30   170. 69167
    11 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  220.   1.47   150. 52014
    12 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1
    
    13 Jatt                    Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  224.   1.24   181. 83899
    14 Jatt                    Ror                     Chimp.REF  224.   1.25   178. 76100
    15 Jatt                    Pathan                  Chimp.REF  223.   1.17   190. 92082
    16 Jatt                    Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  222.   1.30   170. 69167
    17 Jatt                    Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  221.   1.62   137. 49023
    18 Jatt                    Jatt                    Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1
    
    19 Pathan                  Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  224.   1.08   207. 92681
    20 Pathan                  Ror                     Chimp.REF  224.   1.09   206. 92463
    21 Pathan                  Jatt                    Chimp.REF  223.   1.17   190. 92082
    22 Pathan                  Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  223.   1.12   199. 88389
    23 Pathan                  Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  221.   1.40   158. 71296
    24 Pathan                  Pathan                  Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1
    
    25 Ror                     Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  225.   1.15   195. 86057
    26 Ror                     Pathan                  Chimp.REF  224.   1.09   206. 92463
    27 Ror                     Jatt                    Chimp.REF  224.   1.25   178. 76100
    28 Ror                     Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  223.   1.19   188. 74948
    29 Ror                     Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  222.   1.49   149. 56898
    30 Ror                     Ror                     Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1
    
    31 Russia_Afanasievo       Ror                     Chimp.REF  225.   1.15   195. 86057
    32 Russia_Afanasievo       Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  225.   1.47   153. 65284
    33 Russia_Afanasievo       Pathan                  Chimp.REF  224.   1.08   207. 92681
    34 Russia_Afanasievo       Jatt                    Chimp.REF  224.   1.24   181. 83899
    35 Russia_Afanasievo       Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  224.   1.17   191. 81737
    36 Russia_Afanasievo       Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1
    The Ror and Jatt samples I use come from a study by Pathak where he looked at Rors, Jatts and Gujjars. He concluded that Rors were the closest to West Eurasians but I think that was already suspected prior to his study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurasiadna View Post
    The Ror and Jatt samples I use come from a study by Pathak where he looked at Rors, Jatts and Gujjars. He concluded that Rors were the closest to West Eurasians but I think that was already suspected prior to his study.
    I was checking for similar connections with Kusunda people.
    Could you check what is the distance between Kusunda / Ror by using your system ?
    I have several other populations in the center, however we must admit this "center" was aslo the starting point for all other populations outside of Africa. I am almost sure Kusunda stayed on their original place and did not mix much with Steppes or Anatolia. But more verifications will be needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bgtrak View Post
    I was checking for similar connections with Kusunda people.
    Could you check what is the distance between Kusunda / Ror by using your system ?
    I have several other populations in the center, however we must admit this "center" was aslo the starting point for all other populations outside of Africa. I am almost sure Kusunda stayed on their original place and did not mix much with Steppes or Anatolia. But more verifications will be needed.
    I think that would be off-topic for this thread. I'm gonna try and publish this stuff on a blog somewhere and then we can have deeper discussions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bgtrak View Post
    There is nothing from me about politics, there are some geographical locations when mentioning India or Pakistan. I think the origin of the first PIE should be located somewhere in Pakistan, but it could be also Afganistan or Iran. Because Iran is the place for mixture with Neolitic farmers /afro-asiatic languages/.
    India and Pakistan were the land of Dravidian, Burushaski, Munda and other Non-Indo-European people, IE languages spread there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurasiadna View Post
    I think that would be off-topic for this thread. I'm gonna try and publish this stuff on a blog somewhere and then we can have deeper discussions.
    Just a small correction. Forget about Kusunda people, it is about Kalasha. (My mistake, because I always mix them a little bit, however Kalasha are the IE, Kusunda are totally different language group).

    See: The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India

    Ajai K. Pathak
    Figure S11. Maximum Likelihood tree of TreeMix relationship of NorthwestIndian groups with neighboring Pakistani and other Eurasians inferred by TreeMixshowing Ror and Kalash in the same clade.
    Ror people and Kalasha are on the same branch, exactly in the middle, we can say at the root.

  6. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    To me, it appears that Krause and Reich, when it comes to the PIE origin, are rather driven by research bias and pet theories than by hard data. But that's just my two cents.
    I can't imagine what two European males, and the entire Max Plank Institute, would gain by offering an Iranian (of all places) homeland to PIE. On the contrary, Steppe theory serves to fuel ethnocentric tendencies, so it makes sense if most of Western research would work to support it.. Steppe theory has been the default hypothesis, long before any genetic data, or any substantial archeological evidence was in it's favor, and IMO that strongly reflects research bias. Of course, with what we know today, we can reject the hypothesis that PIE came from the Steppe, with extraordinary certainty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Ok but my question still stands. What Proto Indo European Language has been assigned to the Sredny Stog culture from the period 4500-3500 BC?

    The scholarly consensus is that the now extinct Anatolian Indo European Language branch has the oldest IE language (Hittite) and Professor Anthony himself suggest that the Proto-Anatolian IE branch dates to as early as 4200 BC. So 1) Is there a Proto-Indo European language from Sredny Stog that can be placed before between from period 4500-4200 BC that can be potentially linked to the Anatolian IE branch and 2) Do we have genetic data suggesting migrating Males from Ukraine (Sredny Stog) brought the Proto-IE language from which the Anatolian IE branch was derived from?

    Those are the questions I personally need to see answered. As long as the Anatolian IE branch is the oldest one and it precedes al the other IE language branches and it is dated to earlier than both Corded Ware (3000 BC to 2300 BC) and Yamnaya (3300 BC to 2600 BC), both of which we know from genetic data were involved in the spread of IE from the Steppes into the rest of Europe, Yamnaya into SE Europe (Balkans) and Greece, Corded Ware into Northern, Central and Western Europe and likely also Italy (although I think Yamnaya may have been more involved in Italy, but that is not a definitive statement, just personal gut feeling). So the Kurgan Hypothesis is and has been supported by the genetic data explaining the spread of IE into those areas I mentioned. So I want to be clear on that point.

    What is the question at hand is where was the original Proto Indo European language homeland? Was it also in the Steppes and thus the Steppes were both the home of Proto-Indo European and the place from which it spread into the rest of Europe or was the Proto-Indo European Language Homeland South of the Caucus Mountains in what is modern Armenia/Northern Iran?

    The Anatolian IE branch being the oldest and sitting there with basically little genetic turnover really from the Mesolithic to the bronze age is something that has to be answered to definitively settle the question of where the PIE homeland is. IF it can be shown that some Steppe ancestry came into Anatolia around the same time the Anatolian branch of IE developed, then that would make the case for the PIE homeland in the Steppe better supported by the data.

    So that is my take on it. And as I have said a million times since I have been at Eupedia since 2019, I have no emotional ties to the PIE being in the Steppes or South of the Caucus Mountains.
    Not sure why people believe because Hittite is oldest known IE language, it must be the oldest one in existence. Perhaps, because linguistic analysis, has converged on the date 4500 BC? You should know for the past ~20 years there has been the argument against the late PIE date, and in favor of an earlier date ~6500BC - Reich, the entire Max Plank Institute, and others have, independently, supported that early date for PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMillitech View Post
    Not sure why people believe because Hittite is oldest known IE language, it must be the oldest one in existence. Perhaps, because linguistic analysis, has converged on the date 4500 BC? You should know for the past ~20 years there has been the argument against the late PIE date, and in favor of an earlier date ~6500BC - Reich, the entire Max Plank Institute, and others have, independently, supported that early date for PIE.
    Again, did my post say dogmatically I have a position. I am not a dogmatist on the question of when and where PIE originated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Yamnaya can be modeled entirely with Steppe + EEF.

    Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Distance: 0.0290% / 0.02899665 | R3P
    70.5 RUS_Progress_En:PG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%
    17.3 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
    12.2 UKR_Trypillia:I2110___BC_3747___Coverage_14.11%

    The only thing is that going back far enough you do find Iran_N in these populations (don't know if the same applies to qpAdm though). Perhaps this component was already long established in the North Caucasus, there may have been migrations millennia earlier that increased Iran_N in the region, but these are not to be associated with Proto-Indo-European.

    Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    Distance: 0.0594% / 0.05936254
    34.3 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    27.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371___Coverage_84 .07%
    25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    5.9 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    3.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%
    3.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%

    Target: RUS_Progress_En
    Distance: 0.0495% / 0.04953731
    38.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
    20.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Cover age_23.08%
    19.2 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
    13.4 RUS_Veretye_Meso:PES001___BC_10761___Coverage_97.5 0%
    8.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

    I couldn't tell when Iran_N arrived, but it is present in samples dated almost around 5000 BC.

    Sample IRAN_N %
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32% 4,1
    RUS_Progress_En:PG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05% 11,3
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I1722___BC_4458___Coverage_14.76% 5
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2055___BC_4558___Coverage_15.17% 3,3
    RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516___Coverage_59.59% 5,1
    RUS_Vonyuchka_En:VJ1001___BC_4280___Coverage_70.20 % 16,6
    RUS_Progress_En:PG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94% 6,7
    You need to understand the difference between proximal and ultimate sources of admixture. The Iran_Neo component is obviously higher than you suggest with your result, but this is largely masked through a conduit of "CHG" (nearly isomorphic with Iran). With wave models of admixture between population A ---> C, it must transition through population B. You can always claim the source of admixture in target population C, was population B, on the basis of some minute genetic variation. In the case of Yamnaya, the much of the origin of variation was ultimately Iran, which under continuous gene flow through the Caucuses, made it's way to the Steppe.

  10. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Iran is just a land where some people lived there in different periods, for many reasons a large number of these people migrated to other lands in the ancient times and it is still happening in the modern times.
    Can you name one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    Can you name one?
    Look at it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-38071-8

    In summary, our study of future climate in Iran depicts a grim picture concerning more frequent extreme wet and dry periods, more extended periods of extremely hot temperatures, and higher frequency of floods across the country. Combination of these events, especially in the three Desert climate zones, may create an uninhabitable living condition as also suggested by other studies.

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