David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Alan]

Actually it means the opposite. It means they found markers for a downstream position, just a different branch than the already known ones and they need an additional tested member for this branch to define it. In many such cases, those * will create big new branches with many downstream members, including the current * cases, if so far undertested regions and people get more testing. It doesn't mean, in any case, that these * samples are particularly upstream, "old" or "dead ends" more than any other samples of these haplogroups, but rather parallel branch members of so far undefined subclades.

That is actually exactly what I meant. I wrote it is a "deadend" in the sense, it is a branch off (Brother clade) which does not fit the known mutations. Therefore the *. As you see they tested for the downstream mutation which define L23 for R1b and in case of the R1a for z93 or z280. But it was negative. And this is a sign of diversity. The point is this right here branched off from M269 and not L23. Every Haplogroup with time mutates. It is near impossible to find ancestral m343 or m269 today but it is possible to find branch offs from it. And when you find these branch offs which do not show the known mutations this is a sign that not one single branch (founder effect) occured here. But the actual ancestral branch existed and mutated into different directions.

[eupator]

Imagine taking 23ame's haplogroup branching seriously ...

[eupator]

On the Kurdish FTDNA project and in your own links, the vast majority of the R1bs listed are downstreams of L584 with a couple of odd ones out that are of Western origin (P312s).

L584 and its descendants are BA Armenia, essentially all of these are assimilated Armenian speaker lineages.

Everything else you wrote is science fiction/wishful thinking.

This is the Yamnaya route into Armenia, aka the proto-Armenian speakers, and L584 is their genetic signal.





Time to internalize it and move on, L584s didn't speak Indo-Iranic, they were proto-Armenian speakers branching out of Yamnaya.

[Riverman]

I'm not sure they came from Yamnaya though, but probably from a later movement of Catacomb/MCW related people.

[Moja]

Armenians didn't come from anywhere, they are an Indo-European people who have always lived in their own land. Those who migrated to Armenia were Urartians.