David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Palermo Trapani]

Palermo, I think you knew the answer, yes?

Mycenae is full of R1a men with blonde hair and blue eyes! How could you doubt it.

The fact that samples from that one location have not yet been posted is obviously a conspiracy by undesirable Near Easterners and Southern Europeans.

Trust me, Phil, if that's what it turns out to be I'll acknowledge it immediately.

I think, however, that rather than a conspiracy involving not just the Reich Lab but everyone else in the population genetics academic community, it is either a function of the fact that the samples are low coverage and/or contaminated through much prior handling, or they have been sitting on them waiting to put them in the proper paper.

Your a good attorney, you seem to never ask a question that you don't already have a good idea what the answer is

 

[Philjames100]

it is either a function of the fact that the samples are low coverage and/or contaminated through much prior handling

If you were doing a genetic study on the Mycenaeans, and you were not able to get samples from Mycenae (an obvious first choice) for whatever reason, you would expect that to be mentioned or explained somewhere ('Unfortunately we were not able to get samples from the graves at Mycenae...' etc).

 

[kingjohn]

If the leaks about r1b and other j2
Are real i truly don't think we are going
To see much different picture of y haplogroups
In this site mycenae( say they sampled it) compare to the sites they tested already

 

[Pax Augusta]

I wonder if any study on Mycenaean Greece will ever include samples from Mycenae?

Do you know how many bone remains were found in the necropolises of Mycenae?

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

The Hamito-Semitic substratum in insular Celtic is still under debate. But if accepted, I think it's considered as a pre-IE substratum (Neolithic?) more than a post-PIE input.

It is possible, but the present day Basque language (the last non-Indo-European language that survived in Western Europe), the ancient Iberian (non-Indo-European) and Etruscan languages are very far from being Semitic.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

In Lazaridis a J2a sample was found in Galatas, which is where this rumored J2a-L70 sample is from. Galatas is near Mycenae. There is no reason at this point to think that there was a “headquarters” of Greek Steppe invaders who conquered but remained largely separate from the ANE-heavy natives.

Happened upon the modem village/town of Galatas by accident, driving from Hermione to Athens some years ago. Absolutely lovely looking place, right on the sea.

 

[peloponnesian]

I don't know what they would reveal, but I find it odd that neither the Lazaridis study or apparently the upcoming one from Reich has any samples from there. Why not?
"Anywhere but Mycenae" apparently.

We've only had 2 papers focused on ancient Greece so far, and a meagre number of samples. We don't even know if the bones from Mycenae have recoverable DNA. For example, the Lerna bone collection belongs to Harvard (if I remember correctly), which makes me think that it's already been screened for DNA and found lacking. Most of the aDNA we're getting from Greece is from more recent excavations. In any case, I wouldn't expect to see in Mycenae something drastically different from the other Mycenaean sites.

 

[Er Monnezza]

It also documents CHG/Iran Neolithic going North of the Caucuses into the Steppes. Your from Italy so think of the Autostrade(Interstate in USA), they go both ways correct. The Gene flow went both ways South to North of the Caucus mountains and North to South of the Caucus mountains. Both areas spoke IE languages, we agree on that.

CHG and Iran_N, while relatively similar, should be separated. CHG and Iran_N of the Steppe come from Caucasus/North Caucasus, not from south of it. Steppe populations have too little Iran_N to support an origin south of Caucasus.

What is the research question that is still not definitively settled is which area was the homeland for PIE. You favor North of the Steppes, you may be proven correct. Some favor south of the Steppes in either modern Armenia or Northern Iran., they may be correct.

The lands south of Caucasus also have a Natufian/PPNB component that simply does not exist in the Steppe. To claim that PIE came from South of Caucasus borders on insanity. I am not joking.

 

[real expert]

I wonder if any study on Mycenaean Greece will ever include samples from Mycenae?

At least we have relevant samples from the Minoans and Mycenaeans, not awfully many but enough to get an idea about who these people were, genetically speaking. Surely, more DNA samples from different sites would be optimal to dispel any doubts. Nevertheless, what I find more frustrating is the fact, that in the year 2015 Scientists discovered and examined the bones of King Phillip II of Macedon—father of Alexander the Great, a Hephaestion a friend, companion, and a general in the army of Alexander. And many years later there are still no DNA samples from Philip II (or any other skeletal remains in the Pella tombs) and Hephaestion, not even freaking Y-DNA or mtDNA. Plus, the genome-wide results of King Tut and his family are still not in sight.

 

[Hawk]

At least we have relevant samples from the Minoans and Mycenaeans, not awfully many but enough to get an idea about who these people were, genetically speaking. Surely, more DNA samples from different sites would be optimal to dispel any doubts. Nevertheless, what I find more frustrating is the fact, that in the year 2015 Scientists discovered and examined the bones of King Phillip II of Macedon—father of Alexander the Great, a Hephaestion a friend, companion, and a general in the army of Alexander. And many years later there are still no DNA samples from Philip II (or any other skeletal remains in the Pella tombs) and Hephaestion, not even freaking Y-DNA or mtDNA. Plus, the genome-wide results of King Tut and his family are still not in sight.

Philip II was cremated, that is a bit of an issue.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Er Monnezza: Ok, the CHG component is from Georgia, that is South of the Caucuses. The CHG movement into North of the Steppes does not mean it had to have PPNB. So which lands South of the Caucuses have PNNB as you say, all of them. When did that admixture get there. That Russian sample has both CHG/IRAN NEO ancestry, that is a South to North movement. That individual sample RUS_Afanasievo vs. the Caucus Lowland samples could reflect different migrations. PIE could be South of the Caucuses in what is modern Armenia and Northern Iran, peoples that spoke PIE moved North carrying CHG and Iran Neo ancestry and some peoples further in the South Caucus lands received genetic inflow from the Levant which did not get into the Northern most regions of the South Caucus area.

So do all ancient samples South of the Caucuses have PNNB ancestry? Maybe they all do. If so, then what you are suggesting does not converge to what the Lazaridis et al 2016 paper reported. I posted Figure 4 from that paper in an earlier post so I will post it again in the context of your post #968. It shows those Steppe EMBA an Steppe MLBA samples have some Levantine related admixture. Note the Armenian Bronze Age samples harbor the same type ancestry. Wang et al 2019 also shows heavy CHG ancestry into those Yamanya samples in that paper (some additional samples)

 

[real expert]

Philip II was cremated, that is a bit of an issue.

According to the scientific articles I've read, the researchers found leg bones from Philip II and they could even determine that he was around 180 cm.

 

[Philjames100]

At least we have relevant samples from the Minoans and Mycenaeans, not awfully many but enough to get an idea about who these people were, genetically speaking. Surely, more DNA samples from different sites would be optimal to dispel any doubts. Nevertheless, what I find more frustrating is the fact, that in the year 2015 Scientists discovered and examined the bones of King Phillip II of Macedon—father of Alexander the Great, a Hephaestion a friend, companion, and a general in the army of Alexander. And many years later there are still no DNA samples from Philip II (or any other skeletal remains in the Pella tombs) and Hephaestion, not even freaking Y-DNA or mtDNA. Plus, the genome-wide results of King Tut and his family are still not in sight.

I don't think they got genome-wide results from king Tut and family. However their DNA results are an example of unexpected results which provide information that could have been totally missed if those specific individuals had not been sampled.

Also they lied about the results, covered them up for 10 years and have only eventually published them (for whatever reason) as quietly as they possibly could. No press release, no information or mention in the media at all about the 18th dynasty results since they were 'officially' published in 2020.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

Palermo, I think you knew the answer, yes?

Mycenae is full of R1a men with blonde hair and blue eyes! How could you doubt it.

The fact that samples from that one location have not yet been posted is obviously a conspiracy by undesirable Near Easterners and Southern Europeans.

Trust me, Phil, if that's what it turns out to be I'll acknowledge it immediately.

I think, however, that rather than a conspiracy involving not just the Reich Lab but everyone else in the population genetics academic community, it is either a function of the fact that the samples are low coverage and/or contaminated through much prior handling, or they have been sitting on them waiting to put them in the proper paper.

Unfortunately some people here continue to be obsessed with trying to forcefully prove that the ancient Greeks were pale, blond and blue-eyed...
I have a feeling they will be very disappointed with this new research by Reich.
Anyway, just look at the "Nordic" physiognomy of these ancient Greek images (curly dark mediterranean hair):

 

[Angela]

Your a good attorney, you seem to never ask a question that you don't already have a good idea what the answer is

Well, if I genuinely lack some knowledge about a topic, I definitely would and "have" asked a question precisely because I didn't know the answer. That's how you learn in a situation like this, or in a classroom, for example.

You can't do that in a court room, unless you want to lose. You have to know the answer to every question you ask, no matter what the circumstances.

If you're doing a direct examination of your own witness, again, you have to know the answers to the questions, but the questions have to be completely open ended: What, when, where, why, how. Hopefully the witness has been sufficiently prepared that the necessary points will be made, because you can't ask a "leading question", i.e. one where the answer is implied in the question. You can't help your witness out in that way.

If you're cross-examining a perhaps hostile witness it sometimes seems you're asking nothing but leading questions to which you know or can prove the answer and which you also know will impeach the witness by showing an agenda, bias, propensity to lie, prior inconsistent statement, mistake of fact etc.

That's the difference. Understanding that and how to lay a proper foundation to get evidence admitted and the exceptions to the hearsay rule are what trials rely upon. It's amazing how many practicing attorneys can't get it right. I blame it on the fact that so many cases settled before they ever reach trial.

In this hobby, which is just awash with people analyzing data not "blind", or objectively, but purely from the standpoint of their own agendas, it takes no great skill to know what is behind the questions some people ask.

Off-topic. If you're interested in seeing an attorney who settled too many cases get destroyed because she didn't understand the fundamentals, watch the following. If she weren't such an awful, dishonest person I could almost feel sorry for her.

How NOT to do a direct examination of your witness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Q5nbu6BoQ

How TO do a cross examination:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUtjCcZa4Bs

 

[Anfänger]

CHG and Iran_N, while relatively similar, should be separated. CHG and Iran_N of the Steppe come from Caucasus/North Caucasus, not from south of it. Steppe populations have too little Iran_N to support an origin south of Caucasus.
The lands south of Caucasus also have a Natufian/PPNB component that simply does not exist in the Steppe. To claim that PIE came from South of Caucasus borders on insanity. I am not joking.

Nope, CHG/Iran ancestry in steppe is from south of the Caucasus. Since you like G25 so much, just take a look at the results of Progress and Vonuchka and the outlier from Khvalynsk. All of them have Iran_N, it is highest in Vonuchka, about 10%. Then you have to deduct the EHG ancestry from these Eneolithic samples and you’ll get roughly 1/3 Iran_N in the supposed unadmixed CHG/Iran population. There is no way for a population living north of the Caucasus carrying so much Iran_N.

No one is saying that the samples we already have from Iran went into the steppe but from a population that was living between the already published CHGs and those Iran_N samples. My bet is that Mesolithic or Neolithic Armenia, Northern Iran and/or Azerbaijan were the source.

 

[kingjohn]

J man (anthrogenica)
Yes there will be other E1b1b subclades in the papers.....There should be some E-V13 but likely not a lot.

P.s
Interesting
Probably e-v22 , e-m84> pf6751, e-m84>y5435
,e-z841> e-L791

 

[Hawk]

J man ( anthrogenica)
Yes there will be other E1b1b subclades in the papers.....There should be some E-V13 but likely not a lot.

P.s
Interesting
Probably e-v22 , e-m84> pf6751, e-m84>y5435
,e-z841> e-L791

I wouldn't rely on him, he is not a reliable source. Especially not for E-V13.

 

[kingjohn]

I wouldn't rely on him, he is not a reliable source. Especially not for E-V13.

Why you say that ?

 

[Hawk]

Why you say that ?

Last time they were acting the same regarding Thracian samples, and it ended up that they watched a youtube video from Stamov in Bulgarian and missrepresented what they saw/heard.