David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Jovialis]

Another issue is that you need to project them in 3D.

For example, Natufian looks very close in 2D for this PCA, but in 3D you see massive distance on a z axis.

[bicicleur]

To clarify, I don't think the Natufians were "farmers" in the true sense of the word, but the Levant Neo people who carried their ancestry were certainly one of the groups who can be credited with "inventing" farming. If Mesopotamians also carried that ancestry, then we can indeed add irrigation, writing, city states, and empires. Of course, monotheism arose in the Levant.

afaik there is no data available yet to prove or disprove it, but I believe the Levant Neo PPNA are the direct descendants of the Natufians, maybe with some minor admixtures
farming in the Levant was a consequence of the Natufian way of life altered through the Younger Dryas period, which caused a bottleneck and isolation of the population

also note that the PPNA (immeadiately after the Younger Dryas) didn't have any domesticated animals yet
it seems to me that domestication of animals happened elsewhere - the eastern Taurus Mountains, that is why we see haplogroup T appear in PPNB Ain Ghazal, as opposed to E1b1b1 and H2 Natufians
the Zarqa river valley may have been occupied by mobile herders-hunters from the Taurus Mountains before the Levantine farmers founded the permanent settlement of Ain Ghazal

neither do I believe the Levantines invented pottery, as it appeared in the Levant very late - they even had a PPNC - only in the Levant

there were trading networks like for obsidian, and small tribes settling elsewhere or maybe exchange of brides, bringing along domesticates and pottery

Central Anatolia didn't have anything but obsidian, but imported all these new inventions through their trade contacts
Asikli Hoyuk was near to the obsidian fields in Capadocia
Boncuklu on the other hand was way further west

I'm awaiting publishment of this new paper, I hope it will make me wiser, proving or disproving my views

[Jovialis]

Just to tie things back to the topic of the thread, you can see for example Natufian would look very close to many modern populations in 2D, but in 3D you see their true distance.

[Jovialis]

Another thing is that loading in certain samples may break the PCA if it doesn't have other samples to balance out the projection. I recall an old article by Razib Khan that said something similar when trying to project West Eurasians with a very different population like SSA. It would not project properly.

[Jovialis]

The "West Asian" continuum described in the article from CHG to Natufian goes along a z-axis, while Europeans go along a x-axis with a slight tilt toward CHG on the southern European end.

[Pax Augusta]

I'm happy you mentioned that because I have made several posts regarding those limitations. Specifically with WHG. Which is why in my model, I used samples that are admixed with WHG to CHG on a gradient. Because these ancient samples fall within the range of modern samples, there should be no problem in projecting them. I see a lot of new calculators have far worse projections when using the vahaduo pca.

WHG is an important element of Latins and Etruscans and it is a problem if Dodecad used with nMonte fails to recognize it. I do not think that samples who are admixed with WHG can be the ultimate solution.

[TJeroen]

Hellenics and Indo-Iranians withouth Steppe? I have a hard time believing that.

[bigsnake49]

Hellenics and Indo-Iranians withouth Steppe? I have a hard time believing that.

Not without but with small amounts.

[Archetype0ne]

The thing is what we call Steppe is pretty much CHG+EHG in equal amounts more or less... Hence all it takes is to find an EEF less individual within Northern Fertile Crescent... which imo is equally as extraordinary... But on the other hand finding EHG there combined with CHG is not that big of a stretch. So all we can do is hope the samples are as extraordinary as the claim the thesis of this paper makes.

[enter_tain]

It supports the Indo-Hittite hypothesis. Indo-European languages transferred to Corded Ware culture via Cucuteni-Tripolye (related to Anatolians). This is the answer, I cannot possibly see another being true.

It's way too much of a time gap. Languages don't work like that. Anatolian is maybe 1000 years apart from other PIE languages.

And like it's been stated, the vocabulary doesn't match farming communities.

[Angela]

Some old threads on Posth et al 2021 and modeling ancient Italians:

Variation of Ancestry in Posth et al. 2021's Imperial C. Italy cluster (eupedia.com)

Ancient Italy K8 Model (Dodecad K12b) (eupedia.com)

This is why I am convinced:



Etruscans get a big Remedello component, going by this model, it shows the Etruscans were indeed composed of autosomal DNA that was autochthonous. But they also get assigned the Minoan component. Not to be taken literally as Minoan from Crete, but that is indeed indicative of having some proclivity to the BA CHG pulse in the Mediterranean, including Italy.

Seems pretty clear to me. I don't understand the intense resistance to it. What would be so terrible about the Etruscans and the LATINS (as there seems to also be some resistance to including some of the Republican Era Romans in the "Latin" group) having a bit of that Iran Neo pulse.

Unlike some, I'm also not convinced that some academics can actually distinguish Iran Neo from CHG. That's why they put both names.

Yes, this is an old calculator, but Dienekes knew what he was doing, more so than most of the academicians putting their names to papers.

[Angela]

I get about the same amount of steppe myself, but I never really considered that as being much.

So do I, and there's a big difference between 25% or so and the 50% and more in some Europeans in Eastern Europe and over the Alps.

Good grief, yes, the Etruscans were not Anatolians who arrived in the first century B.C.E., but neither were they Central European or North European like of any variety.

They were within the Southern European cluster, as were the Latins.

I think it's as well not to exaggerate in either direction.

[Angela]

afaik there is no data available yet to prove or disprove it, but I believe the Levant Neo PPNA are the direct descendants of the Natufians, maybe with some minor admixtures
farming in the Levant was a consequence of the Natufian way of life altered through the Younger Dryas period, which caused a bottleneck and isolation of the population

also note that the PPNA (immeadiately after the Younger Dryas) didn't have any domesticated animals yet
it seems to me that domestication of animals happened elsewhere - the eastern Taurus Mountains, that is why we see haplogroup T appear in PPNB Ain Ghazal, as opposed to E1b1b1 and H2 Natufians
the Zarqa river valley may have been occupied by mobile herders-hunters from the Taurus Mountains before the Levantine farmers founded the permanent settlement of Ain Ghazal

neither do I believe the Levantines invented pottery, as it appeared in the Levant very late - they even had a PPNC - only in the Levant

there were trading networks like for obsidian, and small tribes settling elsewhere or maybe exchange of brides, bringing along domesticates and pottery

Central Anatolia didn't have anything but obsidian, but imported all these new inventions through their trade contacts
Asikli Hoyuk was near to the obsidian fields in Capadocia
Boncuklu on the other hand was way further west

I'm awaiting publishment of this new paper, I hope it will make me wiser, proving or disproving my views

I'm in agreement, especially as concerns the fact that animal domestication occurred elsewhere.

My only quibble would be that I believe there is modeling showing that Levantine farmers included Anatolian farmer dna.

I guess we'll have to see what this new paper shows us.

[Jovialis]

So do I, and there's a big difference between 25% or so and the 50% and more in some Europeans in Eastern Europe and over the Alps.

Good grief, yes, the Etruscans were not Anatolians who arrived in the first century B.C.E., but neither were they Central European or North European like of any variety.

They were within the Southern European cluster, as were the Latins.

I think it's as well not to exaggerate in either direction.

Indeed, and both were mostly Anatolia_N, which is what southern Europeans are mostly made up of as well. Thus the Roman Republic, and Empire are Southern European, Mediterranean inventions. Because imo, Latins, and Etruscans indeed fall in the Mediterranean continuum, making up one side of which it is a bracket for; the other side being Minoan.

[mount123]

In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers.

I am personally hoping for more Posušje culture samples like the ones we got from BA Dalmatia Veliki Vanik, Gudnja etc. and I am very curious if very first EBA Cetina culture samples have been tested and will be published too. It would also be interesting to know what Castellieri culture samples would look like and if they, as in my own opinion/guess, be a perhaps intermediate population due to its position bordering other northern neighbours. These missing puzzles would close some gaps for ancient J2b-L283 distribution in the Bronze Age East Adriatic.

This paper, if the rumored samples in question are part of it, will be pretty huge for us from the South Western/Central Balkans as it would be the first paper having aDNA samples from the region (there is definitely samples from Albania) included. I hope we will also some day get aDNA from Kosovo.

[Hawk]

The origin of language families cannot be solved by genetics alone since it can be misleading, but rather genetics + linguistics. As far as i know the Proto Indo-European origin must be sought on the Steppes, the common flora and fauna words for IE indicates that.

Perhaps they know something more than we do, so let's wait what they have to say, i am expecting a lot of debate regarding this issue. I hope it's not liberal politicized move since science needs to be as it is.

[peloponnesian]

From Y-DNA we can tell the EEF paternal lineages were almost completely wiped out, even in Southern Europe. The hope that J2B2/EV13 were farmer lineages has all but disappeared. Their TMRCA is in early Bronze Age just like other IE lineages, and they are entirely absent from EEF communities. We have hundreds, if not thousands, of samples so far from Neolithic Europe and even the "EV-13" in Spain turned out to be fake. So there is subjugation of the locals 100%. The only holdout that we know of were the Minoans, who eventually fell as well.

Where did E-L618 come from? Saying "E-V13 is a BA lineage" is a tautology, by default any lineage that exists today must have an ancestor lineage in the BA. Saying "E-V13 is an IE lineage" is also a tautology because by default every lineage that was present in most of BA Europe would have been part of an IE-speaking population. Not sure what you mean by Minoans but rest assured that J2a was a big player in ancient Greece. Or is J2a an "IE lineage" as well?

[Stefano]

I want to add my 2 cent to the discussion, based on what i see with g25 calcs.


Model used

GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_Natufian_I0861,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1252054,0.0891408,0.0430338,0.1150967,-0.0285181,0.0453663,0.0046478,-0.002513,-0.0555623,-0.0727931,0.0006676,0.0005994,-0.0030724,-0.023564,0.0363427,0.0152183,-0.0007246,-0.0015204,-0.0039106,0.0140344,-0.0036879,0.000426,0.0109278,0.0184497,-0.0043241
WHG:WHG_I1875,0.130897,0.120848,0.191577,0.194447,0.159107,0.048248,0.015746,0.040152,0.087332,0.007472,-0.016076,-0.015436,0.017839,-0.003303,0.047909,0.047069,0.007302,0.018497,-0.003268,0.057027,0.087471,0.00915,-0.048436,-0.143153,0.01449
WHG:WHG_Rochedane,0.118376,0.111708,0.178001,0.184111,0.150182,0.044623,0.010575,0.034383,0.090809,0.028064,-0.014615,-0.016186,0.013974,-0.002752,0.058767,0.069344,0.002738,0.014189,-0.015335,0.054151,0.101446,0.013231,-0.050778,-0.178579,0.019519
WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso,0.1225497,0.1120467,0.2008793,0.2048907,0.1728527,0.0618207,0.0160593,0.0412293,0.108602,0.0271533,-0.0193243,-0.0143373,0.0162043,-0.0086703,0.0708007,0.069035,0.0002173,0.0120353,-0.0099303,0.0637807,0.118,0.0113347,-0.0608843,-0.1971763,0.021994
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
SSA:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246

The minoan and mycenean show and extra CHG ancestry, the steppe in mycenean ranges from 15 to 3 %


minoan.jpg





The etruscan do not seem to need an extra CHG or IRN_N aside from few outliers.


etruschi 1.jpg
etruschi 2.jpg




On the contrary modern italian from central italy down shows it.
italiani 1.jpg
italiani 2.jpg



I don't know if these results are right or the jovialis model is.

[Stefano]

second part of central italian italian showing extra CHG/IRN

Immagine 2022-06-21 165452.jpg
italiani 5.jpg

[bicicleur]

Everywhere with the spread of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent comes association with increased Anatolian farmer DNA, I don’t believe it’s a Levantine innovation. South Caucasus G2a is a remnant of this, once the farmers moved in via Shulaveri-Shomu, it’s hard to dislodge them (or any large population from the Caucasus for that matter).

I wonder what is the difference between Natufian / Levantine PPNA and Central Anatolia Neo.
I haven't seen any models in which both are present.
I guess that both were the similar to Dzudzuana pré-LGM but then both were isolated and they had a different drift.

As I mentioned before Central Anatolia had contacts with both the Levant and the Eastern Taurus Mts through their obsidian trade which allready existed .
That is how they adopted herding and agriculture, they did not invent it.

Domestication is supposed to have happened in the Eastern Taurus Mts.
From there first herders arrived in Louristan some 10.000 years ago.
That is where the oldest Iran Neo has been sampled.

[Jovialis]

@Stefano, What is the goodness of their fit compared to the measure used in Dodecad? I am not keen on the measurement used by Eurogenes. The ones I used for the model were taken from comparing them to many other west Eurasian samples, that I used to model Europeans. These make for the best fit specifically for Italians.

[Angela]

Everywhere with the spread of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent comes association with increased Anatolian farmer DNA, I don’t believe it’s a Levantine innovation. South Caucasus G2a is a remnant of this, once the farmers moved in via Shulaveri-Shomu, it’s hard to dislodge them (or any large population from the Caucasus for that matter).

Sorry, but the FIRST crop farming happened in the Levant and the hills of upper Mesopotamia. Animal husbandry took place first in the Zagros Mountains.

These are well established facts. Please use the search engine to find the relevant threads and papers.

You wouldn't be related to Olympus Mons would you? I mention it because it would be a mistake to start spamming threads with comments about Shulaveri-Shomu. As with any topic, make your point and move one.

[bicicleur]

Where did E-L618 come from? Saying "E-V13 is a BA lineage" is a tautology, by default any lineage that exists today must have an ancestor lineage in the BA. Saying "E-V13 is an IE lineage" is also a tautology because by default every lineage that was present in most of BA Europe would have been part of an IE-speaking population. Not sure what you mean by Minoans but rest assured that J2a was a big player in ancient Greece. Or is J2a an "IE lineage" as well?

E-L618 was detected along the Croatian coast amongst Cardial Ware farmers.
E-V13 was confirmed in 7 ka Cardial Ware in Catalonia, but they were probably pré-E-V13, that is E-L618.

Some of these E-L618 Cardial Ware farmers were probably the ancestors of E-V13.

[Angela]

Indeed, and both were mostly Anatolia_N, which is what southern Europeans are mostly made up of as well. Thus the Roman Republic, and Empire are Southern European, Mediterranean inventions. Because imo, Latins, and Etruscans indeed fall in the Mediterranean continuum, making up one side of which it is a bracket for; the other side being Minoan.

Indeed. Here I am, 75% EEF and 25% steppe. :)

[Angela]

The origin of language families cannot be solved by genetics alone since it can be misleading, but rather genetics + linguistics. As far as i know the Proto Indo-European origin must be sought on the Steppes, the common flora and fauna words for IE indicates that.

Perhaps they know something more than we do, so let's wait what they have to say, i am expecting a lot of debate regarding this issue. I hope it's not liberal politicized move since science needs to be as it is.

Depends what the flora and fauna were like thousands of years ago in the region of northern Iran which they claim was the area where Anatolian was spoken, yes?

We'll have to see all their arguments before we come to conclusions.

Also, let's remember that if they're talking about the steppe being the 2nd stage, we have to go very far back in history. CT would have nothing to do with it; much too far west.