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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    I think we might see EV13 in a Yamnaya context here. EV13 is completely absent in Neolithic Europe. Out of hundreds of samples, all we have is 1 parent clade of EV13 in Spain, but not EV13 itself.

    Ultimately it might be part of the "West Asian" component Yamnaya absorbed early on. It's TMRCA is early Bronze Age and matches IE expansions.

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    I know that I stick my neck out with this because it is not an academic work, but according to my own SNP combination that I use to determine “Race” Yamnaya is of a large percentage part of the Irano-Indian origin (Eastern Fertile Crescent) and is not much related to European HGs:





    One Yamnaya sample is in a big cluster with various neolithic, Roman and Celtic related samples and may represent a more mixed type that is related to Corded Ware/Proto-Corded Ware:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I think we might see EV13 in a Yamnaya context here. EV13 is completely absent in Neolithic Europe. Out of hundreds of samples, all we have is 1 parent clade of EV13 in Spain, but not EV13 itself.

    Ultimately it might be part of the "West Asian" component Yamnaya absorbed early on. It's TMRCA is early Bronze Age and matches IE expansions.
    The most Eastern source for E-V13 I can think of would be the Neolithic groups on the steppe or close by, especially Tripolye-Cucuteni. If you look at it from another perspective, Michelsberger, Lengyel/Epi-Lengyel, Tiszapolgar/Bodrogkeresztr and Tripolye-Cucuteni being like pearls on a necklace from West to East and they all seem to have got at least some E1b1b. And some would be enough, because by about 5.000-4.500 BC we probably deal with a single ancestor which formed a clan, and this clan became more successful than other E1b1b/E-L618 clans.
    I think closer to the steppe and in the Carpathian zone is the most likely scenario, in particular because Cotofeni, which is in the ideal position and ancestral to the cultures I mentioned, being recognised as having one of the strongest non-steppe components, traditions of all the steppified groups. So they had steppe contacts and admixture, probably even became IE, but the local pre-steppe tradition was particularly strong in this region of the Carpathians. That's an ideal scenario for a local lineage doing better than elsewhere.



    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ian_extent.png

    Bigger picture for the relevant cultural formations (Epi-Lengyel remains to the North West of Tiszapolgar):



    E-V13 in the steppe environment is therefore perfectly plausible, but rather because of assimilated TCC/Tiszapolgar/Lengyel elements or backflow to the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    proto-indio-european origin at the eastern end of the southern arc
    according to some this is India
    the Out-of-India, here we go again
    can't we await the publication?
    I think they're probably talking about northwest Iran, perhaps where it abuts eastern Anatolia, Armenian lands etc., but as you say, we won't know for sure until we see the paper and if their evidence is convincing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I really believe it but Mossad etc. should check it.
    I just told them what I know and my role ends here.
    E-V13 is not so uncommon in Germany and Poland.
    did davidski ever showed his face to anyone
    in his avatar ?
    this is wolfgang haak by the way



    p.s
    yes i know e-v13 occure in germany

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    That's quite enough unsubstantiated rumor mongering. You're not going to drag this site into a defamation suit. I'm deleting all of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    did davidski ever showed his face to anyone
    No idea, not to me.
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    I think PIE homeland was in Eastern European Steppe.

    The idea that PIE went from Iran to the Steppe, and then back-migrated from the Steppe to Iran, is kind of against the principle of Ockham's Razor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I think PIE homeland was in Eastern European Steppe.
    The idea that PIE went from Iran to the Steppe, and then back-migrated from the Steppe to Iran, is kind of against the principle of Ockham's Razor.
    I agree with you on the conclusion, but not the argument. Because such forth- and backmigrations being actually extremely common and happened numerous times under various circumstances in prehistory. E.g. Sredny Stog (Lower-Middle Don) -> Proto-Corded Ware (Forest steppe) -> Expansion West and North -> back migration with Sintashta/Proto-Indoiranians to the steppe and displacing their Yamnaya cousins. So Corded Ware moved out of the steppe, just to come back some generations later and to replace those which pushed them.

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    I still stand by my earlier remark despite agreeing with both you guys. For such extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof is neccesary. Reich and Planck know this... hence lets wait and see. For all we know, given one recently published synopsium timetable, the topics indicate Armenia as a region holds a center stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Conference
    The Secondary Homelands of the Indo-European Languages (IG-AT2022)
    Guus KroonenMichaël Peyrot
    DateMonday 5 September 2022 - Wednesday 7 September 2022 Location P.J. Veth
    Nonnensteeg 1-3
    2311 VJ Leiden
    Room1.01We are pleased to announce that the next Arbeitstagung der Indogermanischen Gesellschaft will be held from 5 to 7 September 2022 at the Leiden University Centre for Linguistics. The event is currently planned to take place on site with the possibility of online attendance. In case travel proves difficult, we may shift to a hybrid or completely online event.


    Theme
    The field of Indo-European Linguistics currently finds itself at the center of a scientific revolution. Complementing the traditional arguments from archaeology and historical linguistics, advances in the study of ancient DNA and stable isotopes have opened a new line of evidence on the human past. It is the task of Indo-European linguistics to confront the resulting new challenges and opportunities. While the debate on the Proto-Indo-European homeland has been addressed by several large cross-disciplinary studies, key questions remain concerning the movements, settlements and secondary centers of spread of the Indo-European daughter branches. The aim of this conference is to evaluate existing and explore new linguistic hypotheses concerning the routes and secondary homelands of the branches of Indo-European after the split of the proto-language.


    Keynote speaker(s)
    Prof. David Emil Reich, Harvard Medical School, USA
    Prof. em. James P. Mallory, Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland
    Submission


    Preliminary Programme
    Day 1
    8:30-9:00 Registration
    9:00-9:30 Guus Kroonen and Michaël Peyrot Opening
    9:30-10:00 David Stifter The Celticisation of the Western Archipelago
    10:00-10:30 Paulus van Sluis The linguistic paleontology of beekeeping in Indo-European and Celtic
    10:30-11:00 Coffee break
    11:00-11:30 Andrew Wigman Unde vēnis: Approximating the Proto-Italic homeland using substrate lexemes
    11:30-12:00 Paul Widmer Detecting contact events between three Indo-European clades: Germanic, Celtic, Italic
    12:00-12:30 Dariusz Piwowarczyk Towards a cladistic approach to the reconstruction of the Proto-Indo-European roots
    12:30-14:00 Lunch break
    14:00-14:30 Olav Hackstein Albanian and Balkan Indo-European
    14:30-15:00 Katsiaryna Ackermann, Joachim Matzinger and Mario Gavranovic The Indo-Europeanization of the Balkans: Some new insights at the interface of Archaeology, archaeogenetics and historical linguistics
    15:00-15:30 Julia Sturm Local weather phenomena in the Indo-European daughter languages: A survey
    15:30-16:00 Coffee break
    16:00-17:00 Jim Mallory (Keynote lecture) Secondary homelands, primary problems


    Day 2
    9:00-9:30 Hrach Martirosyan Armenian animal designations
    9:30-10:00 Zsolt Simon The migration route of Proto-Armenian speakers in Neo-Hittite Anatolia: the evidence of loan contacts
    10:00-10:30 Rasmus Thorsø Armenian and the early Yamnaya migrations
    10.30-11.00 Coffee break
    11:00-11:30 Petr Kocharov Proto-Armenian phonetic contact phenomena
    11:30-12:00 Louise Friis Testing an Indo-Tocharian isogloss: *e/o-presents in Tocharian
    12:00-12:30 Stefan Norbruis The position of Tocharian in the Indo-European language family
    12:30-14:00 Lunch break
    14:00-14:30 Rasmus Bjørn The Goldilocks Zone: Bronze Age Wanderwörter in Central Asia – Linguistic evidence for Indo-European in Afanasievo
    14:30-15:00 Abel Warries Contacts between Tocharian and Uralic: when and where?
    15:00-15:30 Michaël Peyrot The tertiary homeland of Tocharian: On the drivers and the chronology of the trajectory to the Tarim Basin
    15:30-16:00 Coffee break
    17:30-18:30 David Reich (Keynote lecture) The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe
    19:00 onward Conference dinner


    Day 3
    9:00-9:30 Harald Bichlmeier On the Slavic settlement of North-Eastern Bavaria
    9:30-10:00 Anthony Jakob The West Uralic substrate and the Baltic homeland
    10:00-10:30 Eugen Hill Secondary homelands of the Slavs and the evolution of Proto-Slavonic phonology
    10.30-11.00 Coffee break
    11:00-11:30 Guus Kroonen, Anthony Jakob, Axel Palmér and Paulus van Sluis A Northwest Pontic homeland for the core Indo-European languages
    11:30-12:00 Axel Palmér Assessing the value of Indo-Slavic lexical isoglosses as evidence for a Corded Ware origin of Indo-Iranian
    12:00-12:30 Thomas Olander and Simon Poulsen Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic
    12:30-14:00 Lunch break
    14:00-14:30 Chams Bernard and Sampsa Holopainen Iranian migrations: Uralic and Tocharian evidence
    14:30-15:00 Roland Pooth Steppe burial rites and the building of a kurgan in the Atharvaveda
    15:00-15:30 Martin Kümmel The homelands of Indo-Iranic
    15:30-16:00 Coffee break
    16:00-16:50 Discussion session
    16:50-17:00 Guus Kroonen and Michaël Peyrot Closing remarks
    Publication
    Conference proceedings will be published with Reichert Verlag. The deadline for final drafts of accepted papers is 30 November 2022.


    We look forward to welcoming you in Leiden!


    The chairs,


    Guus Kroonen & Michaël Peyrot — with the assistance of Axel I. Palmér & Louise S. Friis.


    On behalf of the Indogermanische Gesellschaft, Daniel Kölligan, Agnes Korn & Birgit Olsen.


    https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en...-1,day-2,day-3

    So who knows what is in those 730 samples. That's a significant proportion to what's established with well sampled areas, let alone some very undersampled or totally lacking areas. We can not pretend to know, before the data points, what they lead to. Me personally, am more exited about the raw data, and the dust to settle, than any thesis, although I admit the thesis is quite interesting to begin with.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I still stand by my earlier remark despite agreeing with both you guys. For such extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof is neccesary. Reich and Planck know this... hence lets wait and see. For all we know, given one recently published synopsium timetable, the topics indicate Armenia as a region holds a center stage.




    So who knows what is in those 730 samples. That's a significant proportion to what's established with well sampled areas, let alone some very undersampled or totally lacking areas. We can not pretend to know, before the data points, what they lead to. Me personally, am more exited about the raw data, and the dust to settle, than any thesis, although I admit the thesis is quite interesting to begin with.
    Same, more interested in the raw data than the IE homeland theory. Whether it’s the steppe, eastern “Southern Arc” or elsewhere is “all the same.” Reich is soft-walking his conclusion/finding at this point, it seems, gently intruducing it rather than making a stronger declaration. No need for the steppe proponents to get too bent out of shape right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Same, more interested in the raw data than the IE homeland theory. Whether it’s the steppe, eastern “Southern Arc” or elsewhere is “all the same.” Reich is soft-walking his conclusion/finding at this point, it seems, gently intruducing it rather than making a stronger declaration. No need for the steppe proponents to get too bent out of shape right now.
    Yep, good observation. Even the paper itself got postponed by months, broken into three different papers, depending how much validity the rumors hold.

    At the end of the day no matter the topic or data, differing opinions and hypotheses are the norm for most scientific fields, let alone ones as vague as anthrogenetics. The day the data will speak for itself, whether we like it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The most Eastern source for E-V13 I can think of would be the Neolithic groups on the steppe or close by, especially Tripolye-Cucuteni. If you look at it from another perspective, Michelsberger, Lengyel/Epi-Lengyel, Tiszapolgar/Bodrogkereszt�r and Tripolye-Cucuteni being like pearls on a necklace from West to East and they all seem to have got at least some E1b1b. And some would be enough, because by about 5.000-4.500 BC we probably deal with a single ancestor which formed a clan, and this clan became more successful than other E1b1b/E-L618 clans.
    We have some samples from Tiszapolgar/Bodrogkeresztúr from a recent study about skeletal health in the Neolithic-BA transition. These samples are from Harvard and will be presented 'properly' in an upcoming publication. They could be in the Southern Arc, in which case maybe we get additional samples from neighbouring cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    did davidski ever showed his face to anyone
    in his avatar ?
    this is wolfgang haak by the way



    p.s
    yes i know e-v13 occure in germany

    I have seen davidski photo years ago


    Haak was working in Adelaide Australia for many years ...............they are different people
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I have seen davidski photo years ago
    Haak was working in Adelaide Australia for many years ...............they are different people
    thanks
    thats what i thought also
    they can't be the same person either way as haak is e-v13
    and davidski is R1a

    p.s
    as angela said lets not drill this thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yep, good observation. Even the paper itself got postponed by months, broken into three different papers, depending how much validity the rumors hold.

    At the end of the day no matter the topic or data, differing opinions and hypotheses are the norm for most scientific fields, let alone ones as vague as anthrogenetics. The day the data will speak for itself, whether we like it or not.
    Reich seems to make good publicitiy for his papers to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Yes but how e-v13 arrived to cyprus ?
    (Modern greek cypriot have 10-13% e-v13)
    There were mycenaean settlers to cyprus around
    1200 bc or something.
    Source wikipedia:
    During the late Bronze Age, the island experienced two waves of Greek settlement.[54] The first wave consisted of Mycenaean Greek traders who started visiting Cyprus around 1400 BC.[55][56][57] A major wave of Greek settlement is believed to have taken place following the late Bronze Age collapse of Mycenaean Greece from 1100 to 1050 BC, with the island's predominantly Greek character dating from this period.[57][58]
    It might not be there dominant lines: like j2a, r1b-z2103
    Could e-v13 be present among them just as a minor line ?
    I wouldn't exclude E-V13 to by in Mycenaean Greeks, but I rather think it came with Channelled Ware and related cremating groups at the very end of the Late Bronze Age, while Mycenaean Greeks came at the MBA-LBA transition, during the upheavals of the chariot complex, presumably with MCW-related groups.

    Cyprus was in the midst of the Sea Peoples storm, and we know from the records that Channelled Ware participated in the Sea Peoples movement. There are also Palestine-Libanese-Syrian E-V13 (primary) and J-L283 (secondary) lineages of interest which look like they arrived about 1.300-1.200 BC. The incoming conquerors, in part, formed warbands with local Mycenaeans too, so a complex mix of people, including Eastern Urnfield/Channelled Ware, Mycenaeans and Urnfielders and West Mediterranean people from around Italy, all moved with Sea Peoples to Cyprus.

    However, I think the bulk of E-V13 arrived at Cyprus later, with Doric and later Greek-Thracian movements.

    More about the Sea Peoples in this context:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post856167

    Direct link to the relevant archaeological paper:
    https://www.gu.se/en/research/the-co...ples-in-cyprus

    Note again that both the Naue II swords and the "Barbarian Ware" being nearly identical in the Italian Protovillanovan and the Gva sphere. They being so close to each other, that the first researchers which already knew Protovillanovan, but didn't know what they discovered, labelled Gva simply "Protovillanovan" in style. And yes, they are fairly close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I wouldn't exclude E-V13 to by in Mycenaean Greeks, but I rather think it came with Channelled Ware and related cremating groups at the very end of the Late Bronze Age, while Mycenaean Greeks came at the MBA-LBA transition, during the upheavals of the chariot complex, presumably with MCW-related groups............

    Do you know whether cremation or inhumation was common among Classical Greeks? Or both?



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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post

    Do you know whether cremation or inhumation was common among Classical Greeks? Or both?


    Both, but Athenians practiced it moreso than Spartans.

    Weird enough cremation on a pyre was practiced among Hittites as well (i don't know exactly their complete ritual which is essential on determining the origin of the practice instead of just cremation vs inhumation), the burial of horses with chariots indicate some kind of Carpathian basin contacts. I am quite hesitant how Hittites ended up in Anatolia. Bulgarian leaks from Stamov indicated that Reich believes that they came via Bulgaria to Anatolia during Early Bronze Age. Let's see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Both, but Athenians practiced it moreso than Spartans.
    Weird enough cremation on a pyre was practiced among Hittites as well (i don't know exactly their complete ritual which is essential on determining the origin of the practice instead of just cremation vs inhumation), the burial of horses with chariots indicate some kind of Carpathian basin contacts. I am quite hesitant how Hittites ended up in Anatolia. Bulgarian leaks from Stamov indicated that Reich believes that they came via Bulgaria to Anatolia during Early Bronze Age. Let's see.
    that was David Anthony's theory 15 years ago, but it was rejected by the first major paper on steppe DNA
    it was the paper with DNA from southeastern Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    that was David Anthony's theory 15 years ago, but it was rejected by the first major paper on steppe DNA
    Y-DNA chromosome subclade mutations will show a more accurate picture than autosomal analysis. If R1b-Z2103 appears among Hittites, and some R1b-Z2103 ancestral to Hittite appears in Ezero Culture or somewhere in a Yamnaya context in Carpathian Basin or inner Balkans then that's a starting point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    No, slightly amusing that he's instilled some kind of PTSD because of his obsession with those guys though. I'm Jewish, he isn't.

    You probably shouldn't talk down to someone who you have no idea about by the way, because the first instance of true agriculture likely did happen in SE Anatolia (Mureybet, slightly South of here, was the first in a Natufian-related context if memory serves). I'm not claiming agriculture originated in Central Anatolia, but that agriculturalists in Central Anatolia originated in SE Anatolia (I'm aware of the paper claiming agriculture was adopted by Mesolithic Anatolians, but the model better fits a closely related neighbour moving in instead). Consequently you *do* see Anatolian-like DNA spreading around the Fertile Crescent upon the onset of agriculture - both to the Levant and to the Zagros. Compare Levant_N to Natufian Mesolithic samples. I assume these would be G2a carrying peoples for several reasons, and that the G2a in say Georgia is from these first communities: Shulaveri-Shomu was just that local to the Caucasus. I see S-S as Kartvelian and sharing a genetic clade with Indo-Hittite. Levantine and Zagrosian populations appear to have only picked up slight admixture with Anatolian farmers (SE Anatolians properly, modelled using Anatolian farmers by proxy), as compared to the swamping that occurred in Anatolia itself and the Balkans where farmers near-completely replaced.
    I don't know who you are or who you think you are, and I don't care. What I do know is that I don't like your tone. You could have made your point without the snarkiness and the arrogance. Change it or go elsewhere.

    "Likely", and no citations on point won't even buy you a coffee, especially as your "Anatolian" agricultural site is, as you state, a Natufian one.

    I'll stick with the paper, thanks all the same.

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    [/]Eurasian DNA has posted a little more detailed overview of this at https://Eurasiandna.com with a map of the southern arc

    At Eurasian DNA we have been using short segment IBD analyses for the past 2 years for fine-scale work and it appears that Reich’s team is also starting to use it as well. We use short segment IBD analyses to distinguish more recent shared drift from more ancient shared genetic drift. For example, performing SNP by SNP comparison of two genomes such as used by many of the tools available to us will not necessarily tell us whether a West Eurasian individual shows a high genetic similarity to Yamnaya due to shared common ancestral components such as ENF, EHG, CHG, or whether this genetic similarity with Yamnaya is due to actual admixture from Yamnaya…….

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