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Thread: David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Italian Chalcolithic farmers if I'm not mistaken did not come from Etruria but from the Marche region, which has no much archeological connection with the Prehistoric Etruscan world. The only Villanovan settlement (therefore Etruscan) in the Marche, at Fermo, is considered a colonization from Verucchio in northern Italy that occurred between the late Bronze and early Iron Age and was assimilated quite early by the Picenes (I don't remember whether 5th or 4th century BC.). Samples to prove this are lacking. While it is indeed possible that there is some Iran_N signal dating to Chalcolithic/Neolithic also in Etruria, within the discourse on the origins of the Etruscans to argue to the current state of knowledge too nonchalantly that they had Iran_N is no different than to argue for other fringe or superseded theories.
    The Picenes origin is Sabine ( Ver Sacrum ) ...............they moved ( circa 750BC ) from the mountains of middle Italy to the Adriatic coast , living with the Liburnian colonies, one being Tronto, Martininscuro etc .............the Liburnians either merged with the Picene or left italy by 440BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post

    Do you know whether cremation or inhumation was common among Classical Greeks? Or both?


    Cremation was regionally concentrated, but:

    he Greek and Roman worlds went through cycles of centuries
    when cremation or inhumation was the dominant funerary
    rite, and at times inhumation and cremation were practiced
    simultaneously. So far, no convincing, simple and clear-cut
    explanation for this phenomenon has been found. Homer
    mentions cremation exclusively as a burial rite in theIliadand
    Odyssey, and the funerals of Patroclos (Il. 23, 161), Hector (Il.
    24, 778.), Elpenor (Od. 12, 11–15) and Achilles (Od. 24,
    65) are described in detail. Illustrations of cremation can be
    viewed on Greek vases from the Geometric Period onwards
    (Boardman 1998).
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ked_to_beliefs

    The Geometric period succeeded the tumultous period with Barbarian Ware and foreign influences. Some of the invaders seem to have been pushed out by Greeks to the North, while some others stayed and being assimilated. In any case their cultural influences stayed, the new ideas, which included the cremation urn burials, especially common in e.g. Athens. But that might have been more of a later fashion.

    The second important Early Iron Age phenomenon is the expansion of the use of secondary crema-
    tion. The chronological development of this practice can be documented is the same way as in the rest
    of Greece with a first more prominent reappearance around the 12th–11th centuries BCE, especially in
    the north, at cemeteries such as Apsalos “Verpen”39 and Palio Gynaikokastro.40 These structures recall
    those of the western Rhodopes near Nevrokopi41 or those found in the cremation cemeteries attribut-
    ed to the so-called transitional period (end of the 12th–11th century BCE) identified further in the north
    at cemeteries such as Klučka near Hippodrome of Skopje,42 considered as the heir of the Donja Brnjica
    culture, which develops from the middle of the 2nd millennium BCE in the south of Serbia and in Kosovo
    and which expands from the south Morava toward the southern Balkans.4
    The "transitional period" = the main timing for the first and biggest E-V13 expansion down into the Balkans.

    In
    Greece, the development and origins of cremation after the collapse of the Mycenaean palaces have
    long been debated, with proponents of the Balkan and eastern origins or the role played by northern
    Italy.45 Regarding the data, northern Greece seems to be on the crossroads of several traditions, show-
    ing that there is not a single answer to this crucial issue
    https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02902269/document

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    You're not following, I never claimed Mureybet was Anatolian. It's simply that Anatolian ancestry rises globally in the Fertile Crescent with the spread of agriculture. Archaeologically, this makes more sense as being SE Anatolian rather than Central Anatolian. Mesolithic Anatolian samples do differ from Neolithic Anatolian samples (both Central), so another population - less proximal in the direction of European HGs in PCA plots - mixed in. Neolithic Anatolian samples shift slightly "Eastwards" as compared to Mesolithic Anatolian samples, and this is associated with transition to the Neolithic: put it like that. It could be the case that it follows the same pattern as with the Levant and Zagros populations, ie contact and slight admixture with Anatolian-like farmers -> Neolithic package adopted, but replacement of Central Anatolians by SE Anatolians makes more sense as the Y DNA is transformed to G2a-predominant whereas this isn't the case with the Levantine and Zagrosian farmers. There's very notable stylistic links between Catalhoyuk and Gobekli Tepe, Nevali Cori etc too, see the Tepe Telegrams blog.

    We're both argumentative it seems so I won't be petty
    What I am is an attorney by trade who has been trained to be allergic to mounds of verbiage unattached to any actual, verifiable facts. I attempt, given the setting, to say in more "diplomatic" language, "I OBJECT: SPECULATION, LACK OF FOUNDATION".

    Of course, this isn't a court of law, so you can speculate as much as you want, and I'm free to discount anything untethered to verifiable facts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    [/]Eurasian DNA has posted a little more detailed overview of this at https://Eurasiandna.com with a map of the southern arc
    They out to be a bit more careful with their definitions. Eneolithic steppe did not have ENF. Later groups coming out of the steppe did.

    Doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    Attachment 13381

    From the same team, 2022 The genomic origins of the world’s first farmers
    I could just as well read this as showing what I believe the Reich group hints at: Levantine genetics (including its partial Natufian ancestry) spreading north into Anatolia, and then Anatolian Neolithic people, now carrying some Natufian, spreading eventually into Europe.

    The maps also show what may be a presence of "Anatolian HGs" in the Levant, with perhaps Natufian a later intrusive element.

    Hopefully, the paper will clarify what the actual data shows, so I have no personal desire to speculate further.

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    Below are the probable locations of unpublished Anatolian samples:

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5-rvA6IqH...nt_samples.jpg

    Since we learned there were Anatolian names in Armi-Ebla around 2500 BC the chance of Anatolian-Caucasus homeland was higher but i am still not sure how they will connect Southern and Steppe populations genetically. Maybe they found some native R1b subclade in Eastern Anatolia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    I know that I stick my neck out with this because it is not an academic work, but according to my own SNP combination that I use to determine “Race” Yamnaya is of a large percentage part of the Irano-Indian origin (Eastern Fertile Crescent) and is not much related to European HGs:
    1. If so, I think PIE speaker on north Iran migrated to south asia before steppe people entered there.

    2. Which kumsay sample is related to afanasievo?
    As I mentioned before, Kumsay culture belongs to yamna culture. However, Harvard people separated them from yamna culture as EHG from WSHG.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I tend to agree, but I think you mean from contemporaneous Iron/Republican age Anatolian/Middle East populations. However, I would be cautious with over generalizing since the Antonio et al 2019 paper did document some Iranian Neolithic ancestry in the Republican/Iron Age, which might not be exactly the same as the Iranian ancestry from the Iron Age/Republican age, which is likely the case. In addition, in the Neolithic period, there was a substantial increase in Early European Farmer related DNA (Anatolian Farmers) and Iranian Farmers as well.

    Now if you want to argue the 11 Republican/Iron Age Romans are "non elites" like some of the dogmatic Indo-European Steppe blogger/website groupies or the more Nordicist types, then you are back to the same way of thinking that was out there regarding the Mycenean Greeks.
    Well, at least one sample was described as coming from a wealthy grave, so, there is an "elite" sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    Where does Reich say that? Not being belligerent, just curious
    I said "hinted" to be precise, not stated.

    "discover that it was admixture of Natufian-related ancestry from the Levant—mediated by Mesopotamian and Levantine farmers, and marked by at least two expansions associated with dispersal of pre-pottery and pottery cultures—that generated a pan-West Asian Neolithic continuum."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, at least one sample was described as coming from a wealthy grave, so, there is an "elite" sample.
    Angela you are correct. I went back looked at Lazaradis et al 2014 and the elite Mycenean was no different in terms of admixture relative to the other Myceneans, and the Steppe for the 4 Myceneans ranged from 4 to 16%. I thought I had posted the cite from the paper in this thread, but maybe not. Anyway, from the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper:

    "The Minoans could be modelled as a mixture of the Anatolia Neolithic-related substratum with additional ‘eastern’ ancestry, but the other two groups had additional ancestry: the Mycenaeans had approximately 4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia (Table 1), while the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations. The elite(emphasis mine) Mycenaean individual from the ‘royal’ tomb at Peristeria in the western Peloponnese did not differ genetically from the other three Mycenaean individuals buried in common graves" [p.216].

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    I think this study clearly says Mycenaean culture didn't relate to a mass migration from the Steppe and it didn't spread in Greece by an elite minority who had steppe ancestry.

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    David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    I think this study clearly says Mycenaean culture didn't relate to a mass migration from the Steppe and it didn't spread in Greece by an elite minority who had steppe ancestry.
    It seem no northern route ( or model) for the Mycenaean after all. Such pity, there were so many people here that defended that model so vigorously.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Angela you are correct. I went back looked at Lazaradis et al 2014 and the elite Mycenean was no different in terms of admixture relative to the other Myceneans, and the Steppe for the 4 Myceneans ranged from 4 to 16%. I thought I had posted the cite from the paper in this thread, but maybe not. Anyway, from the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper:

    "The Minoans could be modelled as a mixture of the Anatolia Neolithic-related substratum with additional ‘eastern’ ancestry, but the other two groups had additional ancestry: the Mycenaeans had approximately 4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia (Table 1), while the Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations. The elite(emphasis mine) Mycenaean individual from the ‘royal’ tomb at Peristeria in the western Peloponnese did not differ genetically from the other three Mycenaean individuals buried in common graves" [p.216].
    The open questions in that study was from where the Mycenaean came from. Northern or Eastern model? I believe now will have answer about this.


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    I think the northern route is still likely. It is just that it seems steppe and social status didn't exactly go hand-in-hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think the northern route is still likely. It is just that it seems steppe and social status didn't exactly go hand-in-hand.
    It chances from likely have become remote.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    I think this study clearly says Mycenaean culture didn't relate to a mass migration from the Steppe and it didn't spread in Greece by an elite minority who had steppe ancestry.
    There is an upcoming paper which, in the abstract, clearly stated that "Central European" ancestry arrived in Greece in the Late Bronze Age (for the Aegean about 1.600 BC), which would correspond to the chariot complex and MCA/Catacomb intrusion.

    Our results indicate multi-phased genetic shifts in the Aegean populations since the early Neolithic that can be traced to populations related to Anatolia and then, during the Late Bronze Age, to Central-Eastern Europe.
    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=2323

    As for Anatolia, they need to sample Cernavoda and related West Anatolian formations. Before they have done that, which could relate to a constant decrease of steppe ancestry on the way, we're not talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There is an upcoming paper which, in the abstract, clearly stated that "Central European" ancestry arrived in Greece in the Late Bronze Age (for the Aegean about 1.600 BC), which would correspond to the chariot complex and MCA/Catacomb intrusion.



    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=2323

    As for Anatolia, they need to sample Cernavoda and related West Anatolian formations. Before they have done that, which could relate to a constant decrease of steppe ancestry on the way, we're not talking.
    Mycenaean and Greece are not the same thing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Mycenaean and Greece are not the same thing.


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    Greece during Middle to Late Bronze Age would be synonymously called Mycenae in archaeological records. I think that it's inevitable that there was an incursion from the North, and those people not neccessarily happen to be 100% Yamnaya, they might have been 30% Yamnaya, 70% EEF themselves hence masking true admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Greece during Middle to Late Bronze Age would be synonymously called Mycenae in archaeological records. I think that it's inevitable that there was an incursion from the North, and those people not neccessarily happen to be 100% Yamnaya, they might have been 30% Yamnaya, 70% EEF themselves hence masking true admixture.
    Yes, Mycenaean is synonymous with Greece.

    As for the admixture, the migration could have happened in stages and its possible to likely that the chariot complex did just push groups further South, which had already mixed in the North Balkan/Carpathian sphere before. Therefore there is no need for a big steppe-like infusion at that time, but going by the results, it will be really significant and fairly Northern.

    Considering the social stratification, Greece was always more special in this respect, as is Anatolia, therefore I expect big differences between communities. Greek tongue just prevailed, as did IE Anatolian, but it was no replacement event, not comparable with Bell Beakers or the like. I guess that ancestry and social class will be correlated, but not everywhere the same way, depending on which founder lineages had a say in which community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, at least one sample was described as coming from a wealthy grave, so, there is an "elite" sample.
    It is R1016, Castel de Decima, my closest sample from Antonio et al, and to the best of my recollection it's by no means the most "northern" of the samples, despite the fact it's very old.

    Castel di DecimaDate range: 900 BCE - 700 BCEIndividuals: R1016

    "The excavations at Castel di Decima returned about 400 pit inhumations, dating back to a period of timebetween the beginning of the eighth century BCE and the end of the seventh century BCE.... they have all provided funerary objects ofparticular interest, among which some of considerable wealth emerge, attributable to figures ofaristocratic rank and their family groups which characterize the Lazio and Tyrrhenian societies in generalfrom the Orientalizing period (121)."

    The devil is often in the details; it pays to carefully read each bit of factual material before coming to any conclusions.

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    Imperial Romans were obviously Republican Italians mostly from Central regions admixed with East Med people chiefly from Anatolia and Levant. The tail to Middle East dissapeared because they were mixed out of existence with Native Italians. If it was otherwise Central Italians would not be significantly more southern shifted than Latins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    It chances from likely have become remote.


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    Would you care to explain why? Actually it is already settled, unless the eastern route also brought WSH ancestry into Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Imperial Romans are obviously Republican Italians mostly from Central regions admixed with East Med people chiefly from Anatolia and Levant. The tail to Middle East dissapeared because they were mixed out of existence with Native Italians. If it was otherwise Central Italians would not be significantly more southern shifted than Latins.
    As far as modern papers go, modern Italians don't show any excess of Levantine ancestry, despite what people on other fora might blabber, and they get modelled at most with "Minoan" as their pre-IE substratum; of course I do not read it as meaning there is literally Minoan ancestry in Italians,but it betokens just an encrease in CHG compared to IA inhabitants of Italy, which also happened in the Balkans.

    Some Anatolian contribution is possible, but let's not forget that half of the Imperial samples were part of the "mediterranean cluster", similar to 437 and 850 that already were found in Italy in the republic, and overall more similar to Greeks than to Anatolians and Levantines.

    It is really hard for me to see how even before citizenship was granted to all Roman subjects Italy experienced a genetic turn over due to migration from the east, when most people from there were not citizens. Furthermore we mustn't forget we lack data from south Italy, needed before drawing conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The open questions in that study was from where the Mycenaean came from. Northern or Eastern model? I believe now will have answer about this.


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    blevins: That is a different question which is more of trying to answer the homeland for PIE, i.e. where did the original PIE speakers come from and how did IE language spread. That is an interesting question but not one that I say interests me as much as the genetic admixture makeup of the Myceneans. As we have seen with the Etruscans and Latins, genetics and language do not always go together perfectly. The key finding in that paper (Lazaradis et al 2014), from my perspective, is that the Myceneans and Minoans were genetically similar and that the 4 Myceneans tested in this paper had 4 to 16% Steppe ancestry. Thus, they were genetically very similar to modern Southern Europeans. They were not similar Northern Europeans in that they had > 50% Steppe ancestry contrary to the longstanding Nordicist narrative nor were they, particularly in the case of the Minoans, genetically the same as Nubians as some of the strident Afro-centrist types were claiming here in the USA back in the 1980's and 1990's and even up to the 2000's.

    So the PIE homeland and the route of its expansion into Europe is interesting and one that I follow, the genetics of the peoples in ancient Greece and Rome are of a higher priority in terms of interest for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^If my memory serves it's different, as I alluded to above. Renfrew believed that the Anatolian language was brought to Europe by Anatolian farmers who went from western Anatolia to Greece and the Balkans.

    From what I can tell, the Reich researchers specifically renounce the idea that the Anatolian parent, perhaps? of the Indo-European languages was born in central or western Anatolia; instead they seem to posit it was "born" in the far eastern portion of the Southern Arc in northern Iran.

    The second staging ground for them appears to be the steppe, whereas for Renfrew, if memory serves, it was the Balkans.

    They don't say how that language got onto the steppe, the "second staging" ground. My hunch, if that is correct, is that perhaps the route was north along the Caucasus Mountains or the Caspian or even perhaps along the Black Sea, and from there onto the steppe.

    This latter part about the Reich Lab hypothesis could be wrong, however. It's just my speculation. We'll have to wait and see.
    Thank you, it's definitely different.

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