David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[kingjohn]

Rather post-Mycenaean, especially Doric Greeks and Thracians. The problem of cremation remains, for a time, but with classical Greek and Thracian samples, we will see whether they arrived before the LBA.
Mycenaean Greeks might be more R-Z2103 and J2a probably.

Yes but how e-v13 arrived to cyprus ?
(Modern greek cypriot have 10-13% e-v13)
There were mycenaean settlers to cyprus around
1200 bc or something.
Source wikipedia:
During the late Bronze Age, the island experienced two waves of Greek settlement.[54] The first wave consisted of Mycenaean Greek traders who started visiting Cyprus around 1400 BC.[55][56][57] A major wave of Greek settlement is believed to have taken place following the late Bronze Age collapse of Mycenaean Greece from 1100 to 1050 BC, with the island's predominantly Greek character dating from this period.[57][58]

It might not be there dominant lines: like j2a, r1b-z2103
Could e-v13 be present among them just as a minor line ?

 

[brick]

0.002 with g25= 2.000 with k12 so they are all around 3-4.



I do not have an opinion on the creator of g25 coordinates and i don't know how good they are, but it seems that the general consensus on them is favorable.
I just see them as a tool and they seems to give coherent results. Anyway they catch the extra CHG/Iran in modern italians, so why should they fail with ancient samples, if such ancestry is present in them?

I don't think they are all very precise instruments but the results come out similar to yours also by using averages with your model.

Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N decreases Iran/CHG/Natufian to all.

 

[brick]

Can someone explain to me whether this Reich's hypothesis is the same as Renfrew's?

 

[bigsnake49]

Where did E-L618 come from? Saying "E-V13 is a BA lineage" is a tautology, by default any lineage that exists today must have an ancestor lineage in the BA. Saying "E-V13 is an IE lineage" is also a tautology because by default every lineage that was present in most of BA Europe would have been part of an IE-speaking population. Not sure what you mean by Minoans but rest assured that J2a was a big player in ancient Greece. Or is J2a an "IE lineage" as well?

G2a is also a big player in Ancient Greece and it's not IE.

 

[Angela]

^^If my memory serves it's different, as I alluded to above. Renfrew believed that the Anatolian language was brought to Europe by Anatolian farmers who went from western Anatolia to Greece and the Balkans.

From what I can tell, the Reich researchers specifically renounce the idea that the Anatolian parent, perhaps? of the Indo-European languages was born in central or western Anatolia; instead they seem to posit it was "born" in the far eastern portion of the Southern Arc in northern Iran.

The second staging ground for them appears to be the steppe, whereas for Renfrew, if memory serves, it was the Balkans.

They don't say how that language got onto the steppe, the "second staging" ground. My hunch, if that is correct, is that perhaps the route was north along the Caucasus Mountains or the Caspian or even perhaps along the Black Sea, and from there onto the steppe.

This latter part about the Reich Lab hypothesis could be wrong, however. It's just my speculation. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[bigsnake49]

Indeed. Here I am, 75% EEF and 25% steppe.

Ha, I'm 55% EEF, 22% steppe and 23% HG. No idea if it's CHG or any other HG.

 

[bigsnake49]

i wish for e-v13's in our forum
that e-v13 will finally be found in mycenaean remains

Why? Why would it matter to you?

 

[kingjohn]

Why? Why would it matter to you?

No special reason
I just think it would be cool if some mycenaean
Were E thats all:cool-v:

 

[Angela]

Ha, I'm 55% EEF, 22% steppe and 23% HG. No idea if it's CHG or any other HG.

It depends on which analysis you use.

I still like Haak et al, which is actually mostly Lazaridis et al, imo, because their admixture chart is not based on a simple admixture run.

Yamnaya, of course, is made up of two HGs: EHG and CHG.

As a mixture of Northern Italian and Tuscan like ancestry (eastern Ligurian and northwest Tuscan), I have some additional WHG in there too, along with the WHG within LBK.

There are other analyses too.

Lots of ways of looking at the same thing.

 

[bicicleur 2]

proto-indio-european origin at the eastern end of the southern arc

according to some this is India
the Out-of-India, here we go again

can't we await the publication?

 

[enter_tain]

I think we might see EV13 in a Yamnaya context here. EV13 is completely absent in Neolithic Europe. Out of hundreds of samples, all we have is 1 parent clade of EV13 in Spain, but not EV13 itself.

Ultimately it might be part of the "West Asian" component Yamnaya absorbed early on. It's TMRCA is early Bronze Age and matches IE expansions.

 

[Doggerland]

I know that I stick my neck out with this because it is not an academic work, but according to my own SNP combination that I use to determine “Race” Yamnaya is of a large percentage part of the Irano-Indian origin (Eastern Fertile Crescent) and is not much related to European HGs:





One Yamnaya sample is in a big cluster with various neolithic, Roman and Celtic related samples and may represent a more mixed type that is related to Corded Ware/Proto-Corded Ware:

 

[kingjohn]

I'm a lady, so I won't say what I think should be done with Polako's G25.

angela great sense of humor
i laugh so hard till it hurts

 

[Riverman]

I think we might see EV13 in a Yamnaya context here. EV13 is completely absent in Neolithic Europe. Out of hundreds of samples, all we have is 1 parent clade of EV13 in Spain, but not EV13 itself.

Ultimately it might be part of the "West Asian" component Yamnaya absorbed early on. It's TMRCA is early Bronze Age and matches IE expansions.

The most Eastern source for E-V13 I can think of would be the Neolithic groups on the steppe or close by, especially Tripolye-Cucuteni. If you look at it from another perspective, Michelsberger, Lengyel/Epi-Lengyel, Tiszapolgar/Bodrogkereszt?r and Tripolye-Cucuteni being like pearls on a necklace from West to East and they all seem to have got at least some E1b1b. And some would be enough, because by about 5.000-4.500 BC we probably deal with a single ancestor which formed a clan, and this clan became more successful than other E1b1b/E-L618 clans.
I think closer to the steppe and in the Carpathian zone is the most likely scenario, in particular because Cotofeni, which is in the ideal position and ancestral to the cultures I mentioned, being recognised as having one of the strongest non-steppe components, traditions of all the steppified groups. So they had steppe contacts and admixture, probably even became IE, but the local pre-steppe tradition was particularly strong in this region of the Carpathians. That's an ideal scenario for a local lineage doing better than elsewhere.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Cucuteni_Trypillian_extent.png

Bigger picture for the relevant cultural formations (Epi-Lengyel remains to the North West of Tiszapolgar):

E-V13 in the steppe environment is therefore perfectly plausible, but rather because of assimilated TCC/Tiszapolgar/Lengyel elements or backflow to the steppe.

 

[Angela]

proto-indio-european origin at the eastern end of the southern arc
according to some this is India
the Out-of-India, here we go again
can't we await the publication?

I think they're probably talking about northwest Iran, perhaps where it abuts eastern Anatolia, Armenian lands etc., but as you say, we won't know for sure until we see the paper and if their evidence is convincing.

 

[kingjohn]

I really believe it but Mossad etc. should check it.
I just told them what I know and my role ends here.
E-V13 is not so uncommon in Germany and Poland.

did davidski ever showed his face to anyone
in his avatar ?
this is wolfgang haak by the way

p.s
yes i know e-v13 occure in germany

 

[Angela]

That's quite enough unsubstantiated rumor mongering. You're not going to drag this site into a defamation suit. I'm deleting all of it.

 

[Tomenable]

did davidski ever showed his face to anyone

No idea, not to me.

 

[Tomenable]

I think PIE homeland was in Eastern European Steppe.

The idea that PIE went from Iran to the Steppe, and then back-migrated from the Steppe to Iran, is kind of against the principle of Ockham's Razor.

 

[Riverman]

I think PIE homeland was in Eastern European Steppe.
The idea that PIE went from Iran to the Steppe, and then back-migrated from the Steppe to Iran, is kind of against the principle of Ockham's Razor.

I agree with you on the conclusion, but not the argument. Because such forth- and backmigrations being actually extremely common and happened numerous times under various circumstances in prehistory. E.g. Sredny Stog (Lower-Middle Don) -> Proto-Corded Ware (Forest steppe) -> Expansion West and North -> back migration with Sintashta/Proto-Indoiranians to the steppe and displacing their Yamnaya cousins. So Corded Ware moved out of the steppe, just to come back some generations later and to replace those which pushed them.