David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Northener]

I may have expressed myself badly. I didn't mean that you generalized ANE being blonde, I meant that the variant in that individual is probably not the same variant causing blonde hair in Europe today. There are several different variants and I think it's likely that they emerged in Europe without a necessary link with ANE. Many Siberian peoples have A LOT of ANE ancestry and do not have light eyes or light hair. Udmurt is one of the exceptions.

I know this map and I think it expresses ANE ancestry very well (also common in Native Americans and various Siberian groups. ) The further west of Siberia the more likely you are to find light eyes and hair, for me this would imply a selection in the mix between EHG + ANE if you want to guess, but as I said before: there are different variants in different regions.

I started with:

The complication is that whole Europe is a mix and features can also have multiple sources.

But there is also some plain common sense at stake, because when EEF is the source for some blondism someone has to explain me how on earth this would be possibly with skin type I and II (the people with red and blond hair) in an original Med farmers population, with this kind of UV rates in summer:



foto upload gratis

That means in no time raw meat for skin type I (no tan) as type II (miserable tan)!

So please explain how this is possibly, so I certainly don't rule anything out, but it has to make sense....

 

[ThirdTerm]

Many Siberian peoples have A LOT of ANE ancestry and do not have light eyes or light hair. Udmurt is one of the exceptions.

I guess it is associated with haplogroup U. Afontova Gora 3, the earliest known Siberian individual associated with blonde hair, belonged to its parental mitochondrial haplogroup R. Two Yana RHS individuals with significant ANE ancestry from the same Siberian region belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup U, predominant among ancient West Eurasians. The Tarim people at Xiaohe also carried mtDNA haplogroups U5 and U7. The proportion of the ‘Ket-Uralic’ admixture component correlated strongly with the worldwide frequency of mitochondrial haplogroup U4 (Flegontof et al. 2016).

 

[Niceguy12]

I started with:


But there is also some plain common sense at stake, because when EEF is the source for some blondism someone has to explain me how on earth this would be possibly with skin type I and II (the people with red and blond hair) in an original Med farmers population, with this kind of UV rates in summer:



foto upload gratis

That means in no time raw meat for skin type I (no tan) as type II (miserable tan)!

So please explain how this is possibly, so I certainly don't rule anything out, but it has to make sense....

I don't need to explain something I didn't say. I didn't say that light hair arrived in Europe with EEF (you who seem to have the belief that modern variants must have a direct relationship with ancient genetic drift.)


I said that modern variants may have emerged more recently and when the ethnic groups that form the modern Europeans were already mingling. Selection for depigmentation took place in northern Europe for obvious reasons, that's one thing, trying to associate modern variants with ancient populations (which often had other variants ) is another thing.


You want to believe that a certain hair color needs to have a direct relationship with one of the ancestral populations, you can believe that, no one will stop you, but not everyone thinks this is the most logical reason when it is known that selection for lighter pigmentation it's recent.

 

[Niceguy12]

I guess it is associated with haplogroup U. Afontova Gora 3, the earliest known Siberian individual associated with blonde hair, belonged to its parental mitochondrial haplogroup R. Two Yana RHS individuals with significant ANE ancestry from the same Siberian region belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup U, predominant among ancient West Eurasians. The Tarim people at Xiaohe also carried mtDNA haplogroups U5 and U7.

Hunter-gatherers and farmers have been in Europe for at least seven thousand to five thousand years. In that time it is possible that variants have emerged without needing ANE for this. Nothing prevents farmers living in northern Europe from developing other pigmentation variants as well since the environment has changed. You seem to want ANE, EHG and EFF to have kept their 'original' appearances for as long as they were in Europe. This is a illogical belief.


Haplogroup I1 did not arise on the steppe, but became very common among northern Europeans. They may have developed variants for lighter pigmentation without it necessarily coming from the steppe or elsewhere. Please don't misunderstand: I'm not saying that there isn't strong steppe ancestry in northern Europe, I'm saying that many of them could have already been blond when more steppe ancestry (and consequently ANE) got there.

That's why I cited EHG as a more plausible association, not ANE. But they are just associations, different variants may have appeared in different places in Europe and at different times.

 

[Angela]

For WHG people use samples like Loschbour from Luxembourg or Villabruna from Northern Italy. La Brana from Spain is used less frequently from what I can see.

I think Mathiesen et al 2018 would suggest that "WHGs were once widely distributed from the Atlantic coast in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkans in the Southeast, for more than six thousand years."

 

[Niceguy12]

For WHG people use samples like Loschbour from Luxembourg or Villabruna from Northern Italy. La Brana from Spain is used less frequently from what I can see.

I think Mathiesen et al 2018 would suggest that "WHGs were once widely distributed from the Atlantic coast in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkans in the Southeast, for more than six thousand years."

I can't say much about southern Italy. I only know a few articles and Vahaduo/dodecad calculators. In them the 'Atlantic Mediterranean' component (which I believe is EEF + WHG ) is considerably higher in iberia, Sardegna and northern Italy than in the South, but I don't know if this apparent difference can be explained in ways I'm not aware of. It is also considerably higher among the Basques than other Iberians.

 

[Angela]

The major effect alleles for depigmentation are what they always were. The difference is the number of people who carry them. The percentages are higher today than they were even in the Classical Era. The same is true for LP alleles.

For SLC45A2 there is a collection of data from Lucotte et al.

Derived SLC24A5 is at almost 100% throughout Europe now and even people in Andalucia and Sicily and Crete manage not to burn to a crisp.

There are, of course, lots of smaller effect genes which change skin tone. Some also endow the bearers with the ability to tan, a very useful thing when most people were farmers.

When law enforcement tries to get a phenotype from a sample many snps are used. The more that are used, the greater the predictive ability.

 

[matadworf]

My belief was that those Imperial Roman samples are not migrants from the Southern Italy but this Roman cluster was something that was formed in Central Italy itself.

And regarding migration of Anatolians and others, it happened independently of Greek poleis (with some exceptions). About Greece it depends from region to region, Attica could've been more Eastern influenced than Crete. Epirus was largely empty. Was Peloponnese less inhabitable than Crete? Why would so many Anatolians go to Crete and very few to Peloponnese?

I just don’t see any genetic evidence of it in modern Peloponnesians. There may have been some dispersion to the Eastern half of the Peloponnese during the latter Byzantine period as the West was under Frank or Venetian control. Maybe you’re right to the more populous coastal regions but certainly not the interior where sheepherders roamed������

 

[ihype02]

I just don’t see any genetic evidence of it in modern Peloponnesians. There may have been some dispersion to the Eastern half of the Peloponnese during the latter Byzantine period as the West was under Frank or Venetian control. Maybe you’re right to the more populous coastal regions but certainly not the interior where sheepherders roamed������

Weren't Deep Maniotes isolated shepherds too? They cluster with Cretans even after centuries of contact (during Ottoman Period) with Taygetos Maniotes who were largely Slavic speakers in Late Dark Ages. Chances are that pre-Ottoman era Deep Maniotes were much like Western shifted Rhodians rather than Cretans. The trajectory of Peloponnesians compared to Slavs in line with Crete and Cyprus and not with Mycenaeans.

 

[Philjames100]

red hair seems to correlate with R1b

 

[Kuivamaa]

He didn't exclude that route in his paper about the Mycenaeans, but the answer may be in all these new samples the Reich Lab has been analyzing.

Ever since Lazaridis paper came out, I keep thinking of the Phrygians. Their language is so close to Greek that it hints towards a dialect continuum from armenia/Iran through Phrygia all the way to Greece. (Phrygia is in the dead center of Anatolia). This is compatible with a gradual migration of a Greco-Phrygian group through Anatolia, and ultimately in Greece. The distance between Armenia and Greece is far shorter through Anatolia than it is if you circumventing the Black Sea. The second option would mean that Greeks and Phrygians must have split when they reached the Aegean (with Phrygians moving on to deeply infiltrate Anatolia) without leaving any other linguistic relatives on their way there (Balkans etc right where the Thracians stood). And we do know that Kurgan hypothesis is not the greatest of fits when it comes to Greece already. Perhaps Reich Lab has a smoking gun.

 

[Angela]

red hair seems to correlate with R1b

Anecdotally it certainly works in my family's case. Half my father's family is red haired and they carry U-152 and come from the southern half of that dark sliver of darkest red in northern Italy which runs north/south.

 

[matadworf]

Weren't Deep Maniotes isolated shepherds too? They cluster with Cretans even after centuries of contact (during Ottoman Period) with Taygetos Maniotes who were largely Slavic speakers in Late Dark Ages. Chances are that pre-Ottoman era Deep Maniotes were much like Western shifted Rhodians rather than Cretans. The trajectory of Peloponnesians compared to Slavs in line with Crete and Cyprus and not with Mycenaeans.

Mani has some connection to Crete genetically. There’s evidence that Cretan pirates may have had contact with Maniotes during the Ottoman period. Deep Mani and Tsakonia seem to to cluster with one another and pretty close to Crete. Much of it may have to do with isolation and lack of Slavic admixture. The rest of the Peloponnese is pretty uniform; slightly South of Thessaly, Western Macedonia, South Albania with some overlap.

 

[ihype02]

Mani has some connection to Crete genetically. There’s evidence that Cretan pirates may have had contact with Maniotes during the Ottoman period. Deep Mani and Tsakonia seem to to cluster with one another and pretty close to Crete. Much of it may have to do with isolation and lack of Slavic admixture. The rest of the Peloponnese is pretty uniform; slightly South of Thessaly, Western Macedonia, South Albania with some overlap.

Yes but Maniotes from Taygetus plot even more northern than most Peloponnesians. If Cretan pirates left any remarkable admixture it would've shown on them. The Emperor Constantine called Deep Maniotes as a population descended from older Romioi, that's hardly a coincidence.
Pre Slavic Peloponnesians seem to be like Aegean Islanders with a Western pull.
Also the Slavic admixture in mainstream Peloponnesians could score from 25% to 50%, so it diluted the Anatolian admixture quite a lot.

 

[matadworf]

Yes but Maniotes from Taygetus plot even more northern than most Peloponnesian. If Creatan pirates left any remarkable admixture it would've shown on them. The Emperor Constantine called Deep Maniotes as a population descended from older Romioi, that's hardly a coincidence.
Pre Slavic Peloponnesians seem to be like Aegean Islanders with a Western pull.
Also the Slavic admixture in mainstream Peloponnesians could score from 25% to 50%, so it diluted the Anatolian admixture quite a lot.

Yes you’re right about West Taygetus. My first cousin’s mother was from a village on the Western side and they’re super Slavic looking. Arachova is a good example. Pre Slavic Peloponnesians were most likely similar (genetically) to present day Cretans (not Dodecanese). Modern Peloponnesians like myself are most likely descended from folks who migrated to the peninsula during the Ottoman era (from Epirus, Thessaly,etc). Maybe that’s why some of us shift away.

 

[Northener]

I don't need to explain something I didn't say. I didn't say that light hair arrived in Europe with EEF (you who seem to have the belief that modern variants must have a direct relationship with ancient genetic drift.)


I said that modern variants may have emerged more recently and when the ethnic groups that form the modern Europeans were already mingling. Selection for depigmentation took place in northern Europe for obvious reasons, that's one thing, trying to associate modern variants with ancient populations (which often had other variants ) is another thing.


You want to believe that a certain hair color needs to have a direct relationship with one of the ancestral populations, you can believe that, no one will stop you, but not everyone thinks this is the most logical reason when it is known that selection for lighter pigmentation it's recent.

It was stated in Marnetto et al 2021 nice guy that EEF correlates with blond hair in Estonians. May be this is specific for the Estonian population?
So it's not a believe but research.

 

[Ricardo]

Waiting, waiting, but I wrote a lot about the Indo-European "Southern Arc" before:

The ancient Iranian population who bred and born Iranian J1-L620 on the land. L620>FGC6064 and L620>PF4816>ZS6599 are in good part basal Indo-European or Iranian with Bronze Age and Iron Age nodes, branches and diverse samples. The Iranian and Indo-European frontier separating Semitic and Afro-Asiatic spaces perpassing and close to the Zagros Mountain range in the vicinity of the modern Iraq/Iran border. Iran is completely undersampled in terms of high-coverage Y-DNA and ancient DNA (we would need a study about the capillarity of at least 5000 samples to have a critical mass and a notion of the Y-DNA structures found there in different regions), the only information we have is related to the perception of the bushy phylogenetic ancient nodes in the tree of some haplogroups like J1 and they reveal a large Mesolithic/Neolithic/Bronze Age population that persisted and survived in the core area of that genetic cauldron

https://zenodo.org/record/5528265

 

[ihype02]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]From Strabo:[FONT=&quot]

The first place in Cilicia, then, to which one comes, is a stronghold, Coracesium, situated on an abrupt rock, which was used by Diodotus, called Tryphon, as a base of operations at the time when he caused Syria to revolt from the kings and was fighting it out with them, being successful at one time and failing at another. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Now Tryphon was hemmed up in a certain place by Antiochus, son of Demetrius, and forced to kill himself; and it was Tryphon, together with the worthlessness of the kings who by succession were then reigning over Syria and at the same time over Cilicia, who caused the Cilicians to organise their gangs of pirates; for on account of his revolutionary attempts others made [/FONT]

[COLOR=#FF3300 !important] p329 [/COLOR]​

[FONT=&quot]like attempts at the same time, and thus the dissensions of brethren with one another put the country at the mercy of any who might attack it. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The exportation of slaves induced them most of all to engage in their evil business, since it proved most profitable; for not only were they easily captured, but the market, which was large and rich in property, was not extremely far away, I mean Delos, which could both admit and send away ten thousand slaves on the same day; whence arose the proverb, "Merchant, sail in, unload your ship, everything has been sold." [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The cause of this was the fact that the Romans, having become rich after the destruction of Carthage and Corinth, used many slaves; and the pirates, seeing the easy profit therein, bloomed forth in great numbers, [/FONT]669[FONT=&quot]themselves not only going in quest of booty but also trafficking in slaves. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The kings both of Cyprus and of Egypt co‑operated with them in this, being enemies to the Syrians.

[/FONT]https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/14E*.html#5.2.3
---
One of the pirates' main sources of income was slavery. Rome's economy had become dependent on slaves as Roman landowners held large plantations worked by them. Sicily was particularly notorious for its large Roman estates worked by slaves from all over the Mediterranean. When the Republic was not at war, it needed an alternative supply and so it turned to the pirates, who were Rome's most consistent supplier. That had the additional effect of powerful interest groups in Rome (mainly the business class) who lobbied for inactivity.^[5]
The island of Delos became the centre of the Mediterranean slave market; other markets included those of Rhodes and Alexandria. In its heyday, 10,000 slaves passed through Delos' markets in a single day.^[5] With the plantations came a harsher system of slavery and greater demand. Western Asia was the main supply and was reduced by piracy and Roman tax farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilician_pirates

 

[real expert]

It was stated in Marnetto et al 2021 nice guy that EEF correlates with blond hair in Estonians. May be this is specific for the Estonian population?
So it's not a believe but research.

Most likely.

 

[real expert]

Mani has some connection to Crete genetically. There’s evidence that Cretan pirates may have had contact with Maniotes during the Ottoman period. Deep Mani and Tsakonia seem to to cluster with one another and pretty close to Crete. Much of it may have to do with isolation and lack of Slavic admixture. The rest of the Peloponnese is pretty uniform; slightly South of Thessaly, Western Macedonia, South Albania with some overlap.

Correct me if my impression is wrong. To me it appears that Cretans and Cypriots are darker than Mainland Greeks.