David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Vallicanus]

The earliest evidence for wheeled vehicles is in Europe, the earliest of all in the area of the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture:

- Klimsha (2017), Wheeled vehicles

“The present evidence for early wheeled transport does not support the traditional belief in the oriental invention of wheel and wagon. Full-size wheels and axles from central and eastern Europe clearly pre-date the earliest wheels from the Near East, and the indirect evidence (models, depictions) does not allow for a temporal gradient indicating diffusion ex oriente. Two alternative hypotheses remain. Innovation could have happened roughly simultaneously, but independently, in several regions (the polycentric model). … Alternatively, there was only one innovation centre. Following Maran (2004b), the late Tripolye culture (around 3700-3500 BC) in the steppe area north-west of the Pontic Sea is the most likely candidate for inventing wheeled transport”

- Schier 2015, Oxford Handbook of Neolithic Europe, p.113

Fake news.

 

[Philjames100]

Fake news.

oh wow so you don't actually care about evidence. You just believe stuff and that's what you believe and evidence is irrelevant.

 

[Vallicanus]

oh wow so you don't actually care about evidence. You just believe stuff and that's what you believe and evidence is irrelevant.

What evidence?
Your bit of "evidence" suggests various geographical possibilities for the origin of the wheel.

In any case the initial idea came from the Mesopotamian potter's wheel.

The ancient Tripolye people you mentioned were more like modern South Europeans rather than North Europeans.

 

[Silesian]

What evidence?
Your bit of "evidence" suggests various geographical possibilities for the origin of the wheel.
In any case the initial idea came from the Mesopotamian potter's wheel.
The ancient Tripolye people you mentioned were more like modern South Europeans rather than North Europeans.

Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.

 

[Mmiikkii]

Assyrians have a lot of R1b lineages, mostly Z2103, like Iranians/South Caucasians/Iraqis.

Could we consider Assyrians, Semitified Aryans??? Since they're R1b speaking a Semitic language.
They also could have been reinforced by BA collapse(Troy) survivors into their Renaissance in the X century BC.

 

[Angela]

Could we consider Assyrians, Semitified Aryans??? Since they're R1b speaking a Semitic language.
They also could have been reinforced by BA collapse(Troy) survivors into their Renaissance in the X century BC.

Are you sure you're on the right site? Aryans? That is racist bilge talk. Plus, haven't you heard that the Nazis got it all wrong using that word? It has nothing to do with Europe in the first place.

 

[Angela]

Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.

So that's the way the "logic" is going to go now? If the urheimat of the Indo-European languages is in a corner of Anatolia, and they carried a form of R1b, and/or later on a branch of R1b came back down through the Caucasus, then all of a sudden, the usual suspects will have a conversion and admit that all of the achievements of the Near East did actually happen there???

This is unbelievable.

I have news for all of you: the alleles for intelligence and creativity DON'T get passed down by the y chromosome. THEY'RE IN YOUR AUTOSOMES. Those R1b Assyrians are and were NEAR EASTERNERS, not ARYANS.

 

[Angela]

How you can say the barbarians took down Rome, what about all the people that lived in Imperial Rome???
The years of intellectual and physical indolence, as well as "progress" of the 2nd century and what THEIR CITIZENS (and people and slaves) did in the next centuries with the social cohesion of Rome...(III century crisis...)

By the way, I reccomend you this video.
https://youtu.be/okuRN1Wijlw
It says that the end of the Empire was mostly a formality, and the state of the city didn't change that much(taking into account it already was a declining Empire) until the destruction by the Byzantines during the Gothic Wars.

I recommend that you pick up and read some history books and not rely on idiot you tube videos.

The state of the city was not that different??? Have you ever heard of archaeology or history???

Oh, it slipped my mind: that idiot Nordicist is going to blame it on the Byzantines. Are the Byzantines to blame for similar scenes from France and Spain and England? I have news for you: the Byzantines never got there.

I will also just briefly reply that after the fall of Rome ALL OVER THE EMPIRE the roads fell into disrepair, many of them lost to overgrowth, trade almost came to a standstill and took hundreds of years to recover, cities disappeared or just became villages that were little more than hovels, the ability to heat homes was lost, there were no more baths and people just lived in their own bodily dirt, Europe became illiterate, there were no more doctors and on and on. Why didn't these wonderful invading tribes keep everything going?

READ THE FOLLOWING BOOK:
The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization-Bryan Ward Perkins.

Listen to the archaeologists if you want to know what happened to a civilization, not ideologues.

 

[Silesian]

I don't know about intelligence genes, however to build a solid wheel to go 1000+km or a spoked wheel, would take a good craftsman.
As for the culture of farming, and EF Near Eastern genes,and high density living, king Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines a different style. Even though most kurgans are R1b-Z2108 there are kurgans with females. And perhaps this movie was made with Alan-Sarmatian Z-2108 females in mind
http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/artl/sarmatian.shtml

The most fascinating feature of Sarmatian culture is their women warriors. Herodotus reported that the Sarmatians were said to be the offsprings of Scythians who had mated with Amazons and that their female descendants "have continued from that day to the present to observe their ancient [Amazon] customs, frequently hunting on horseback with their husbands; in war taking the field; and wearing the very same dress as the men" Moreover, said Herodotus, "No girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle."

...Both Herodotus and Hippocrates accounts inform us the Sarmatians took interest in turning their women into strong-armed huntresses and fighters. Archaeological materials seem to confirm Sarmatian women's active role in military operation and social life. Burial of armed Sarmatian women comprise large percent of the military burial in the group occupy the central position and appear the be the richest.

 

[Vallicanus]

Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.

There's room for you too at Apricity.

 

[Silesian]

There's room for you too at Apricity.

I have come across people who say that one tends to project and accuse their own bad traits on/against others, still trying to figure out if it's true.
Anyway, quite interesting for whatever reason so many Assyrian Near East ydna lines kind of were replaced by R1b-Z2103 steppe shared by Armenians and Lurs, it's similar to what happened in Khvanysk.

 

[Angela]

The earliest evidence for wheeled vehicles is in Europe, the earliest of all in the area of the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture:

- Klimsha (2017), Wheeled vehicles

“The present evidence for early wheeled transport does not support the traditional belief in the oriental invention of wheel and wagon. Full-size wheels and axles from central and eastern Europe clearly pre-date the earliest wheels from the Near East, and the indirect evidence (models, depictions) does not allow for a temporal gradient indicating diffusion ex oriente. Two alternative hypotheses remain. Innovation could have happened roughly simultaneously, but independently, in several regions (the polycentric model). … Alternatively, there was only one innovation centre. Following Maran (2004b), the late Tripolye culture (around 3700-3500 BC) in the steppe area north-west of the Pontic Sea is the most likely candidate for inventing wheeled transport”

- Schier 2015, Oxford Handbook of Neolithic Europe, p.113

First of all, I have a news flash for you: Cucuteni-Trypillia culture was a European Neolithic farmer society, whose people were genetically about 75% Anatolia Neolithic and 25% WHG. Nothing steppe about them.

Second of all, your link to "Klimsha" doesn't work. Who is he or she?

Third of all, this 400-page book by a respected Russian archaeologist puts the discovery in the Near East.
https://www.academia.edu/5159110/Communications_and_the_Earliest_Wheeled_Transport_of_Eurasia

 

[Silesian]

Interesting to compare different styles. Perhaps Cyrus was related to the steppe Sarmatians?(Iranian peoples)

The Edict of Restoration, a proclamation attested by a cylinder seal in which Cyrus authorized and encouraged the return of the Israelites to the Land of Israel following his conquest of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, is described in the Bible and likewise left a lasting legacy on the Jewish religion due to his role in ending the Babylonian captivity and facilitating the Jewish return to Zion. According to Isaiah 45:1 of the Hebrew Bible,^[15] God anointed Cyrus for this task, even referring to him as a messiah (lit. 'anointed one'); Cyrus is the only non-Jewish figure in the Bible to be revered in this capacity.^[16]

Titus(Titus Caesar Vespasianus-Flavian dynasty) on the other hand ruled with a iron fist. The Arch of Titus commemorating the destruction of a Near Eastern cuture.

 

[eupator]

Basques and Bashkirs also carry large numbers of R1b and they don't speak IE languages.

Etruscan data also show a similar situation (R1b but no IE). Ancient Greeks spoke IE but no R1b so far, maybe Southern Arc will provide some?

The relation between the spread of IE and R1b is not yet clear cut.

 

[Ricardo]

IE was the language of an ancient and complex society, well organized for the conditions of that time, they had specific words for several aspects of life and of course they were an extremely warlike society and had an expansionist ethos still going on in several frontiers, of course IE were incorporating and absorbing new people and new Y-DNA lineages all the time, only the Southern-Eastern ARC had the attributes and deep social structures for the creation and development of that diverse, original founding society and Y-DNA J haplogroup had the time and space to produce ancient Y-DNA basal nodes of the PIE. As I wrote in another place: Open steppes are characterized by a succession of different populations and events. The original population as part of the CHG/Iranian mating complex that arrived in the Eneolithic steppe had a good Southern presence of basal types of J1, the Ancient Iranians had several J1 branches as we can observe from the Steppe to BMAC. The big diversity and proportions of J1 in Eastern Anatolia, Eastern Caucasus, NW Iran and in the Southern Caspian Sea, all regions where ancient and basal J1 branches are still alive and present since the Mesolithic. Gilan is a good example with a very rich and traditional Indo-European archaeology in Marlik and a good J1 diversity in the modern local population, so we can find J1 branches in every ancient PIE or IE candidate populations. What the archaeological data is showing is that R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 were Indo-Europeanized later, just like E-V13 and I1, they were not found in the first Eneolithic IE populations and probably they were not members among the first IE groups in the Volga-N.Caucasus, neither in the Southern Caucasus and nor in Iran. We still don't know all Y-DNA lineages from the CHG/Iran populations, we know they had J1 and surprises can happen because some types of R1b or R1a could be associated with that original population, we don't know because we don't have public "unadmixed" CHG/Iranian samples, so let's wait.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

Sorry to burst your bubble. Had you had a look at Grugni et al 2012 you would see that Assyrians are comprised of steppe wagon R1b-- anywhere from 23%-55%.

a) R1b comes from Upper Paleolithic Siberians (Ancestral North Eurasians or just ANE), R1b were present in some Tarim Basin early mummies (90% ANE ancestry). Native Americans and native Siberians are the present-day people more close to the ANE.
b) It's a paper of 2012 and talks about PRESENT-DAY Y haplogroups, not ancient ones. But even if R1b was present in ancient Assyrians, it could be due from neolithic Iranians (they had ANE admixture).

 

[Anfänger]

Are you sure you're on the right site? Aryans? That is racist bilge talk. Plus, haven't you heard that the Nazis got it all wrong using that word? It has nothing to do with Europe in the first place.

Absolutey right, Angela, I am always bewildered when people refer to the PIE people as "Aryans". The term is only used in scientific debate when referring to the Indo-Iranians, Indo-Aryans and/or Iranics. There is zero evidence that it was ever used by other peoples as an ethnonym.

My understanding regarding R1b-Z2103 in the Near East is that it arrived in two waves. First in the 3rd millennium BC with fleeing tribes from the steppe looking for refuge in the Southern Caucasus because Abashevo-culture was pushing into the steppe and largely replaced Yamnaya/Catacomb. This first wave is probably related to Assyrian and Armenian R1b-Z2103. It seems Reich also thinks the same. At least this is my understanding of this quote from the Southern Arc paper:

A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself.

The second wave of R1b-Z2103 into the Near East probably arrived with the Iranics from Central Asia in the Iron Age. Lurs and Talysh, both Iranics, have about 25-40% of R1b-Z2103.

---

It it still possible that there is R1b-M269 in an unadmixed (before 6000BC) CHG/Iran populations but I think the chances of finding it are rather small. An unadmixed CHG/Iran population that also went into the Eneolithic Steppe gene pool was likely J1 and J2, since there is already J1 far north in Khavlynsk. There has to be more J1 and J2 in places further south, closer to the Caucasus, Lower Don and Lower Volga might be the places to search for this southern signal. R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 could be assimilated haplogroups that survived over the long run. Anyway, let's wait for the paper.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

Nah there was civilisation in Europe thousands of years before then.

With a state (centralized or city-state), with cities, laws, writing? Where?

 

[eupator]

There is zero evidence that it was ever used by other peoples as an ethnonym.

The term Aryan is used by Herodotus to refer to the Medes as an ethnonym before they adopted the latter as a replacement.

He writes:

Μῆδοι δὲ τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην ἐσταλμένοι ἐστρατεύοντο· Μηδικὴ γὰρ αὕτη ἡ σκευή ἐστι καὶ οὐ Περσική. οἱ δὲ Μῆδοι ἄρχοντα μὲν παρείχοντο Τιγράνην ἄνδρα Ἀχαιμενίδην, ἐκαλέοντο δὲ πάλαι πρὸς πάντων Ἄριοι, ἀπικομένης δὲ Μηδείης τῆς Κολχίδος ἐξ Ἀθηνέων ἐς τοὺς Ἀρίους τούτους μετέβαλον καὶ οὗτοι τὸ οὔνομα. αὐτοὶ περὶ σφέων ὧδε λέγουσι Μῆδοι.

Translation (mine):

The Medes took part in this (military) excursion carrying the same gear, this gear being Medean (in origin) and not Persian. Medes had as a leader one Tigranis, from the Achaemenids, the old times the world referring to them as Aryans, but when Medea, of Colchian origin, arrived from Athens into the lands of the Aryans, they changed their name. This is what they, the Medes, tell us about themselves.

 

[real expert]

You continue to display knowledge based on platitudes and commonplaces.

You're entitled to your opinion.