David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[etrusco]

I completely agree that the Greeks and Romans are the founders of Western civilization. The point is that both the Greeks and Romans inherited their languages ​​(for some people language defines culture) from Indo-European-speaking invaders. For Nordicists; this means that the PIE invaders are consequently the founders of Greek and Roman cultures as well.


I find Nordicism pathetic because the invaders mixed with the local population. No culture developed without this mixture. The Indo-European speakers themselves were also constituted by the mixture of EHG and CHG. There is no 'pure population', there is the natural movement of mixing between human populations.


There seems to be a silly intrigue between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. Northerners feel like the founders of it all as the Indo-European invaders dominated the farmers and modified their languages ​​and cultures, while Southern Europeans claim that the south was indeed civilized. As a Brazilian who looks at all this from the outside: it seems like a big waste of time. Indo-Europeans and farmers mingled everywhere in Europe, it no longer makes sense to think of any modern European civilization as essentially divided. Genetic and cultural mixing happened everywhere. That is all.


Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.

this is a debate that was understandable in 2018/2019 when southern european genetics was seen as only EEF based. Reality is another. We now know that ANE/ANS is made of a mix between central mediterranean dna( proto aurignacian) proto gravettian ( from south of the caucasus and expanding into the eastern european plain mixing with the aurignacian) and east asian.
We now know that WHG is a southern european genetic marker and CHG is not northern european either.
The idea that " northern european are more IE than southern european " is bullshit given the fact that Sredni Stog was a mix between ukraine neolithic cluster and CHG like cluster with PIE coming from the former which was around 70% WHG and 30% ANE. There is no west eurasian genetic marker that is northern european in origin. WHG, and EEF are all southern and ANE as I said is southern european, levant + east asian

 

[Angela]

I just found this page from Anthrogenica’s co-founder DMXX Vaedya blog. Apparently, they thought highly of Dilawer and used him to prove their point. But when he corrected or disagreed with them they show their true colors and ban him. How ironic and pathetic !
http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/search?q=Sintashta

What the heck is "European". There is no such ancestral component.

 

[Vallicanus]

I completely agree that the Greeks and Romans are the founders of Western civilization. The point is that both the Greeks and Romans inherited their languages ​​(for some people language defines culture) from Indo-European-speaking invaders. For Nordicists; this means that the PIE invaders are consequently the founders of Greek and Roman cultures as well.


I find Nordicism pathetic because the invaders mixed with the local population. No culture developed without this mixture. The Indo-European speakers themselves were also constituted by the mixture of EHG and CHG. There is no 'pure population', there is the natural movement of mixing between human populations.


There seems to be a silly intrigue between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. Northerners feel like the founders of it all as the Indo-European invaders dominated the farmers and modified their languages ​​and cultures, while Southern Europeans claim that the south was indeed civilized. As a Brazilian who looks at all this from the outside: it seems like a big waste of time. Indo-Europeans and farmers mingled everywhere in Europe, it no longer makes sense to think of any modern European civilization as essentially divided. Genetic and cultural mixing happened everywhere. That is all.


Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.

Well how do these Nordicists feel about the original Indo-European-speakers being more like modern Iranians than modern Scandos?

 

[Niceguy12]

Well how do these Nordicists feel about the original Indo-European-speakers being more like modern Iranians than modern Scandos?

I have no idea what the Yamnaya people looked like. I've seen some reconstructions, but nothing seems definitive.

 

[matadworf]

I have no idea what the Yamnaya people looked like. I've seen some reconstructions, but nothing seems definitive.

Probably like modern day Balkanites (who knows) but seriously doubt they were blond/blue eyed. My thing is why the fixation with IndoEuros? What if they never arrived from the steppe and Europe was made up of Anatolian Farmers with slight WHG admixture would things have been radically different? We certainly wouldn't be having these ridiculous conversations about the superiority of IE over Farmers. I'm super proud of my high ANF ancestry because it's about adaptation not forcible conquest.

 

[Niceguy12]

Probably like modern day Balkanites (who knows) but seriously doubt they were blond/blue eyed. My thing is why the fixation with IndoEuros? What if they never arrived from the steppe and Europe was made up of Anatolian Farmers with slight WHG admixture would things have been radically different? We certainly wouldn't be having these ridiculous conversations about the superiority of IE over Farmers. I'm super proud of my high ANF ancestry because it's about adaptation not forcible conquest.

I think the fixation exists because some ethnic groups (richer in steppe ancestry) want to feel like the dominating masters of Europe. If all the great European civilizations stopped speaking native languages ​​and started to speak Indo-European languages; for them this means that the Indo-Europeans are the 'masters' behind all the great European civilizations. It was a very common thesis among the Nazis. For them the pre-Indo-European farmers are the 'plebs' and the elites the 'masters' who carried new languages ​​and new cultures. It seems to be a kind of colonial mentality within Europe. Here in Brazil the native and African populations were seen as the slaves/dominated, while the Portuguese were the dominators.

 

[Ghani]

What the heck is "European". There is no such ancestral component.

No idea. Is that a calculator component or is DMX grouping a few components under that label? But yeah in the early days before the large number of ancients were published people were creating calculators with mixed ancient-modern components which is not a good idea. Hopefully they’re not doing it now since we gave so many ancient samples

 

[Ailchu]

Unfortunately, this type of Nordic racism also happens in Brazil. Brazilians of German or Ukrainian descent feel 'whiter' than Brazilians of Portuguese and Italian descent. Of course, here in Brazil all this is taken much less seriously, but it happens.

well, you could also say that the brazilians of portuguese and italian descent feel 'whiter' than those of non-european or partially non-european descent and it would be exactly the same.
it's not really nordic racism. it's just that brazilian society values lighter features more and thus people who own those ligther features.

 

[torzio]

well, you could also say that the brazilians of portuguese and italian descent feel 'whiter' than those of non-european or partially non-european descent and it would be exactly the same.
it's not really nordic racism. it's just that brazilian society values lighter features more and thus people who own those ligther features.

The Italians went to Brazil went in great numbers ( over half a million ) living together with the Germans and Portuguese in Southern Brazil...............they realised after a decade or so, that it was not as good as Europe.......with many moving to USA/Canada or even back to Italy ( especially after 1970 )

There is no Nordic racism ...........people who mention this have ZERO ideas and like to "stir the pot with BS"

my relatives did not go to Brazil/Argentina or Uruguay.........2 families went to south west France from 1910 ....................and my relatives on my grandmother side came to Australia after WW1

 

[enter_tain]

Are we ever going to get this freaking paper? Kept waiting until July 13 for that talk, and still nothing. Jfc, it's been talked about for years. What are these people hiding?

 

[Silesian]

What the heck is "European". There is no such ancestral component.

A-B-AB-O rh negative blood types are pretty unique to European people like Basque and Steppe. Modern day blood transfusions and women who are rh negative and married rh negative did not have to worry about losing their offspring.

 

[Ricardo]

All European immigrants in Brazil had an extraordinary demographic explosion and they had big families in Brazil while in Europe they were starving or being killed in mass in the First and Second World Wars, most have average lifes, few are very poor and some are very rich, if you are rich in Brazil you are far richer than in Europe, of course all foreign immigrants were Brazilianized in the language and culture, specially during the "Campanha de Nacionalização" in the Second World War. European immigrants are a very important part of Brazil just like the descendants of the Brazilian Portuguese Colonial ruling class, the Amerindian and African big demographic stocks.

The Italians went to Brazil went in great numbers ( over half a million ) living together with the Germans and Portuguese in Southern Brazil...............they realised after a decade or so, that it was not as good as Europe.......with many moving to USA/Canada or even back to Italy ( especially after 1970 )
There is no Nordic racism ...........people who mention this have ZERO ideas and like to "stir the pot with BS"
my relatives did not go to Brazil/Argentina or Uruguay.........2 families went to south west France from 1910 ....................and my relatives on my grandmother side came to Australia after WW1

 

[Aaron1981]

Your assertion about Davidski sounds trustworthy. With that being said, I personally haven‘t come across these specific topics, old posts, and outrageous claims of him, at all. My impression of Davidski is that at times he comes off as rude but he's very knowledgeable in genetics for better or worse. For instance, concerning his conclusions about the Bell Beakers and their relation to the Corded Ware people, he was right. Nonetheless, Davidski must have been high to predict and confidently suggest that the Mycenaeans would turn out to be blonde, blue-eyed very CWC-like people. He failed terribly in that regard. And that's why he may have begun to tone down the rhetoric. The thing is that researchers do take him seriously and obviously read his blog too. In one genetic study, the scholars referred to Davidski, for instance. Thus I think he‘s kinda forced to display discipline and basically summarize what the studies say and comment on them without being carried away by his personal agenda. His blog obviously changed into becoming more moderate and tame. At least compared to what you‘ve witnessed. In my opinion, we should read any conclusions, suggestions, or interpretations of DNA findings regardless of the political affiliation of the involved researchers, with caution.

Some Greeks were blonde and red haired, but they were a minority. I recall a Youtube from a few years back where it demonstrated that an unreleased genome of a R-L23 "Classical" age Greek was blonde and lactose intolerant. Presumably blue eyes also popped up once in a while due to some WHG roots.

 

[Ailchu]

There is no Nordic racism ...........people who mention this have ZERO ideas and like to "stir the pot with BS"

if you mean that there is no racism of more northern european people against more southern european people then no, it certainly exists. if you mean that there is no "nordic racism" because it doesn't really differ from other sorts of racism in a way that would justify calling it "nordic" then i agree with you. or when spanish people are racist against north africans, is that also nordic racism?
this focus on "nordic" diverts from the real problem.
of course if it's about the theories of nordic people bringing civilization to southern europe and more northern people claiming the achievements of those people, in other words cultural theft then it's a different thing. but those two things are not automatically the same.

 

[Angela]

I have no idea what the Yamnaya people looked like. I've seen some reconstructions, but nothing seems definitive.

We do have their pigmentation snps, and they were darker than modern Europeans, so there is that.

There was even a very early Corded Ware person found in Poland who an article said surprised the Polish scientists, because he was much "darker" than modern Poles. I haven't heard anything since, but it all makes sense.

That latest large paper on pigmentation maintains that the steppe people picked up more derived alleles for "paleness" from the farmers with whom they admixed.

Over the millennia evolution has selected for those alleles where they are helpful.

 

[Angela]

No idea. Is that a calculator component or is DMX grouping a few components under that label? But yeah in the early days before the large number of ancients were published people were creating calculators with mixed ancient-modern components which is not a good idea. Hopefully they’re not doing it now since we gave so many ancient samples

Yes, I know, so I was wondering why a calculator like that was being praised.

 

[Angela]

this is a debate that was understandable in 2018/2019 when southern european genetics was seen as only EEF based. Reality is another. We now know that ANE/ANS is made of a mix between central mediterranean dna( proto aurignacian) proto gravettian ( from south of the caucasus and expanding into the eastern european plain mixing with the aurignacian) and east asian.
We now know that WHG is a southern european genetic marker and CHG is not northern european either.
The idea that " northern european are more IE than southern european " is bullshit given the fact that Sredni Stog was a mix between ukraine neolithic cluster and CHG like cluster with PIE coming from the former which was around 70% WHG and 30% ANE. There is no west eurasian genetic marker that is northern european in origin. WHG, and EEF are all southern and ANE as I said is southern european, levant + east asian


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I also don't know what purpose it serves to go back to the Gravettians. Ultimately, Europe is a sink, not a source of migration, and if we go back far enough, our remote ancestors came from Africa, which is about as "south" as you can get.

It's a fact, however, that when the farmers arrived from Anatolia, the WHG were already there, and the WHG became concentrated in the north and especially in the northeast either because they fled there, they could live on the fish on the sea, or, most importantly, because the Neolithic package of that times wasn't adapted to that climate and land.

EHG, also present in Europe before the farmers, is also more prevalent in the north.

Unfortunately for the Nordicists, it was the farmers who brought light pigmentation, which they prize so highly, to Europe.

 

[Silesian]

A-B-AB-O rh negative blood types are pretty unique to European people like Basque and Steppe. Modern day blood transfusions and women who are rh negative and married rh negative did not have to worry about losing their offspring.

Anyone know if the R1b1a1a found in Samara Russia Hunter Gatherer 6000BC +/- had blonde hair and or blue eyes? Is Samara Russia pottery predate the southern sphere arc Arc pottery?

 

[matadworf]

I also don't know what purpose it serves to go back to the Gravettians. Ultimately, Europe is a sink, not a source of migration, and if we go back far enough, our remote ancestors came from Africa, which is about as "south" as you can get.

It's a fact, however, that when the farmers arrived from Anatolia, the WHG were already there, and the WHG became concentrated in the north and especially in the northeast either because they fled there, they could live on the fish on the sea, or, most importantly, because the Neolithic package of that times wasn't adapted to that climate and land.

EHG, also present in Europe before the farmers, is also more prevalent in the north.

Unfortunately for the Nordicists, it was the farmers who brought light pigmentation, which they prize so highly, to Europe.

I know that’s the irony. I read this several years back and wondered why it wasn’t mentioned more at the time.

 

[real expert]

I know that’s the irony. I read this several years back and wondered why it wasn’t mentioned more at the time.

The irony is that I was accused of Nordicism here on Eupedia for stating that there were ancient Greeks and Romans that were naturally blond with blue eyes, albeit a minority. I was just going by primary sources and classical texts. People who suggested that EEF were not uniformly dark-haired and dark-eyed swarthy people were also shut down with the accusation of being Nordicists. Here's the thing not only the farmers but genetic drift and ANE ancestry in the Steppe population were also responsible for the lightening of skin and hair in Europeans.