David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Vallicanus]

The reason why Anatolia outweighs other regions like the Balkans, Levant or Northern Africa in ancestry of Imperial Rome in my opinion is because:
- Most migrations in Roman Empire were driven by slavery and the biggest slave market was settled in Delos. And it was significantly greater than any other market (the difference was not a small margin). And given the geography most slaves in Delos were of Anatolian origin. The second biggest market was Rhodes which also like Delos dealt with slaves largely of Anatolian ancestral heritage.
- Anatolia had a higher population than Italy, Levant, Balkans, Iberia so that might've played a role. The eastern shift in Rome Republic to Imperial Rome was caused:
1.) Slavery
2.) Soldiers
3.) Mobility migrations (such as Merchants, Artisans etc.)

Unfortunately, I don't see a big overlap between Anatolia and Italy in Y dna nor in phenotypes.

 

[ihype02]

1.) In Lazio and Abruzzo look at the ratio of J2a and R1b. R1b decreases while J2a increases in comparisons with Latins and Etruscans who were overwhelmingly R1b.

Abruzzo	(3)	(2)	(0)	(1)	5	38	9	22	6	11	6	3	0	107
	3%	2%	0%	1%	4.5%	35.5%	8.5%	21%	5.5%	10.5%	5.5%	3%	0%

Latium	(33)	(6)	(6)	(4)	8	112	43	72	7	63	18	0	7	386
	8.5%	1.5%	1.5%	1%	2%	29%	11%	18.5%	2%	16.5%	4.5%	0%	2%

2.) Central Italians are significantly more southern shifted compared to Latins, Etruscans and the upcoming and Samnite samples.
3.) Historical data and archaeological show the overcrowded cities of Italy being populated with people from East Mediterranean like in Rome and Pompeii.

 

[Vallicanus]

There is little overlap between Italy from Tuscany northwards and Anatolia.

The physical looks are also different in general including nasal length.

 

[Vallicanus]

Double Post

 

[ArmandoR1b]

From Strabo:

The first place in Cilicia, then, to which one comes, is a stronghold, Coracesium, situated on an abrupt rock, which was used by Diodotus, called Tryphon, as a base of operations at the time when he caused Syria to revolt from the kings and was fighting it out with them, being successful at one time and failing at another. Now Tryphon was hemmed up in a certain place by Antiochus, son of Demetrius, and forced to kill himself; and it was Tryphon, together with the worthlessness of the kings who by succession were then reigning over Syria and at the same time over Cilicia, who caused the Cilicians to organise their gangs of pirates; for on account of his revolutionary attempts others made

[COLOR=#FF3300 !important] p329 [/COLOR]
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like attempts at the same time, and thus the dissensions of brethren with one another put the country at the mercy of any who might attack it. The exportation of slaves induced them most of all to engage in their evil business, since it proved most profitable; for not only were they easily captured, but the market, which was large and rich in property, was not extremely far away, I mean Delos, which could both admit and send away ten thousand slaves on the same day; whence arose the proverb, "Merchant, sail in, unload your ship, everything has been sold." The cause of this was the fact that the Romans, having become rich after the destruction of Carthage and Corinth, used many slaves; and the pirates, seeing the easy profit therein, bloomed forth in great numbers, 669themselves not only going in quest of booty but also trafficking in slaves. The kings both of Cyprus and of Egypt co‑operated with them in this, being enemies to the Syrians.

Some people, such as myself, have a hard time reading posts that looks messy with different font sizes and so many hyperlinks and different colored text. If you care about us reading your posts you might try and maintain the same font size, not use so many hyperlinks, not use extra colors, and not bold so many different portions.

 

[ArmandoR1b]

Anecdotally it certainly works in my family's case. Half my father's family is red haired and they carry U-152 and come from the southern half of that dark sliver of darkest red in northern Italy which runs north/south.

SNPs are named as the major haplogroup letter such as R then a dash and then the letter indicating the lab then the number without any space or dash so R-U152 or U152 but not U-152.

 

[ArmandoR1b]

red hair seems to correlate with R1b

It's more likely a coincidence than a correlation.

 

[ihype02]

There is little overlap between Italy from Tuscany northwards and Anatolia.

The physical looks are also different in general including nasal length.

Phenotype can be very misleading. All Italians are still predominantly Italic, Etruscan and Messapian.

The East-Med related Y DNA in Central Italians is significant but around 20% to 30%, maximum, in Latium and Abruzzo.
Tuscans on the other have at most 15% from West Asia and Northern Africa combined together.
Even Lazio Italians seem to have roughly 10% E (non E-V13) while in Tuscany, E is almost 100% E-V13.

And in general Central Italians have lower West Asian related Y-DNA than official or non-official autosomal results show.


I am not sure what's with this disconnection between Y-DNA and autosomal results but also Germanic contribution could've had a male bias reducing those YDNA lines. But it's still not enough.

Remember when Albanians only had 12% Slavic I2a and R1a YDNA and they showed +30% North Slavic autosomal input in us. Until we found out new samples which fixed the issue lately. Maybe the same will turn true for Italy.

 

[ihype02]

Some people, such as myself, have a hard time reading posts that looks messy with different font sizes and so many hyperlinks and different colored text. If you care about us reading your posts you might try and maintain the same font size, not use so many hyperlinks, not use extra colors, and not bold so many different portions.

This is from an University site copy which came with the color directly. I press the "remove format" but it usually does not work.
Thank you for the heads up, Miranda Priestly.

 

[Vallicanus]

Phenotype can be very misleading. All Italians are still predominantly Italic, Etruscan and Messapian.

The East-Med related Y DNA in Central Italians is significant but around 20% to 30%, maximum, in Latium and Abruzzo.
Tuscans on the other have at most 15% from West Asia and Northern Africa combined together.
Even Lazio Italians seem to have roughly 10% E (non E-V13) while in Tuscany, E is almost 100% E-V13.

And in general Central Italians have lower West Asian related Y-DNA than official or non-official autosomal results show.


I am not sure what's with this disconnection between Y-DNA and autosomal results but also Germanic contribution could've had a male bias reducing those YDNA lines. But it's still not enough.

Remember when Albanians only had 12% Slavic I2a and R1a YDNA and they showed +30% North Slavic autosomal input in us. Until we found out new samples which fixed the issue lately. Maybe the same will turn true for Italy.

We definitely need more Iron Age samples from all over Italy.

 

[MOESAN]

The fact is that different Indo-European peoples lived in Iran, for example as I said ancient Illuri people in Luristan were Illyrian, Gaeli people in Gilan were Celtic but Kurds in Kurdistan were Indo-Iranian.

OK? a map is a map. But on it it seems to me I see names of diverse depth and meaning in History. What period of History is covered by this astonishing map?

 

[Moja]

Lol, Shahmiri you‘re so delusional. No one believes in your sick theories. Go find a doctor, it is time for you to go to therapy.

https://publons.com/wos-op/journal/847692/scientific-culture/

SCIENTIFIC CULTURE (Journal of Applied Science & Technology to Cultural Heritage Issues) is a double-blind peer-reviewed, open access international scientific journal , an open information vehicle for an academic community with a global coverage and issues touching global interest. SC publishes original papers that address the application of the natural sciences to solve, document, interpret, and disseminate cultural heritage topics and policy.

 

[Angela]

SNPs are named as the major haplogroup letter such as R then a dash and then the letter indicating the lab then the number without any space or dash so R-U152 or U152 but not U-152.

Who the heck do you think you are to tell me how to refer to a haplogroup? I've been posting about genetics on various sites for over 12 years and I've been a moderator here for a long time.

Anyone with half a brain knows exactly what I meant, and if I want to use a shorter notation I will.

You don't make the rules here or determine what's acceptable and what isn't. If you don't like how we do things here, then leave.

 

[Angela]

1.) In Lazio and Abruzzo look at the ratio of J2a and R1b. R1b decreases while J2a increases in comparisons with Latins and Etruscans who were overwhelmingly R1b.

Abruzzo	(3)	(2)	(0)	(1)	5	38	9	22	6	11	6	3	0	107
	3%	2%	0%	1%	4.5%	35.5%	8.5%	21%	5.5%	10.5%	5.5%	3%	0%

Latium	(33)	(6)	(6)	(4)	8	112	43	72	7	63	18	0	7	386
	8.5%	1.5%	1.5%	1%	2%	29%	11%	18.5%	2%	16.5%	4.5%	0%	2%

2.) Central Italians are significantly more southern shifted compared to Latins, Etruscans and the upcoming and Samnite samples.
3.) Historical data and archaeological show the overcrowded cities of Italy being populated with people from East Mediterranean like in Rome and Pompeii.

I have no idea what the numbers represent, if the boxes refer to the same exact y haplogroup, if it differentiates between J2b and J2a etc.

I guess you forgot how much R1b there is in Toscana, or perhaps you didn't, and that's why you didn't include it? The overall number is high enough, but in northern Toscana it's in the 60-70% range.

 

[ihype02]

I have no idea what the numbers represent, if the boxes refer to the same exact y haplogroup, if it differentiates between J2b and J2a etc.

I guess you forgot how much R1b there is in Toscana, or perhaps you didn't, and that's why you didn't include it? The overall number is high enough, but in northern Toscana it's in the 60-70% range.

Very little of it is J2b you can find the the numbers in Maciamos pages.

I did not forgot to include Toscana. I just used Lazio and Abruzzo as clearer example.

Toscana's Y DNA is around 85-90% European-related yes. J2a is roughly 10% there and other Y-DNA such a J1 and (non E-V13) E are few points together.
I don't know why Tuscans are so distant to Latins and Etruscans with all that R1b. They should've been at most, judging by Y DNA, only 10% shifted towards Cyprus but the distance is greater than that. IDK why.

 

[Angela]

The reason why Anatolia outweighs other regions like the Balkans, Levant or Northern Africa in ancestry of Imperial Rome in my opinion is because:
- Most migrations in Roman Empire were driven by slavery and the biggest slave market was settled in Delos. And it was significantly greater than any other market (the difference was not a small margin). And given the geography most slaves in Delos were of Anatolian origin. The second biggest market was Rhodes which also like Delos dealt with slaves largely of Anatolian ancestral heritage.
- Anatolia had a higher population than Italy, Levant, Balkans, Iberia so that might've played a role. The eastern shift in Rome Republic to Imperial Rome was caused:
1.) Slavery
2.) Soldiers
3.) Mobility migrations (such as Merchants, Artisans etc.)

I could swear I responded to this already, but I can't find it.

I would suggest you go back and pick up a comprehensive history of Rome and its wars, because you seem to have forgotten the 500,000 Gauls enslaved by Caesar during the Gallic Wars, a number which even if it is exaggerated represents one of the largest number of peoples enslaved until modern times. Then we can't forget the Iberians or Germani or the Britons. On top of that, surely you didn't forget the wars in the Balkans and the tens of thousands of slaves taken from there.

Does this stir a memory?
Colonna Traiana-

Now it has occurred to me in the past that there's a chance the Anatolians, many of them literate in Greek, might have been more valuable to their masters and therefore more likely to be manumitted and become clients of their former masters whereas those from illiterate lands might have been considered fit only for the latifundia, the ships, and the mines, or perhaps the gladiator schools and so didn't survive very long. That, however, is pure conjecture, although it's very likely to be true in the case of the Greeks captured during the conquest of Greece at least.

 

[mount123]

Unfortunately, I don't see a big overlap between Anatolia and Italy in Y dna nor in phenotypes.

Because there is no overlap. It is pseudo science. Also, J2a is a macro haplogroup designation with a formation date of 28700 years and TMRCA of 18300 years, it predates any of the ethnic affiliations that user desperately tried to make. I guess those Minoan J2a1 were also just "Imperial Roman" Anatolians from late antiquity that somehow travelled back in time. There is a clear pattern, I am sure you've already noticed, in the repetitive non evidential non sense from the Levantist-Anatolian fan club.

Just an example: an ancient sample from Ancona, Italy roughly 7290 year old https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17947*/

 

[Angela]

Very little of it is J2b you can find the the numbers in Maciamos pages.

I did not forgot to include Toscana. I just used Lazio and Abruzzo as clearer example.

Toscana's Y DNA is around 85-90% European-related yes. J2a is roughly 10% there and other Y-DNA such a J1 and (non E-V13) E are few points together.
I don't know why Tuscans are so distant to Latins and Etruscans with all that R1b. They should've been at most, judging by Y DNA, only 10% shifted towards Cyprus but the distance is greater than that. IDK why.

Did it ever occur to you that the calculators upon which you rely are faulty? I would also point out that J2a has been in Italy since the Bronze Age, or had you forgotten?

 

[ihype02]

I could swear I responded to this already, but I can't find it.

I would suggest you go back and pick up a comprehensive history of Rome and its wars, because you seem to have forgotten the 500,000 Gauls enslaved by Caesar during the Gallic Wars, a number which even if it is exaggerated represents one of the largest number of peoples enslaved until modern times. Then we can't forget the Iberians or Germani or the Britons. On top of that, surely you didn't forget the wars in the Balkans and the tens of thousands of slaves taken from there.

Does this stir a memory?
Colonna Traiana-

Now it has occurred to me in the past that there's a chance the Anatolians, many of them literate in Greek, might have been more valuable to their masters and therefore more likely to be manumitted and become clients of their former masters whereas those from illiterate lands might have been considered fit only for the latifundia, the ships, and the mines, or perhaps the gladiator schools and so didn't survive very long. That, however, is pure conjecture, although it's very likely to be true in the case of the Greeks captured during the conquest of Greece at least.

(Yes those numbers are hyperbolic according to historian 200,000 slaves rebelled in Sicily. That is a huge number and far away from reality.)

Actually I have done research about that. And I have asked that question to myself: what about so many Gaul's that were enslaved or other people.
So I have not come up with an ideal answer but I can say this:
1.) Regardless of how many Britons, Iberians or Gauls that were enslaved, in Sicily the slaves were overwhelmingly from Eastern Mediterranean. That's a historical fact.
the nationalities of the known world could be seen, but most of the slaves in Sicily had their origins in the eastern Mediterranean. The owner of slaves, in Roman antiquity, had complete power over them, even that of life and death
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Spartacus/qfmEfDsq-6IC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=most+slaves+in+sicily+eastern+mediterranean&pg=PA118&printsec=frontcover

The same is also true for Pompeii after 80BC.
Not aware for other regions.
2.) Enslavement of Thracians or Gauls does not necessarily imply this population was transplanted to Italy.

 

[ihype02]

Did it ever occur to you that the calculators upon which you rely are faulty? I would also point out that J2a has been in Italy since the Bronze Age, or had you forgotten?

It's not just the amateur calculators, it is the same thing in academic PCA. Some times I am skeptical whenever they are both faulty you know. Academics are not omniscient either.

J2a did exist in Italy and some other parts of Europe but outside of Greece and Greek colonies it was a not significant line. The Campanian study has over 100 Italic samples so we will see.

Let's wait and see what Reich says about the shift.