David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[johen]

There was a massive movement of chariot using steppe groups after Sintashta developed actual, lichter chariots.
They spread in all directions, which brought up Indo-Iranian expansions, including the Mitanni.
In the West they crushed into Unetice, which was already under pressure from Tumulus culture in the West. Same for the Pannonian Tell cultures and Wietenberg, which got hit by Noua.
Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni is the main group for Central and South Eastern Europe and they pushed into the Carpathians and Balkans.
Shortly after the Mycenaean Greeks come up and presumably the Central Eastern European ancestry in the Aegeans.
And it is exactly at that time that chariots appear in the Aegean as well, for the first time.
So Proto-Greeks seem to have been chariot using when coming to the Aegean, like many of the expanding groups around that time.
You also see the great importance of chariots in the early Mycenaean culture.

Who are they? I think they are related with seima turbino expansion:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png

unetice culture:

similar type of dagger in seima turbino:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...5E2sQ&usqp=CAU

Età del bronzo arcaica, pugnali, 2200-1600 ac ca:

brooches of Seima turbino Borodino site around black sea:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...2ahUKEwj77rO99Mn4AhUbIjQIHUEUD5kQMygAegQIARAf

same brooch in circle A

Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on SEIMA TURBINO dagger:
http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png
​

 

[Moja]

A new study: Assessing temporal and geographic contacts across the Adriatic Sea through the analysis of genome-wide data from Southern Italy

Highlights

• Complex interactions between the two sides of the Adriatic Sea unveiled from the genomes of present-day Southern Europeans

• Uneven affinity between Neolithic Greeks and Southern Italians confirms the importance of post-Iron Age demographic events.

• Shared Iran Neolithic-related ancestry suggests gene flows along the Mediterranean Sea shores that started in the Bronze Age.

• Putatively adaptive signals in Northern and Southern Italians associated with alcohol metabolism and immunological traits.


Recently, the availability of ancient Southern European genomes helped in disentangling the dynamics of the early stages of the Pontic Steppe populations diffusion that occurred in the Bronze Age period [14,15]. Differently from the rest of Europe, Greece and Southern Italy appear to have been less impacted by this demic dispersal, being characterised by an additional Iranian-related ancestry.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

There was a massive movement of chariot using steppe groups after Sintashta developed actual, lichter chariots.
They spread in all directions, which brought up Indo-Iranian expansions, including the Mitanni.
In the West they crushed into Unetice, which was already under pressure from Tumulus culture in the West. Same for the Pannonian Tell cultures and Wietenberg, which got hit by Noua.
Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni is the main group for Central and South Eastern Europe and they pushed into the Carpathians and Balkans.
Shortly after the Mycenaean Greeks come up and presumably the Central Eastern European ancestry in the Aegeans.
And it is exactly at that time that chariots appear in the Aegean as well, for the first time.
So Proto-Greeks seem to have been chariot using when coming to the Aegean, like many of the expanding groups around that time.
You also see the great importance of chariots in the early Mycenaean culture.

Maybe. But what has Catacomb culture have to do with it? Did they have chariots or wooden wagons? Do their wagon model has any parallels in Greece or the Balkans?

The increase of 'Central Eastern European' ancestry can be important if there was an introduction of new Y-DNA lines.

The chariot reached Egypt too with the Hyksos. (I personally say that the Retjenu Hyksos seem Aegean like but today the mainstream view is they were speaking a Semetic language, so we would have chariots and horse spreading with Semetic speakers too, or not?)

 

[Riverman]

Seima-Turbino just started in a similar way, because it spread the chariots and with the chariots too.

Maybe. But what has Catacomb culture have to do with it? Did they have chariots or wooden wagons? Do their wagon model has any parallels in Greece or the Balkans?

The increase of 'Central Eastern European' ancestry can be important if there was an introduction of new Y-DNA lines.

The indication is that the mixed Balkan group was dominated by R-Z2103 and J2a. This is also what brings Catacomb/MCW into play, because it looks like this group had a stronger presence of R-Z2103 from their Yamnaya ancestors, unlike the later Cimmerians and Scythians, among which Sintashta related R1a began to drastically rise in frequency. Therefore, if they would descend from a Cimmerian or Iranian related group, we would expect way more R1a in Greeks and Armenians, but their main marker, in both people, is definitely R-Z2103.

And we also know that MCW expanded in the direction of the Balkans/Greece, which brought them in the ideal position to spread this kind of "Central Eastern European" ancestry.

The chariot reached Egypt too with the Hyksos. (I personally say that the Retjenu Hyksos seem Aegean like but today the mainstream view is they were speaking a Semetic language, so we would have chariots and horse spreading with Semetic speakers too, or not?)

The Hyksos seem to have been a multi-ethnic alliance, which clearly got influenced by the chariot complex groups which entered from various directions the Near East, especially the Mitanni Iranians. Once the chariot appeared, it quickly spread and could be taken up by different people, so the first impact is the biggest one usually.
In the case of the Proto-Greeks I'd say they definitely brought it to the Aegean, probably with earlier contacts and coming under pressure from Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni themselves.

Just like the LBA collapse scenario, we're dealing with a chain event of one group pushing the other.

So to put it simple, I expect the pre-Greek Aegeans to have little R-Z2103, but it should have rosen to higher levels (not that high though!) in the MBA-LBA transition, together with the more Northern/steppe shift and the introduction of chariots.

 

[Philjames100]

I personally say that the Retjenu Hyksos seem Aegean like

Why do you think that? It would fit nicely with Greek mythology, Danaus etc.

 

[Philjames100]

So to put it simple, I expect the pre-Greek Aegeans to have little R-Z2103, but it should have rosen to higher levels (not that high though!) in the MBA-LBA transition, together with the more Northern/steppe shift and the introduction of chariots.

There was already an influx of steppe ancestry around 2000 BC:

"Middle Bronze Age individuals of northern Greece differ from Early Bronze Age populations in showing ∼50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. ... The timing of such gene flow into the ancestors of the Helladic-Middle Bronze Age ought to have occurred by ∼1,900 BCE.”

- Clemente et al. 2021

 

[Angela]

For the record, we've been saying on this site for years, or at least I have, that the Mycenaeans were probably R-Z103.

I also found any relationship between the Proto-Greeks and Corded Ware somewhat unlikely, positing that they most likely stemmed from Catacomb Culture and thus ultimately Yamnaya.

We'll see what the Reich paper shows.

 

[Angela]

The 50% figure is only if you limit it to two groups.

Also from Clemente et al:

"The primary feature distinguishing the Helladic-Logkas-MBA from the contemporary Minoan-Lasithi-MBA, as well as from the EBA populations, is the higher proportion of “European HG-like” ancestry. For instance, in ADMIXTURE, the “European HG-like” component accounts for 26%–34% of the overall Logkas ancestry, more than four times greater than the 2%–6% found in the Aegean EBA individuals (Figure 3). Similarly, in qpWave/qpAdm, a Helladic-Logkas-MBA individual (Log04) was consistent with a 3-way admixture model, deriving ∼58% of her ancestry from Aegean Neolithic populations; the remaining ancestry can be attributed to CHG-like and EHG-like sources (accounting for ∼16% and ∼27%, respectively)—that is, having a much greater contribution from EHG as compared to the EBA Aegeans (Table 3). Because EHG and CHG are the major components of Steppe-related populations (e.g., Steppe_EMBA with 66% EHG-like and 34% IranN/CHG-like0 (Figure 3), consistent with previous results (de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018), this supports the hypothesis that populations from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe contributed to the ancestry of the Helladic-Logkas-MBA individuals. This combined ancestry has been observed in central, western, and northern BA Europeans and interpreted as the result of a “massive” Steppe migration (Allentoft et al., 2015; Haak et al., 2015; Jones et al., 2015; Mathieson et al., 2018; Olalde et al., 2019). Our ADMIXTURE estimates are consistent with an increase of EHG components in the Late Neolithic and EBA in most regions of Europe, including in the Balkans (Figure 3; Document S1). Yet, in Anatolia, such an increase in EHG-like ancestry is residual, and in the Aegean, it is only seen later in the MBA (Helladic-Logkas-MBA) and LBA (Mycenaean) individuals, suggesting a later arrival of Steppe-related ancestry in the Aegean."

 

[Riverman]

There was already an influx of steppe ancestry around 2000 BC:

"Middle Bronze Age individuals of northern Greece differ from Early Bronze Age populations in showing ∼50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. ... The timing of such gene flow into the ancestors of the Helladic-Middle Bronze Age ought to have occurred by ∼1,900 BCE.”

- Clemente et al. 2021

The earliest IE which moved through might have been the Anatolians though and related to the Cernavoda complex which entered the region of Troy as well. This is of course a major issue for the PIE debate, which makes the sites around Troy and Cernavoda key cultural formations without which any sort of debate about the Proto-Anatolians is a failure.

Interestingly, those came with Corded decorated Western groups, which might not have been dominated by R-Z2103 like the steppe ancestors of Greco-Armenian. What hg's they had, well, R1a likely, but we don't really know. Usatovo and Corded Ware, both part of the Corded decorated ceramic groups of the Western steppe, had R1a, and Sredny Stog will also have it.

 

[Riverman]

Yet, in Anatolia, such an increase in EHG-like ancestry is residual, and in the Aegean, it is only seen later in the MBA (Helladic-Logkas-MBA) and LBA (Mycenaean) individuals, suggesting a later arrival of Steppe-related ancestry in the Aegean."

That's key. It seems to have been like the Sea Peoples in Egypt: The Aegeans bought/fought them off and they moved on to Anatolia (Cernavoda-related early groups). Some Sea Peoples groups also moved around some heavily fortified or difficult to take areas, just to pop up much more to the South-South East. Same here.

The key transition for the Aegean happened later, in the MBA-LBA transition, when these chariot riding R-Z2103 carrying Catacomb/MCW related groups came in and kind of broke the resistence, fused with the locals.

 

[ihype02]

Do you mean they pulled them South?

Well, of course they did pull them North. Even if people argue the uniparentals are too low, they are still significant on a low level, with the lowest of all estimates. So they had an effect, probably just not the big one some people propose.



Agreed, but then again: We don't know the actual effect of both on the total population. Its still guesswork and might differ from region to region.



Might be not as clear cut as you suggest it is. You need a proper reference for the locals, the newcomers and the additional gene flow which might have taken place.

My conclusion: This debate is not over yet, but some claims (just some quarters, not important for Italy as a whole) are being falsified by now. It mattered even for areas like Viminacium and Linz, Upper Austria. Levantine shifted and exotic individuals will pop up as far as the Netherlands and Western Germany too.
It was a real thing, it had an effect. Talking about haplogroups, we can still find some of those more exotic haplogroups in all those places to this day in the modern autochthonous population. So its not all gone. Even on the contrary, due to later migration, it spread to areas outside of the Roman zone.

I just meant that Germanic admixture was not that significant as you implied.

My explanation is the only possible option.

 

[Angela]

I'll say it again.

U-106 and I1 are not a big enough presence in Toscana to change those "Imperial Age" Tuscans into Modern Tuscans.

You can't even say that Germanic women changed the population, because the Lombard laws prohibited the marriage of Lombard women with local males. The Goths weren't any better in that regard even though they left Romans in charge of the administration of Italia. People ought to read them some day; sounds like South Africa under apartheid. The Anglo Saxons instituted similar laws after they took over Britain.

So, either those "Imperial Age Tuscans" were not representative, or the locals from the mountains came down and bred them out of existence, or both.

Lots of places to hide from invaders in Italy. Kesselring, that war criminal, made our mountains his last line of defense in his "fighting retreat". They couldn't find our partisans even though they were in the same mountains harassing their troops, so he passed an edict: ten civilians executed for every German soldier killed. Whole villages of women and children were slaughtered along with their priests.

That's why we haven't been able to feed ourselves without imports for most of our history. It was even worse in Roman times because most of the now green Po Valley was a fever ridden swamp until they drained it.

The Gothic Line:

 

[Philjames100]

Who are they? I think they are related with seima turbino expansion:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png

unetice culture:

You'll like this:

 

[lynxbythetv]

whats the explanation for heavily J2 populations not speaking a semetic la guage nor an indo european one ?

talking about the chechens and ingush.

 

[peloponnesian]

whats the explanation for heavily J2 populations not speaking a semetic la guage nor an indo european one ?

talking about the chechens and ingush.

J2 is older than these linguistic groupings

 

[Riverman]

whats the explanation for heavily J2 populations not speaking a semetic la guage nor an indo european one ?
talking about the chechens and ingush.

J seems to have been concentrated in and around the Caucasus, but how quickly things can change you can see in the Semites, which came up when E1b1b Afro-Asiatics fused with a J1 population and in turn J1 became the dominant Semitic language which spread in the Bronze Age to the rest of Arabia.

 

[Philjames100]

Who are they? I think they are related with seima turbino expansion:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png

unetice culture:

To clarify, the point of my post was the snake depicted on the sword.

 

[johen]

To clarify, the point of my post was the snake depicted on the sword.

You'll like this:

Thanks, I guessed that way and I saw triangle patterns on dagger handle. Thus I posted it on my thread yesterday.
I also think the snake is thunderbolt;
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...oning-Seima-Turbino/page5?p=649979#post649979

I think this pattern of triangle(horse mane) up and two snake(diamond) down originated from seima turbino, still surviving in Ukraine:

same pattern of triangle and two snakes on dagger:

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/tr...y-8167441.html

relevant PIE culture:

"Traces of the devotion to the horse’s head on the part of the Indo-European peoples can be found in the archaic Roman ritual practice, Roman legends, Greek “feasts of the dead,” or Avar burial rituals; such a devotion has survived among the Byelorussians living in Polesie, etc.(Ivanov, 1989: 79, 80, 83, 84). During the “feasts of the dead” – ancient Greek wakes – the feast would take place in front of the horse’s head, which is represented on funerary reliefs (Sternberg, 1916: 183). At these ancient nekrodipnoses, the deceased appeared to be feasting in the midst of his family and servants; the representations of a horse’s head and a snake were present there (Freidenberg,1997: 62). E.E. Kuzmina interpreted them as expressing the notion “of the ability of the horse, especially its head,to revive the person” (Kuzmina, 1977: 42), whereas O.M. Freidenberg believed that “the semantics of thesnake and horse as the underground principles has long been revealed” (Freidenberg, 1997: 62)."

"The Rig Veda has preserved the stable residue of the previous, more archaic semantic meaning of vajra . The Indo-Aryan concept of vajra goes back to the “horse-headed” insignia of the social and sacred leader similarbto the magic attribute functionally comparable to the tambourines or “horse” canes (among the Buryats) of the shamans. It is possible that the idea of the involvement of the horse’s head in the seat of supernatural knowledge and in implementation of the divine providence was formed at this stage. A “horse-headed” vajra in the hands of a person with high social status, not only clothed with authority of the leader, but also with the priestly prerogatives was the personification and substitution of such qualities of a supreme deity."

"A yoke of twin horses is associated with the Indo-European concept of the Heavenly Twins, one of whom is mortal, represented among the Greeks"

 

[enter_tain]

I'm really curious to see how much of that Roman Imperial admixture there are in modern Balkan populations.

I expect the Albanian samples in the Iron Age to be similar to the Montenegro one without Roman Imperial admixture. So a bit more west/north-west shifted.

Greek samples would also show similar admixture.

 

[Riverman]

I'm really curious to see how much of that Roman Imperial admixture there are in modern Balkan populations.

I'd say this can only be properly assessed with better references. In an ideal case you get some first generations mixed individuals on the table. Because rather minor, yet still significant, admixture can be hidden in the mix quite nicely. Even more so if the other component is way more extreme (like Baltoslavic and Germanic), pulling the total in a more average component's direction.

But I think there is no way any Balkan population could have escaped it, because it was reaching much further to the North.