David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

Now the Latins and Etruscans don't have steppe ancestry?

From this message, where exactly do you draw the conclusion that they don't have Steppe ancestry?

Central Italian Iron Age samples cluster relatively close to those who lived there 1000 years earlier. There is no shift, ethnically speaking, to Central Europe although there are Celtic outliers among the Etruscans.

Both ITA_Central_MBA and ITA_Central_IA were Steppe-admixed, just look at their intermediate position between Sardinia and Central Europe in the PCA.

Did you come to this site only to t-roll and spread disinformation?

How come all this butthurtness?
 
Latin--fascis ---Latins R1b L51 and Z2103
Fasces.svg
Italian: fascio littorio) is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe (occasionally two axes) with its blade emergingEtymology[edit]

From Proto-Indo-European *bʰask- (“bundle, band”), see also Proto-Celtic *baskis (“bundle, load”), Ancient Greek φάκελος (phákelos, “bundle”), Albanian bashkë (“together”), Old English bæst (“inner bark of the linden tree”), Welsh baich (“load, burden”), Middle Irish basc (“neckband”).

995bf19dd815fed520e9d91de45f9af6.jpg



Steppe Stele
Kernosovskiy idol





%D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB.png



Silesian, I don't understand what point you want to make, but it is very well known that the Fasces is Etruscan and the Romans borrows it from the Etruscans.

"The symbol of the fasces originated with the Etruscans, the earliest being found an iron set in an Etruscan tomb of the 7th century BC at Vetulonia."

13MClOn.png


https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1983-1229-1
 
From this message, where exactly do you draw the conclusion that they don't have Steppe ancestry?



Both ITA_Central_MBA and ITA_Central_IA were Steppe-admixed, just look at their intermediate position between Sardinia and Central Europe in the PCA.



How come all this butthurtness?

If I misunderstood your meaning in this particular case, my apologies. I posted too hastily, not thinking the matter through. However, this isn't twitter, and we're not using texts; a few sentences explaining one's meaning clearly wouldn't go amiss, especially when there's no apparent relation of the post to the current conversation.

Also, try to express yourself without the coarse language of some younger males. Next time you use inappropriate language you'll get an infraction for it. You're not talking in a bar or club or in someone's home with your male friends. It also isn't eurogenes.

Think of it as an intellectual salon of the French type. :)
 
Latin--fascis ---Latins R1b L51 and Z2103
Fasces.svg
Italian: fascio littorio) is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe (occasionally two axes) with its blade emergingEtymology[edit]

From Proto-Indo-European *bʰask- (“bundle, band”), see also Proto-Celtic *baskis (“bundle, load”), Ancient Greek φάκελος (phákelos, “bundle”), Albanian bashkë (“together”), Old English bæst (“inner bark of the linden tree”), Welsh baich (“load, burden”), Middle Irish basc (“neckband”).

995bf19dd815fed520e9d91de45f9af6.jpg



Steppe Stele
Kernosovskiy idol





%D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB.png

Good grief, Silesian, what does Abraham Lincoln have to do with any of this?

Be careful now, he's one of my absolute heroes! :)
 
The roots of orientalising are clearly in some way in the Fertile Crescent, I don't think there is much doubt about this, further east than the Aegean area, the Aegean area being the first area to adopt orientalising before it arrived in the central and western Mediterranean.


zNIxPRH.png




RYKuSjX.png


I always thought the origin of the orientalizing style was the Aegean. My bad, thanks for clarifying that.
 
Well, it does show that there was ancient J1 and J2 on the steppe, and I'm grateful to Stuvane for providing it.

However, if you have a link or file with a complete list of all such samples further refined, could you provide it? That would be very helpful. Thanks in advance for looking for it if it exists.

I understand that, just wanted to point out that there are some further samples missing and that the nomenclatures are rather vague. This site might be helpful to you https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/46.10/15.03

Just put in the nomenclature of a haplogroup whose aDNA coverage you want to see and it gives you a list of samples with the linked papers. Dislaimer: it does have some errors in portraying the map properly not sure if it has just been the case when using my devices and might be totally okay for others. Nonetheless you'll get a list on the side with the info you are looking for (id of samples, haplogroups, archeological data, links to studies etc.). It is also fairly often updated.

In regards to „J2“ or „J1“ on the steppe: we have also known for quite a while now of rumored due to be published Chalcolithic J2b-L283 (J2b2a1) samples from the Western steppe.

Never did I claim that map was the holy Bible or revealed Truth. As Angela explained It is only a first support tool to identify ancient Js and subclades of J scattered across the Eurasian continent, including the steppes.
I point out that by clicking on each sample, a cross-reference to the scientific publication in which it is mentioned appears (many of them with a link). You are free to check them one by one for errors, inaccuracies or omissions.
I will not go into their nomenclature, which is now updated with every breath we take: on the contrary, if anyone wants to update the whole tool, putting it in place or wants to propose a more precise and functional one, he is welcome to do so.


We are all here to learn

Nor did I intend to accuse you of doing that. I have made my intention clear in my response to Angela above. Agreed. I am here to learn too :)

I once had links to really good J2a-L70 and J2a-M67 aDNA interactive maps but seem to have not saved them. I think I picked them up at this website: https://j2-m172.info/ Since you're J2 this could interest you (in case you didn't already know). There are volunteer scientists from the genetics field over there and admins of FTDNA groups too. It is a great source, IMO.

Also, a great up to date map of aDNA coverage of J2b-L283 (J2b2a1) in case you are interested. (Courtesy of Veseli)

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...S&ll=48.74992772963409,27.633824999999966&z=5
 
Silesian, I don't understand what point you want to make, but it is very well known that the Fasces is Etruscan and the Romans borrows it from the Etruscans.

"The symbol of the fasces originated with the Etruscans, the earliest being found an iron set in an Etruscan tomb of the 7th century BC at Vetulonia."

13MClOn.png


https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1983-1229-1

Sorry not interested in Etruscans, unless they used an axe in hand to hand challenges for dominance and or combat like the R1b steppe ancestors of the Latins. As far as iron use, unless it is older than Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Catacombe(proto Latins-) R1b-Z2103/L51+ steppe not interested, sorry.

Emancipation_Memorial.jpg
 
I’m super interested in the Steppe admixture of Classical Greeks particularly Laconians.
 
Sorry not interested in Etruscans, unless they used an axe in hand to hand challenges for dominance and or combat like the R1b steppe ancestors of the Latins. As far as iron use, unless it is older than Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Catacombe(proto Latins-) R1b-Z2103/L51+ steppe not interested, sorry.

Emancipation_Memorial.jpg



In my opinion, these are topics that deserve reasoning ability and a minimum of effort and knowledge. Your answer is meaningless. What answer would be "I am not interested"? You brought up the example of Fasces. Just saying, even the Etruscans were predominantly R1b. The fact remains that the Latins/Romans borrowed Fasces from the Etruscans, whether you are interested or not.
 
In my opinion, these are topics that deserve reasoning ability and a minimum of effort and knowledge. Your answer is meaningless. Just saying, even the Etruscans were predominantly R1b. The fact remains that the Latins/Romans borrowed fasces from the Etruscans, whether you are interested or not.
. A long time ago (10years)I used to debate the origins of R1b with someone who contributed to the Grugni et al paper2012. He was very adamant that R1b was from the location around the Near East similar to what some of the poster's are posting. He made really good images of frequency rates-R1b-Z2103 in Sicily and Southern Italy and connected it with the Near East. Last I heard he took up a new hobby, something like gardening. Sometimes our understanding changes. Trying to extrapolate R1b from the Near East is nothing new. The difference this time around is how it relates to PIE.
 
. A long time ago (10years)I used to debate the origins of R1b with someone who contributed to the Grugni et al paper2012. He was very adamant that R1b was from the location around the Near East similar to what some of the poster's are posting. He made really good images of frequency rates-R1b-Z2103 in Sicily and Southern Italy and connected it with the Near East. Last I heard he took up a new hobby, something like gardening. Sometimes our understanding changes. Trying to extrapolate R1b from the Near East is nothing new. The difference this time around is how it relates to PIE.

Grugni et al 2012 do you mean this? I don't hold the Italian geneticists involved in that study in high esteem, so I have no trouble thinking they were wrong.

Grugni, V., Battaglia, V., Hooshiar Kashani, B., Parolo, S., Al-Zahery, N., Achilli, A., Olivieri, A., Gandini, F., Houshmand, M., Sanati, M. H., Torroni, A., & Semino, O. (2012). Ancient migratory events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-chromosome variation of modern Iranians. PLoS One, 7(7), 1-14. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
 
Grugni et al 2012 do you mean this? I don't hold the Italian geneticists involved in that study in high esteem, so I have no trouble thinking they were wrong.
Grugni, V., Battaglia, V., Hooshiar Kashani, B., Parolo, S., Al-Zahery, N., Achilli, A., Olivieri, A., Gandini, F., Houshmand, M., Sanati, M. H., Torroni, A., & Semino, O. (2012). Ancient migratory events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-chromosome variation of modern Iranians. PLoS One, 7(7), 1-14. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
No I made a mistake, that was the study with Lurs sampling. It was a Meyers et al study showing L23. Those were the good ol'day's. It's when I met a poster on another forum who was from the Samara region in Russia with R1b-L277+. One Polish blogger with a horse riding Connan like personality would debate R1b from the Southern Arc, as well as one well known South Asian, and a Armenian who made a YouTube video as well as one Russian who labeled R1b as Arbins. One by one they have all been proven wrong.
 
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Sorry not interested in Etruscans, unless they used an axe in hand to hand challenges for dominance and or combat like the R1b steppe ancestors of the Latins. As far as iron use, unless it is older than Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Catacombe(proto Latins-) R1b-Z2103/L51+ steppe not interested, sorry.

Emancipation_Memorial.jpg

Sorry, not interested in your pseudo-Nordicist Steppe fetish.
The Etruscans were largely R1b, including R-L2 which is pretty European, just like the IE-speaking Latins and Etruscans and Latins were similar at the autosomal level too..both groups were much more EEF than Steppe.
 
The owner of Eupedia believes that R-M269 descends from the Southern Arc and crossed the Caucasus on to the steppe sometime in the 5th millennium BC.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml
. At one time I use to debate the R1b-V88 deep ancestral roots in Africa. One be one these ideas are being overturned when one looks at the SNPs connected lineages from ancient genetic samples.
 
Sorry, not interested in your pseudo-Nordicist Steppe fetish.
The Etruscans were largely R1b, including R-L2 which is pretty European, just like the IE-speaking Latins and Etruscans and Latins were similar at the autosomal level too..both groups were much more EEF than Steppe.
There is one Italian professor who belonged to the same SNP cluster as myself. When Reich and company published R1b-754 Villabruno 14k+/- he came to the conclusion that those Etruscan samples did not have anything to do with the stepe, but we're native, he called it the Italian refugium of R1b in Europe. On a another note, I remember emailing Zawhii Hawass as to the actual King Tut ydna results ,since there was a theory floating around that he was connected in lineage to a Hittite line. This was before my interest in iron found on the steppe and Tut's iron meteor blade burial.
 
Basically, Maciamo Hay has R1b M269 and all descendent branches traced back to the eastern wing of the southern arc. This was his theory from more than 10 years ago.
 
Basically, Maciamo Hay has R1b M269 and all descendent branches traced back to the eastern wing of the southern arc. This was his theory from more than 10 years ago.
We have to wait and see maybe he is right. As it stands right now Villabruno R1b-754 14k+/- line is older than anything from Southern Arc region.
 

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