David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[johen]

Culture is not necessarily the same as language.

As I remembered, the reason of Reich’s claim that yamna people as a caucasus cline was speaking PIE is not only gene flow but also cultural flow from caucasus to pontic steppe.
Moreover I think he has a full confidence that yamna people migrated to south asia.
Archaeologically this migration has lots of big hurdles.
For example sintashta cannot have an origin in CWC and andronovo did not reach south asia. As for me, seima turbino is another big hurdle. Until 1,700bc, ST had bombarded east Europe like mongol. After that, chariot people trampled whole Europe with Apa sword of snake inscription (looks like vajra). Problem is the archaeological PIE culture of the chariot people has something to do with ST, not sintashta.

 

[Moja]

can you ask your friend who works with david reich
if they found some E at all in those paper ?
i can't hang on till friday

It seems he has promised to not reveal any data, I just asked some questions regarding Iran and he replied, I'm not sure what he said are from these articles or his personal opinions.

 

[kingjohn]

It seems he has promised to not reveal any data, I just asked some questions regarding Iran and he replied, I'm not sure what he said are from these articles or his personal opinions.

Ok
Bummer
Thanks
Anyway

 

[Moja]

On another side, a proto-Vasconic people in Iran increase again the non IE languages number in South Caucasus/Caspian and restrains the possible proto-IE space to find birth.

Whether we call them a proto-Vasconic people or another people who also migrated to west of Europe from the steppe, the main point is that they were not these people who spread Indo-European culture in Anatolia because Bronze/Iron Age Anatolians had no steppe ancestry.

 

[Angela]

To me it looks like he favors the Dienekes Pontikos theory which is an area approximately surrounded by South Caucasus in the North, Anatolia in the West, Iran in the East, and Middle East in the South. In the location so called by Dienekes the Womb of Nations. Sandwiched between Proto-Kartvelians in the North and Proto-Semitics in the South.

Don't take the above encircled area too literally, i think if we shift somewhat more to North-East then we might get Reich's vision.

I definitely think it's to the northeast of that.

This is the map for G/I:

One of the major things wrong with it, which was clear from the time of the Lazaridis paper on the Mycenaeans, is that it doesn't, imo, explain the "steppe, i.e.part EHG like" ancestry in said Mycenaeans, although Lazaridis himself left open the possibility of "Greeks from the east" a la the Drews formulation. Perhaps it could be explained through a different flow from the north.

Since the Reich Lab is still trying to work with Anthony, I doubt they'll go this far.

It also occurs to me to wonder if they found a sample in a Hittite context, and there's no "steppe" in it.

 

[Philjames100]

Lazaridis himself left open the possibility of "Greeks from the east" a la the Drews formulation. Perhaps it could be explained through a different flow from the north.

Laziridis suggested the possibility of migration from the steppe to the south Caucasus and from there to Greece. That's his 'Greeks from the east' model, and also that which was suggested by Drews.

 

[Moja]

The oldest known city in Iran is Susa, ancient Greeks believed that their ancestors built this city, Herodotus called it "the city of Memnon".

 

[kingjohn]

Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
You should add Greeks as well, as it seems we'll get a couple of PF7562 samples from Mycenaean Pylos.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos
P.s
I guess this is a leak there is also a leak
About j2-L70 in another mycenaean individual
Originally Posted by Pribislav view post
By far the oldest ancient J2a-L70 is rumored to have been found in a Mycenaean sample from Troezen/Galatas on the Argolid Peninsula, we should get more details in a few days.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troezen

 

[Angela]

^^BINGO!

I predicted it.

 

[Hawk]

Why did i ask moja if he can check if this paper found E cases
Thats because modern kurds do carry branches of E and they live in the exact areas which
Are the focus of this southern Arc paper.
So i expect some :
E-m84> pf6751, e-m84>y5435 and even e-v13
To show up to some extent at least in the most recent period chronologicaly ( iron age/ historical paper)

Well, the first leaks on Southern Arch paper, involved E-V13 in Iron Age Bulgaria among Thracian pits.

 

[Philjames100]

I wonder if any study on Mycenaean Greece will ever include samples from Mycenae?

 

[Palermo Trapani]

I wonder if any study on Mycenaean Greece will ever include samples from Mycenae?

I am sure there will be one at some point. A question formulated 2 different ways: 1) What do you expect such samples will reveal and 2) What do you hope that those samples will reveal?

 

[Philjames100]

I am sure there will be one at some point. A question formulated 2 different ways: 1) What do you expect such samples will reveal and 2) What do you hope that those samples will reveal?

I don't know what they would reveal, but I find it odd that neither the Lazaridis study or apparently the upcoming one from Reich has any samples from there. Why not?
"Anywhere but Mycenae" apparently.

 

[Philjames100]

sintashta cannot have an origin in CWC

Why not?

Apa sword of snake inscription (looks like vajra).

Apa swords are from the Carpathian basin.

 

[johen]

The oldest known city in Iran is Susa, ancient Greeks believed that their ancestors built this city, Herodotus called it "the city of Memnon".

Can you tell me who were the first caste in Iran during mongol regime?

The reason to ask is the mysterious Seima turbino (2,300 – 1,700bc). This culture spread whole Eurasia, even southeast asia 2,000bc. However, strange thing is they buried tons of their weapons w/o human bones like mongol at early stage which kept lots of vassal states. The ST seems to be clearly connected to the celtic, Balkan, Nordic, Greek bronze and sanauli south asia and china bronze.
Recently I knew that 2 russian scholars already smelled PIE culture in seima turbino 10 years ago before I did on 2018 to open the thread. One scholar explained in the ST culture as vedic Aryan culture while the other called ST culture as "Seima turbino Tocharian" due to their impact upon china bronze.

Problem is population genetics.
Chinese bronze age started at shimao pyramid like a castle on mountain, Qijia and erlitou where seima turbino weapons were found. However, their Hgs are O and C. Moreover, I remembered that Chinese scholar connected their genetic admixture to neolithic yangshao farming culture. (Hittite to CHG admixture in Iran?)

 

[MOESAN]

In addition to Reich's new genetic research, speaking of Proto-Semitic, I am now reminded of the similarities that exist between the word "seven" in most Indo-European languages and the corresponding word in Semitic languages, for example "seven" in English, "saba" in Arabic, " Shabbat" in Hebrew and "Sebati" in Amharic.
Not to mention of the question of the Hamito-Semitic Substratum in Insular Celtic.
Could this help to geographically locate the origin of archaic PIE?

The Hamito-Semitic substratum in insular Celtic is still under debate. But if accepted, I think it's considered as a pre-IE substratum (Neolithic?) more than a post-PIE input.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

I don't know what they would reveal, but I find it odd that neither the Lazaridis study or apparently the upcoming one from Reich has any samples from there. Why not?
"Anywhere but Mycenae" apparently.

Well do they actually have samples from those regions that they obtained and have permission to analyze? So it might not be odd, just that the Greek Museums/Archeologist who have those ancient samples (assuming they exist) have not agreed to let them be analyzed by anyone yet. For example, The Biomuse project, which has Greek Academics (Democritus University in Thrace) involved in the project which has samples from Mesolithic period in Greece to Byzantine period is working with German researchers from the University of Mainz , although I don't think any from Mycenae in the period you want. Did Reich's teams have access to these samples or is the Max Plank group going to be able to analyze them or maybe the Greek academics are going to do the studies themselves.

The Clemente et al 2021 paper published in Cell was done by members of the team putting together the Biomuse project.

 

[MOESAN]

As I remembered, the reason of Reich’s claim that yamna people as a caucasus cline was speaking PIE is not only gene flow but also cultural flow from caucasus to pontic steppe.
Moreover I think he has a full confidence that yamna people migrated to south asia.
Archaeologically this migration has lots of big hurdles.
For example sintashta cannot have an origin in CWC and andronovo did not reach south asia. As for me, seima turbino is another big hurdle. Until 1,700bc, ST had bombarded east Europe like mongol. After that, chariot people trampled whole Europe with Apa sword of snake inscription (looks like vajra). Problem is the archaeological PIE culture of the chariot people has something to do with ST, not sintashta.

Thanks for sharings.
The question is that Seima-Turbino (with some cultural traits of possible South-Caspian origins, at first) would have influenced Europe around 1000/1300 years later than the massive steppic DNA noticed in Europe. If IE, it was not the first imput, or we're obliged to search among Finno-Ugrians or Turks to explicate the first steppic DNA input? I recall S-T has been first associated with Finno-Ugrians, BTW? even if it seems it's strongly dubious for some today scholars.

 

[Angela]

I don't know what they would reveal, but I find it odd that neither the Lazaridis study or apparently the upcoming one from Reich has any samples from there. Why not?
"Anywhere but Mycenae" apparently.

Palermo, I think you knew the answer, yes?

Mycenae is full of R1a men with blonde hair and blue eyes! How could you doubt it.

The fact that samples from that one location have not yet been posted is obviously a conspiracy by undesirable Near Easterners and Southern Europeans.

Trust me, Phil, if that's what it turns out to be I'll acknowledge it immediately.

I think, however, that rather than a conspiracy involving not just the Reich Lab but everyone else in the population genetics academic community, it is either a function of the fact that the samples are low coverage and/or contaminated through much prior handling, or they have been sitting on them waiting to put them in the proper paper.

 

[Philjames100]

Palermo, I think you knew the answer, yes?

Mycenae is full of R1a men with blonde hair and blue eyes! How could you doubt it.

The fact that samples from that one location have not yet been posted is obviously a conspiracy by undesirable Near Easterners and Southern Europeans.

Trust me, Phil, if that's what it turns out to be I'll acknowledge it immediately.

I think, however, that rather than a conspiracy involving not just the Reich Lab but everyone else in the population genetics academic community, it is either a function of the fact that the samples are low coverage and/or contaminated through much prior handling, or they have been sitting on them waiting to put them in the proper paper.

Well it's a bit like doing the archaeology of Mycenaean Greece without ever digging up Mycenae. The graves there are full of fascinating artefacts which have inspired lots of theories and speculations about the Mycenaeans. Knowing the DNA of the people buried there would be amazing. Instead we get random samples from here and there.