David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

Philjames100 said:
It indicates there was a significant steppe influx into Greece, contrary to your statement of 'negligible steppe'.
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And a new paper in its abstract, still not out yet, spoke specifically about Central-Eastern European ancestral components in migrants which reached the Aegean in the LBA, in the Pre-Mycenaean period. Besides, it doesn't matter if a people was mixed, if they had steppe ancestry and cultural influences, we can see a possible link to the steppe and IE language from the steppe. That's all needed, especially since, beside Anatolian, there is no other language for which this haven't been proven as of yet.
And Anatolian comes from a very early wave of migrants in any case, which might have mixed multiple times on the way and were staying in Anatolia for 1.000 years and more before the first attestatation of their language. Just think about early Magyars and later ones. Just 200 years after, they were closer to Germans, Czechs and Croats than to "their linguistic ancestors".
 
Palermo Trapani said:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492

Some quotes from the paper

"Genetically, ancient steppe populations have been described as a combination of Eastern and Caucasus hunter-gatherer/Iran Neolithic (EHG and CHG/IN) ancestries (4). However, the analysis of aDNA from Southern East Europe has identified the existence of additional contributions ultimately from the Caucasus (8, 9) and suggests a more complex ancient ancestry
composition for Europeans"

Regarding the North having more EHG and South CHG and some additional Iran Neolithic, they state:


"These observations suggest the existence of different secondary source contributions to the two edges of the peninsula, with the north affected more by EHG-related populations and the south by CHG-related groups. IN ancestry was detected in Europe only in Southern Italy."
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Iran_N only in southern Italy in Europe? LOL. All Italians have, in varying percentages, some Iran_N.

Palermo Trapani said:
Another relevant quote (and one supporting your model and what Angela has stated)

"The analysis of both modern and ancient data suggests that in Italian populations, ancestries related to CHG and EHG derive from at least two sources. One is the well-characterized steppe (SBA) signature associated with nomadic groups from the PonticCaspian steppes. This component reached Italy from mainlandEurope at least as long ago as the Bronze Age, as suggested by its presence in Bell Beaker samples from North Italy (data file S4). The other contribution is ultimately associated with CHG ancestry, as previously suggested (21), and predominantly affected Southern Italy, where it represents a substantial component of the ancestry profile of local modern populations. Although the details of the origins of this signature are still uncharacterized, it may have been present as early as the Bronze Age in Southern Italy"
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The extra CHG/Iran_N of modern Italians has nothing to do with the introduction of Steppe. They are completely different movements and happened separately.

Palermo Trapani said:
So the Raveane et al 2019 paper was a year before Fernandes et al 2020 published their paper which documented Steppe IE ancestry in Sicily dating to 2200 BC and in those Bronze Age Sicilian samples, Yamnaya was the best source to capture Steppe migration and the likely spread of IE languages into Sicily. I think their is evidence supporting that the Elymians likely spoke an early IE language, obviously the Sicels spoke one. I would suspect the Sicani did as well.

So the conjecture by Raveane et al 2019 that a heavy CHG population was in Southern Italy by the Bronze Age is supported by the evidence that Yamnaya related population, with significant CHG/Iran Neolithic ancestry was in Sicily and thus likely also in Southern Italy given Figure 2 shows a similar admixture in Sicily and Southern Italy regarding EHG+CHG+Iran_Neo ancestry.
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Even in the case of I8561, the first individual found to have Steppe ancestry in Italy, the origins seem to be more Beaker rather than Yamnaya.

Target: ITA_Sicily_EBA_I8561___BC_2262
Distance: 0.0169% / 0.01692837 | R3P
44.8 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA_I2364___BC_2270
32.7 Iberia_Southeast_CA_I8198___BC_2700
22.5 Bell_Beaker_POL_pcw280___BC_2300
 
johen said:
missed one thing, Tocharian speaker migration to china bronze:
Deus or Ancient Greek Zeus > ancient chinese Tees > modern chinese Di( lord, son of sky or heaven)
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sintashta culture also to china

"soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the shang rulers came from the west, as well as the ceremonial significance of the the chariot itself. the finds of sintashta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber(exaclty in china) as well as the conventionalized rock carvings, confirm this thesis."

 
johen said:
sintashta culture also to china

"soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the shang rulers came from the west, as well as the ceremonial significance of the the chariot itself. the finds of sintashta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber(exaclty in china) as well as the conventionalized rock carvings, confirm this thesis."
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iirc the metal influence on Shang China is more related to Okunevo and Seima-Turbino, so maybe a western Sintashta-related influence through these cultures rather than directly.
 
Riverman said:
And a new paper in its abstract, still not out yet, spoke specifically about Central-Eastern European ancestral components in migrants which reached the Aegean in the LBA
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Maybe Dorian Greeks, with more steppe-related ancestry than the Mycenaean population? Also maybe non-Greeks who assimilated following invasions at the end of the Bronze Age.
 
Er Monnezza said:
Iran_N only in southern Italy in Europe? LOL. All Italians have, in varying percentages, some Iran_N.



The extra CHG/Iran_N of modern Italians has nothing to do with the introduction of Steppe. They are completely different movements and happened separately.



Even in the case of I8561, the first individual found to have Steppe ancestry in Italy, the origins seem to be more Beaker rather than Yamnaya.

Target: ITA_Sicily_EBA_I8561___BC_2262
Distance: 0.0169% / 0.01692837 | R3P
44.8 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA_I2364___BC_2270
32.7 Iberia_Southeast_CA_I8198___BC_2700
22.5 Bell_Beaker_POL_pcw280___BC_2300
Click to expand...

Yes, there is a section n the paper that talks of extra Iran_Neo/CHG ancestry that is not from Steppe. I should have quoted that part of the paper. It is in the text because I remember reading it. The paper's results are what they are and yes, I think the more recent paper by Raveane et al 2022 I think it is does document a Iran_Neo/CHG admixture in all of Italy. As for the Bell Beaker in that Sicily EBA I8561, I think the Fernandes et al 2020 paper said the admixture in all the Sicilian Samples is maximized with Yamanaya. I don't have the paper in front of me as I am in my office at work now (was home earlier when I wrote it). So the I8561 Sample may favor Bell Beaker over Yamnaya as there was Bell Beaker culture in Sicily during the Bronze Age, although if I remember correctly, the Bell Beaker Sicilian sample that was published was less Steppe admixed than the Bronze Age Sicilians in the Fernandes et al 2020 paper.

When I get home I am going to run Jovialis K8 Dodecad Model and use Yamanaya, Corded Ware and those 2 Bell Beaker samples you are using in post #1123 to see which one gives the best overall fit. It may be that all 3 proxies for Steppe (Yamnaya, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker) are good models. I think with my own coordinates and the Dodecad K12 from the academic samples for Sicily and Southern Italy there are enough to do that type of analysis and also do it for the Bronze Age Sicilian samples from Fernandes et al 2020 and the published Sicilian Bell Beaker.

So nothing wrong with your model, it may be that Sicily EBA I8561 is modeled better with Bell Beaker vs Yamanaya. The Elymians in NW Sicily are now though, based on scholarly consensus to have come into Palermo and Trapani provinces (pardon the pun) from NW Italy (modern Liguria) and what use to be Italy (French Riviera) so maybe another impulse into Sicily with Steppe (Bell Beaker type) could be being picked up in that sample.

Just curious, I assume you are using G25, what is the model fit replacing Bell Beaker with Yamnaya or even Corded Ware?
 
Philjames100 said:
It indicates there was a significant steppe influx into Greece, contrary to your statement of 'negligible steppe'.
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What? Lol! I never said that there was an negligible percentage of steppe in the Mycenaeans. Mycenaeans had an low steppe percentage, but it was not definitely negligible. I was referring to Anatolia when I said negligible not to Greece.
 
Just_a_Common_Guy said:
I wasn't clear, I apologize: number 7 (seven).
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do you have a source for the possible Afro-Asiatic origin of 'seven' in Indo-European?

Regarding the supposed Afro-Asiatic substrate in Insular Celtic ... wouldn't that also be apparent in other Indo-European languages if it came from the origin of those languages? Some people have suggested a Neolithic substrate in western Europe, which makes sense except that the Bell Beakers completely replaced the Neolithic population of the British Isles. So it seems that if there is an Afro-Asiatic substrate or significant element in the Insular Celtic languages, that might have actually come from the Bell Beakers rather than the Neolithic population of Britain and Ireland.
 
Just_a_Common_Guy said:
Yes.

English: seven.
Russian: sem'.
Hindi: saat.
Arabic: saba.
Hebrew: sheba.
amharic: sebati.
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Yeah, the Indo European 'Seven' in Semitic is interesting because most IE languages have the numbers 7,8,9 as cognates. As I mentioned Semitic also has the IE for father, Baba, which is what you get when replacing p with b from 'papa'. Semitic languages dont have p, and replace it with b, ie bebsi, bakistani etc.

Given that 7 and father are common across IE there is definitely a strong link here with Semitic and IE. My theory is that Semitic has had lots of waves of IE influence but also may have been an IE language long ago but then drifted and changed after losing contact with the main body or IE speakers.
 
Just_a_Common_Guy said:
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/e...ern-arc-a-bridge-between-west-asia-and-europe

quote:
"At least two streams of migration transmitted Caucasus and Anatolian/LEVANTINE ancestry northward, contributing to Yamnaya steppe pastoralists"

Does this explain the "seven" of apparent Semitic origin and the question of a Hamito-Semitic substratum in insular Celtic? It is possible?
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Some 18th-century historians suggested based on their evidence that there were Phoenician-Celtic ties. It's believed that the Phoenicians/ Punic, who lived in Iberia/Spain, colonized a certain part of the British Isles. So, any allegedly Afro-Asiatic influence on the Celtic language is likely based on the interaction between the Phoenicians and the Celtics. It should be noted that there’s no positive evidence that the Phoenicians did trade tin in Britain. Hence, this conclusion by these 18th- century historians can’t be disproven, nor can it be proved at this point.



In the 18th century, historians discovered exciting proof of Phoenician-Celtic ties. An ancient Roman dramatist, Titus Maccius Plautus (died 184 B.C.) wrote a play, the Penulus, in which he placed then-current Phoenician into the speech of one of his characters. In the 18th century, linguists noticed the great similarity between that Phoenician and the early Irish Celtic language. In the adjacent box is a sample given by historian Thomas Moore's, History of Ireland, showing the connection between these languages. Leading 18th and 19th century scholars, such as Gen. Charles Vallancey, Lord Rosse, and Sir William Betham, also wrote on this subject. Vallancey, for instance, speaks of, "The great affinity found in many words, nay whole lines and sentences of this speech, between the Punic [Phoenician] and the Irish." George Rawlinson, Phoenicia, p. 327
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https://phoenicia.org/Phoenician-Celtic-connections.html


https://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html


Needless to say, an origin for a number of British and Irish names in these languages is an intriguing possibility, and such a linguistic hypothesis does, in fact, have a potential historical context too. A degree of direct contact between the ancient Punic world and pre-Roman Britain has, after all, often been argued for since the sixteenth century on the basis of a small number of Classical sources that seem to point in this direction, and in recent years this notion has gained a degree of additional support from a variety of numismatic, isotopic, and archaeological evidence, as has been discussed in previous posts.(2)

With regard to the names themselves, several points can be made by way of a brief introduction. First and foremost, it is worth observing that they are all either coastal or island names, something that obviously accords well with the idea of them having Phoenician/Punic origins, given that any contacts between pre-Roman Britain and the Punic world of southern Iberia and North Africa are likely to have been primarily maritime in nature. Likewise, the suggested Proto-Semitic/Punic roots identified by Coates and others as potentially underlying these British and Irish coastal/island names are—importantly—plausible in terms of their lexical content too, referring to islands, the coast, cliffs/rocks, plants and animals, relative positions and/or compass points, culturally significant metals, and divine words or names.(3) In other words, the basic characteristics of the group as a whole, in terms of not only their general difficulty within the overall corpus of British names, but also their shared geographic characteristics and the range of meanings that they would possess, is credible and might inspire a degree of confidence.
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https://www.caitlingreen.org/2016/12/punic-names-britain.html
 
Vallicanus said:
This is worthy of Apricity.:LOL:
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I think a lot of them got tired of playing there. Maybe it's too stupid even for them, so they're invading us.

A lot of them need a big dose of IGNORE.
 
eurasiadna said:
Yeah, the Indo European 'Seven' in Semitic is interesting because most IE languages have the numbers 7,8,9 as cognates. As I mentioned Semitic also has the IE for father, Baba, which is what you get when replacing p with b from 'papa'. Semitic languages dont have p, and replace it with b, ie bebsi, bakistani etc.

Given that 7 and father are common across IE there is definitely a strong link here with Semitic and IE. My theory is that Semitic has had lots of waves of IE influence but also may have been an IE language long ago but then drifted and changed after losing contact with the main body or IE speakers.
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You should know that Semitic is part of Afro-Asiatic, right? These two languages are fundamentally on the opposite edge by all means, flora, fauna, linguistic anthropology etc, etc.
 
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