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Thread: How much Roman Italian DNA do Iberians have?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luso View Post
    I have another thread on this site I made recently titled: "Western Iberian's North African is 100% from Roman era?"
    This makes a lot of sense since it's weird that a bunch of ethnic Europeans will let a group of north africans just take over the country, people only like to be ruled by those of their ethnicity.

    There's a lot of haplogroup E in medieval remains, and barely I or R(not even that much J indeed).
    Even though females seem to have been preserved.

  2. #27
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    What the heck are you talking about? I pointed out upthread the date for the samples.

    Plus, have you just wiped out of your mind the invasion and subjugation of Iberia by the Moors, as well as by Levantines, a subjugation which in some areas endured for 700 years? They may not have wanted "a group of north africans" to take over their country, but it happened anyway. That's on you people, not the Romans.

    Try to read scientific papers, even if it's difficult, and try to get a grip. The past is what it is; refusing to acknowledge it just makes people look ridiculous.


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  3. #28
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm saying that it's difficult for a people to just conquer a country as if they were just going for a walk.

    It's likely that there were already inmigrants in southern Spain, as it is the case with the city of Rome, if you remember the haplogroups of the Imperial era samples...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Depends on whose map of U-152 you use.





    According to MTA, I have Roman-Iberian ancient matches in Barcelona area in the merchant port, near Valencia in a villa, and in a villa in southern Portugal.

    Of course, even if you were limiting your analysis to the Republican area and thus to Italics, you'd have to add other haplogroups. Imperial area you'd have to add othes.

    It's been examined by scholars already.

    Sotty I'm late on this thread, but let's look at a more recent map of Maciamo Eupedia


  5. #30
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Modelizations and Calculations can change results of analyses (it's enough reading the surveys and threads here and elsewhere.
    The proximity of a lot of Iberia regions with Northern Italy is the result of diverse evolutions and colonisations with diverse depths in time: so ancient basic admixtures and recent more drifted ones, not well disentangled in unique 2 diensions PCA's.
    In details, I think Catalunya has been an entry door for northern "Italian" (geo) DNA before Roman Empire times, with seemingly some links with Remedello and Rhône culture at Eneolithic, if I remember well.
    ATW, "Roman" males (and some females) in Iberia and elsewhere in the Empire were often enough, in fact, nonRoman people under Roman rule. Surely the genuine input has not been very level in every part of Iberia, but as a whole I think this Roman input has not been very higher than some 20% and here I'm generous. Just my todate religion.
    Concerning R1b S28/L152 in SW Iberia, I wonder if a part of it could not have been send there by Belgae tribes?

  6. #31
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sotty I'm late on this thread, but let's look at a more recent map of Maciamo Eupedia

    I think this might be helpful.

  7. #32
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I believe the impact was nearly to none, Modern iberians are pretty much Celt + Native Iberian and the rest made of Germanic and MENA, there very few cities with roman occupation, the domination was cultural, not genetic, its prty much like finnish ppl, who are like 5% Siberian but speak a Uralic language, in my opnion (Based on g25 samples and IllustrativeDNA) a avr Iberian is +/- 45% Celt 35% Pre-Celt Iberian 15% MENA (Mostly NA and Levantine) and the rest is Germanic and Roman.
    In mostly g25 i dont even score Italian, in IllustrativeDNA my european side is only Iberian, C. Celt and a little of Sarmatian (Misread PIE maybe?) and my fit generally is ~1, i barely see any Iberian scoring real Italian, when someone score roman or etruscan in 99% of the case its just misread Iberian/Tartesso\Lusitan bcs they are similar in genetic terms, and some Iberians just score N. Italian bcs they are just similar components, The major diference of N. Italians and Iberians are just bcs N. italians have more Anatolia\Levantine like dna and Iberians have more N. African like, if u are a iberian-descendant but more levantine shifted\Admixed (Like me) u prob will score a lot of N. Italian, its just Misread.
    IllustrativeDna:

    41.2% West African
    20.6% Iberian
    16.2% C. Celt
    9.6% Phoenican
    3.0% Egyptian
    3.0% Bantu
    3.0% S. American
    1.6% NW African
    1.0% Pygmy
    0.8% Khoisan



    Fit: 1.095
    I just take off Zagrosian\Sogdian\Sarmatian samples bcs my CHG (Part of my yamnaya ancestry) was begin misread, and i dont have any Iranian related ancestry and looks like Jews dont score this too so this dont rly makes sense and the distance are prty much the same (Go from 1.078 to 1.095) so i guess was just misread CHG and ANE

  8. #33
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    New studies confirm the emigration of christian southerniberians to free-muslim Kingdom of northwestern Iberia (Gallaecia) in IX century: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...9467683778.htm 50% of people buried in Santiago de Compostela (Saint Jacques in Galicia) between IXc. and XIIc. were not native, two periods, one during IXc. heavy in southerniberians and another period until XIIc. heavy in people from other places in Northern Iberia, Italy, Southern France and England.

    These southerniberians, as it was confirmed by genetic analysis, were taking berber genetics all over the time of Roman Empire, so they were the people who brought this kind of genetics to Northwestern Iberia. The different studies are making very much easier the puzzle of this kind of genetics in Western Iberia.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Ιωάννης Γαβριήλ's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro089 View Post
    I believe the impact was nearly to none, Modern iberians are pretty much Celt + Native Iberian and the rest made of Germanic and MENA, there very few cities with roman occupation, the domination was cultural, not genetic, its prty much like finnish ppl, who are like 5% Siberian but speak a Uralic language, in my opnion (Based on g25 samples and IllustrativeDNA) a avr Iberian is +/- 45% Celt 35% Pre-Celt Iberian 15% MENA (Mostly NA and Levantine) and the rest is Germanic and Roman.
    In mostly g25 i dont even score Italian, in IllustrativeDNA my european side is only Iberian, C. Celt and a little of Sarmatian (Misread PIE maybe?) and my fit generally is ~1, i barely see any Iberian scoring real Italian, when someone score roman or etruscan in 99% of the case its just misread Iberian/Tartesso\Lusitan bcs they are similar in genetic terms, and some Iberians just score N. Italian bcs they are just similar components, The major diference of N. Italians and Iberians are just bcs N. italians have more Anatolia\Levantine like dna and Iberians have more N. African like, if u are a iberian-descendant but more levantine shifted\Admixed (Like me) u prob will score a lot of N. Italian, its just Misread.
    IllustrativeDna:

    41.2% West African
    20.6% Iberian
    16.2% C. Celt
    9.6% Phoenican
    3.0% Egyptian
    3.0% Bantu
    3.0% S. American
    1.6% NW African
    1.0% Pygmy
    0.8% Khoisan



    Fit: 1.095
    I just take off Zagrosian\Sogdian\Sarmatian samples bcs my CHG (Part of my yamnaya ancestry) was begin misread, and i dont have any Iranian related ancestry and looks like Jews dont score this too so this dont rly makes sense and the distance are prty much the same (Go from 1.078 to 1.095) so i guess was just misread CHG and ANE
    Hi, @Pietro089 ! I, just like you, am SSA + Euro with minor amerindian and my results are a little different from yours:


    29.6% West African
    26.2% C. Celt
    16.0% Bantu
    10.6% Sardinian
    6.4% Phoenician
    4.2% Iberian
    3.0% South Amerindian
    2.2% Italic and Etruscan
    1.6% Pygmy
    0.2% Caucasian


    Distance: 0.871

    I score a lot of Sardinian with some Italic and Etruscan, wich could be from The Romans, although, there's also the possibility of a later italian mixture in my family.

    I am aware that Sardinians plot over EEF, so I took it off and these are the results:


    28.0% West African
    17.2% Bantu
    17.0% C. Celt
    16.8% Iberian
    8.4% Phoenician
    7.8% Italic and Etruscan
    3.0% South Amerindian
    1.8% Pygmy


    Distance: 0.893

    Also, the absense of North Africa is interesting, because I didn't take it off

    PS:

    These are the results when I take Phoenician and Egyptian out:

    29.6% West African
    16.8% Iberian
    16.0% Bantu
    15.8% C. Celtic
    11.6% Imperial Roman
    5.8% Italic and Etruscan
    2.8% South Amerindian
    1.6% Pygmy

    Distance: 1.029

    The distance is still closer than yours

    Note that I still didn't take the Norwthwest African out and it still didn't show up
    Last edited by Ιωάννης Γαβριήλ; 24-10-22 at 06:41.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Luso's Avatar
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    One model has me at:

    [1] "distance%=1.7256"
    Luso
    West_Iberia_IA,54.4
    Roman_Colonial,17.6
    Berber_EMA,10.8
    Germanic,10.6
    Scotland_EIA,6.6


    My mom is who has a lot of roman influence is looks like getting more than avg:

    [1] "distance%=1.788"
    Luso_mom
    West_Iberia_IA,45
    Roman_Colonial,27.4
    Scotland_EIA,11
    Berber_EMA,9.4
    Germanic,7.2

    and my dad...

    [1] "distance%=0.9733"
    Luso_dad
    West_Iberia_IA,52.6
    Roman_Colonial,14
    Berber_EMA,12.6
    Germanic,11.4
    Scotland_EIA,9.4

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luso View Post
    One model has me at:

    [1] "distance%=1.7256"
    Luso
    West_Iberia_IA,54.4
    Roman_Colonial,17.6
    Berber_EMA,10.8
    Germanic,10.6
    Scotland_EIA,6.6


    My mom is who has a lot of roman influence is looks like getting more than avg:

    [1] "distance%=1.788"
    Luso_mom
    West_Iberia_IA,45
    Roman_Colonial,27.4
    Scotland_EIA,11
    Berber_EMA,9.4
    Germanic,7.2

    and my dad...

    [1] "distance%=0.9733"
    Luso_dad
    West_Iberia_IA,52.6
    Roman_Colonial,14
    Berber_EMA,12.6
    Germanic,11.4
    Scotland_EIA,9.4

    What model are you using? where can I find it?

  12. #37
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    What model are you using? where can I find it?
    It's a model from anthrogenica by the user Ruderico. Feel free to ask him for your results i'm sure he'd do it for you as you're iberian.

  13. #38
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Very cool! What u get when u take off Sardinian, Etruscan and Latin? Sry for taking so much time for asnwer

  14. #39
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Problem for Mr. Ruderico's calculator is that IBD analysis doesn't find it.

  15. #40
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    IllustrativeDNA gives me these results when I select all the old samples.

    Fit:
    0.969 (Very Good)
    Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC) 33.6%


    Insular Celtic (210 BC–1000 AD) 25.4%


    Iberian (730–100 BC) 20.6%


    Northwest African (580-1160 AD) 8.8%


    Sardinian (1640 BC–990 AD) 5.0%


    Bantu 3.8%


    Pacific Islander (570–980 AD) 1.0%


    Pygmy 1.0%



    Southeast Asian (1100 BC–400 AD) 0.4%


    South Amerindian (1660 BC–1500 AD) 0.4%


  16. #41
    Regular Member Ιωάννης Γαβριήλ's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    These are my results with all the ancient samples:

    Distance: 0.863 (Very Good)

    West African 29.6%



    Continental Celtic (400 BC–200 AD) 27.4%



    Bantu 16.0%



    Sardinian (1640 BC–990 AD) 10.8%



    Phoenician (1000–330 BC) 6.4%



    Iberian (730–100 BC) 4.4%



    South Amerindian (1660 BC–1500 AD) 2.8%



    Pygmy 1.4%



    Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC) 0.6%



    Caucasian (3700–1700 BC) 0.4%



    Australian (300–600 AD) 0.2%


    Here're a few things to point out: all the ancient samples are selected and still no North African DNA, the Phoenician is expressive, which combined with the Iberian, indicates a connection to southern/eastern Iberia, but all of that Celtic (second biggest), points to western Iberia, the Sardinian and (very minor) Italic might indicate a Roman connection, or maybe, a Cathagenian Empire - related Sardinian migration ancestry? (I doubt it, because the sample I match is from the EMA, not Punic Sardinian) Finally, the Australian, Probably from the South Amerindian (3.0% without any oceanian sample selected), indicates a connection between South America and Oceania as we can also see in your results.

    It's interesting to notice that if we add up all the western eurasian percentages (the ones related to my european ancestry) 27.4+10.8+6.4+4.4+0.6+0.4, they add up to exactly 50%.



    These are the results when I take the Sardinian out:

    Distance: 0.893 (Very Good)

    West African 27.0%



    Bantu 18.4%



    Continental Celtic (400 BC–200 AD) 18.2%



    Iberian (730–100 BC) 15.4%



    Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC) 8.2%



    Phoenician (1000–330 BC) 8.2%



    South Amerindian (1660 BC–1500 AD) 2.8%



    Pygmy 1.6%



    Pacific Islander (570–980 AD) 0.2%



    Personally, I think these are better results when compared to the ones with Sardinian, although, a little bit more distant (0.03 more), they make much more sense to me, since, not only the Iberian and Phoenician are now even more expressive, but the Celtic is less so, showing, a DNA much more inclinded to southern/central Portugal. When we analize the places where the Romans colonized, in this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think this might be helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    and this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sotty I'm late on this thread, but let's look at a more recent map of Maciamo Eupedia
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post



    with the increased amount of Italic and Etruscan DNA, It's clear that we see a pattern here, it points my ancestry to southern Portugal, which makes perfect with my haplogroup, that's a branch of the one above.

    Also, the Oceanian changed, from Australian to Pacific Islander, which makes even more sense, the only thing I find intriguing is the lack of North African, so common in places like Iberia


    PS: The western eurasian percentages (the ones related to my european ancestry), 18.2+15.4+8.2+8.2, still add up to exactly 50%.
    Last edited by Ιωάννης Γαβριήλ; 15-11-22 at 23:38.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Excluding Sardinians:

    Fit: 0.971 (Very Good)

    Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC) 39.0%

    Etruscan – TAQ010 : 19.8%
    Etruscan – PRZ001 : 8.0%
    Latin – RMPR1016 : 6.6%
    Etruscan – TAQ001 : 4.6%

    Iberian (730–100 BC) 23.4%
    Iberian – I3327 : 8.4%
    Iberian – I3320 : 8.0%
    Iberian – I3324 : 7.0%

    Insular Celtic (210 BC–1000 AD) 22.4%
    Insular Celt – I0156 : 22.4%

    Northwest African (580–1160 AD) 8.2%
    Guanche – gun002 : 8.2%

    Bantu 4.0%
    Luhya (Kenya) : 2.4%
    Tswa : 1.6%

    Pacific Islander (570–980 AD) 1.0%
    Pacific Islander (570–980 AD) – FUT002 : 1.0%

    Pygmy 1.0%
    Mbuti : 0.6%
    Baka : 0.4%

    Southeast Asian (1100 BC–400 AD) 0.6%
    Dong Son culture – Vt781 : 0.6%

    Hellenic (1420–200 BC) 0.2%
    Greek (Mycenaean) – I9033 : 0.2%

    South Amerindian (1660 BC–1500 AD) 0.2%
    South Amerindian (1660 BC–1500 AD) (Rio Uncallane) – IL3 : 0.2%


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