Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages

Moja said:
Lurs still wear the same ancient Allurian white felt hat.
%25DA%25A9%25D9%2584%25D8%25A7%25D9%2587%2B%25D9%2586%25D9%2585%25D8%25AF%25DB%258C%2B666.png
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this research :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399854/

found 9.8% 5/50 e-m78(x v22, v12, v13) in Lurs
 
This thread is not about Lurs or Luristan, which has nothing to do with Illyria. No serious scholar has made any kind of analogy between these two words. Not that i am aware of.
 
Hawk said:
This thread is not about Lurs or Luristan, which has nothing to do with Illyria. No serious scholar has made any kind of analogy between these two words. Not that i am aware of.
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agree
still interesting that they have significant e-m78 %
back to topic
from the map td120 shared and posted above(y)
we can see the medieval samples from albania and north macedonia
are from :bitola and kukes and kolonje :unsure:
 
Hawk said:
This thread is not about Lurs or Luristan, which has nothing to do with Illyria. No serious scholar has made any kind of analogy between these two words. Not that i am aware of.
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This thread is about "Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages". I talk about it: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml this section: J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans

Lurs are also an Indo-European people and have this Y-DNA haplogroup which exists in Balkan too.
 
Moja said:
This thread is about "Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages". I talk about it: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml this section: J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans
Lurs are also an Indo-European people and have this Y-DNA haplogroup which exists in Balkan too.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have a suspicion you're not from India. I hope 1 of the moderators can check your IP address properly. Too many sick fellow Balkanites have made us paranoid when we hear such ridiculous theories.
 
enter_tain said:
Picks weird samples to "disprove" theories. Used some random Czech sample to model Slavic ancestry in Albanians and ignores Balkan Slavs.

When someone else pointed this out, he kept crying about it.
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Have you read the discussion? Some people kept asking for a new Slavic proxy because they couldn't believe that Albanians don't have 20-30% Slavic admixture. Yet every time the Slavic proxy was changed, the results didn't change: Albanians have very low Slavic admixture. The model every time was just fine. The problem lies in some people who no matter what happens really can't accept that Albanians don't have high Slavic admixture. This doesn't make models fake or sources problematic. It just shows that the opinions of some people aren't driven by a genuine interest but by the desire to prove a point. Sadly for them, no matter what, they can't prove it so they just have to deal with it.

Target: Albanian_new
Distance: 0.9023% / 0.00902322
90.2 RomanBalkans
9.8 HUN_Av2_Szolad

Target: Albanian_new
Distance: 1.1542% / 0.01154200
87.0 RomanBalkans
13.0 Slavic

Target: Albanian_new
Distance: 0.8538% / 0.00853847
87.4 RomanBalkans
12.6 Slavic (Krakauer_Berg/CZE_Early_Slav)

Target: Albanian_new
Distance: 0.9304% / 0.00930354
93.2 RomanBalkans
6.8 RUS_Ingria_IA
 
Dushman said:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have a suspicion you're not from India. I hope 1 of the moderators can check your IP address properly. Too many sick fellow Balkanites have made us paranoid when we hear such ridiculous theories.
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Your words sound racist to me, the origin of Indo-Europeans in Iran is not a ridiculous theory, as you see David Reich, Johannes Krause and several other scholars have talked about it.
 
Moja said:
The oldest sample of J2b has been found in Luristan (Elluria/Alluria in the ancient Akkadian sources) in the west of Iran. Illyria is from Ancient Greek Ἰλλυρία (Illuría).
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J2b-L283 has never been found in Neolithic Iran. Those are different haplogroups. Before making such bizarre claims perhaps learn the correct nomenclature of the haplogroups you are trying to lump together. The vast majority of Proto-Illyrian samples from the East and West Adriatic are J2b-L283 the same picture continues in the Iron Age https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

Also, stop derailing this thread with off topic non sense.
 
Hawk said:
In one leak a screenshot was taken in a upcoming Y-DNA from Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze, Iron Age, Roman and Medieval times from Balkans.

D0RC6ri.png



Mesolithic Balkans was dominated by I2a and R1b .

Neolithic by G2a

Bronze Age by R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and J2a.

Once again, E-V13 appearance just as stated by Viminacium authors appears in Bronze to Iron Age transition, notice how the percentages increases during 0-500, very probably due to sampling bias of cremation/inhumation, when they adopted Christianity the burial rite changed to inhumation. So, i would say that the 0-500 column represent much better the Iron Age rather than the Iron Age column itself. E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.
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Their graph suggests J2b-L283 to be bigger than R1b-Z2103 in the Bronze Age. They probably have quite some East Adriatic Bronze Age samples tested. The biggest question is if Cetina are amongst those or these are just Posusje samples again.
 
mount123 said:
Their graph suggests J2b-L283 to be bigger than R1b-Z2103 in the Bronze Age. They probably have quite some East Adriatic Bronze Age samples tested. The biggest question is if Cetina are amongst those or these are just Posusje samples again.
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I don't know, let's see when they publish, perhaps old samples are included as well.

I also see interesting the appearance of R1b-L2 in Bronze Age and Iron Age.
 
Hawk said:
I don't know, let's see when they publish, perhaps old samples are included as well.

I also see interesting the appearance of R1b-L2 in Bronze Age and Iron Age.
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Well, it will certainly be interesting what the ratio of EBA and MBA samples will be. I have actually thought about your older and recent comment on possible J2b-L283 presence in EBA Belotic Bela Crkva and given that a good portion seems to come from Serbia, the possibility of getting results of samples from that site is not too low. Funny thing is Bruzmi repetitively claimed it to yield the main bulk of E1b-V13 and it being the expansion area, which given the graph the authors have provided, will be strongly refuted (if samples from mentioned site are included).

Regarding R1b-L2, those are probably from TC related sites, my bet would be bordering areas as we have seen typical TC auDNA in one R1b-L2 from the northern area. Pannonia or elsewhere would also not be surprising.

I find it quite telling that whilst the paper won't answer the geographic BA starting point of E1b-V13 regarding its transitional Iron Age migration, it certainly tells us where it won't be, and it really is not surprising. Thinking of all of those who have predicted this a long time ago.
 
Hawk said:
I don't know, let's see when they publish, perhaps old samples are included as well.

I also see interesting the appearance of R1b-L2 in Bronze Age and Iron Age.
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R-L2 is there and spread already with the Tumulus culture. You can see it coming in before E-V13 - or, alternatively, at the same time, but with a different burial rite (inhumation vs. cremation).

And yes, they use old samples for this statistic. Remind you, they have about 200 new samples, of which about 100 are from Viminacium. So what remains is about 100 other new samples. What this also means is that they have about 10-12 E-V13 from what they described as Iron Age. Question is whether these being scattered all around, or concentrated at just a few or even just one site.

I really hope they have sampled some Basarabi inhumation burials. Leaving out Basarabi, as a Serbian centered project, would be truly strange.

That they use old data means for some haplogroups we will get less new samples than for E-V13, if you think about the many already published J-L283 Iron Age samples. The trend for E-V13 to rise in the Central and East of the Balkans, contrary to the West, being already apparent.

Edit: The PCA tells the story, there won't be Basarabi samples in all likelihood, because otherwise there would be something like "Serbian Iron Age". Too bad.
 
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Riverman said:
Edit: The PCA tells the story, there won't be Basarabi samples in all likelihood, because otherwise there would be something like "Serbian Iron Age". Too bad.
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Not necessarily, or I might be wrong too, but that would mean that all Bronze Age J2b-L283 samples would be from Serbia (Mokrin?, Belotic Bela Crkva?) which I find unlikely since Serbian users who have watched the presentation said there will be Bronze Age samples from Croatia and other places too. The same case could and probably will be for Serbia, meaning also samples from the Iron Age.

Who knows though. Either way, part of the problem of not getting Basarabi samples till today is because of certain state institutions, hence why we still don't have a single Basarabi sample from Romania or other places from that former archeological sphere.
 
D0RC6ri.png



when i look at the 500-1500 AD period it pretty clear that r1a-z283 and i2-L261
were mainly brought by the slavic migration ;)

p.s
i hope there will be some e-m123 cases (under the white other category)
from 0-500 Ad and maybe from 500-1500AD
if they will appear maybe pribislav could have a look at them later
 
Hawk said:
Dardapara,

Per Joachim Matzinger (Der Illyrer, 2021 book), Illyrian and Albanian belong to two different branches within Indo-European language family. So, if J2b2-L283 is Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian-related then Proto-Albanoids had different lineages initially. Though, some J2b2-L283 clades in Central Balkans did participate in the formation of Proto-Albanians just as some R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 (the main candidate for Proto-Albanoids so far but not all subclades). No wonder, to this day Carpathian (karpë) and Beskidy(bjeshkë) are etymologies of a remnant Albanoid-like language from Bronze/Iron Age.
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Dardapara was a Thracian toponym though and suffix like -para -dava were typical Thracian/Dacian which meant 'city', 'fortress' etc such as 'Bessapara' and is not really possible in Albanian today. You don't see these kind of toponyms in Illyria.

Beskidy and Carpathian could simply be common Indo-European words, or common Dacian/Thracian and Illyrian, and not neccessarily directly related to Albanian.


EV-13 was found in Iron Age Moldova though. I personally do not trust Matzinger , he makes many false claims and as far as I'm concerned he hasn't provided any compelling evidence for his theories. Especially when he claims that Messapians were supposedly not Illyrians when they clearly were or at least came from Illyria since we also have a J2b2-L83 from Daunians.
 
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